Re: [VFB] Re: thread diameters

2014-02-25 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
Hi Paul;

I stand corrected,  Paul Mariner author of the Uni-products thread brochure!  

I dug my copy out and re-read the section on thread size, well said thorough 
explanation.

I understand what your saying about optical comparisons but that said, a visual 
examination and subsequent visual reference,  comparing thread properties 
whether flat, twisted, or bonded would work for me.

Thanks again; 

Wayneb

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [VFB] Re: thread diameters

2014-02-25 Thread Michael Bliss 
Paul,
You are always good for a "wow!"  I did not know this but makes sense now
that you said it.

Mike


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:42 AM, Paul  wrote:

> I'll answer the questions in one reply.
> Wayne: I'm not "Paul of UNI" because I've never worked for UNI. The
> founder of UNI-Products, the late Jean-Guy Côté, was a very good friend. I
> wrote the booklet for his company.
> Neville: One of the biggest misconceptions is that the companies named on
> the spools are thread manufacturers, none are. Thread manufacturers are
> huge companies, think DuPont for example. They have plants around the world
> servicing one of the largest industries, clothing. In my first post you'll
> note that I keep referring to "respoolers" because that's what the
> fly-tying thread companies are. They buy commercial spools of thread and
> respool them onto the little spools we use. You don't believe that Climax
> makes the material for their tippet spools? The reason why UNI labels now
> say "Spain" for example instead of "Canada" is because of a change in the
> way US Customs interpreted the importation regulations. Originally the
> amount of value added (spools, labels, wax, respooling) was sufficient to
> label "Made in Canada", they then decided the source of the base material
> was the controlling factor, so .
> Tony: I agree, the 10/0 is smaller than 8/0, 12/0(?) and 14/0(?).
> Optical measurement is meaningless for comparing a flat thread to a
> twisted filament thread. What are you going to measure, the flat side or
> the thin side?
> Breaking strength is measurable, but doesn't say anything about diameter.
> The article by Chris Helm unfortunately had quite a few errors.
>
> Paul
>
>
> On Sunday, February 23, 2014 1:21:49 AM UTC-4, wayne...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi All;
>>
>> Anyone know how 00 & 0 size thread compares to 8/0 or 6/0 tying thread?
>>
>> Wayneb
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on 
>> Android
>>
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-- 
Mike Bliss
Aloha from Hawaii

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Re: [VFB] Re: thread diameters

2014-02-24 Thread Alan Di Somma 
Perhaps the best way would be by breaking strength?


Sent from my iPad

Thank You,
Alan Di Somma
Phoenix, AZ.

Some mistakes are just too much fun to make only once.



> On Feb 24, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Paul  wrote:
> 
> I suppose I should keep my nose out of this but that's impossible. You can't 
> measure thread diameter, it's meaningless. You have threads that are flat 
> nylon, others that are twisted, others with multiplies, etc., etc. (what's 
> the diameter of a flat thread?). This was the problem with the X/0 system, it 
> had no standard. For a long time most respoolers played more or less fair and 
> advertised numbers that at least gave some relative idea of "size." Then, 
> along came a bunch that decided to game the system like Benecchi. They put 
> numbers like 12/0 on threads that were the same (same thread manufacturer) as 
> other respoolers 8/0. So all of sudden you could throw the X/0 system in the 
> crapper. The only reasonable approach is Denier or Decitex, both 
> weight/length measures.  And even here the relative "size" is only "accurate" 
> when referring to the same material. My little booklet, "How to Choose and 
> Use Fly-tying Thread" explains this and gives a correlation for UNI-Threads. 
> Paul
> 
>> On Sunday, February 23, 2014 1:21:49 AM UTC-4, wayne...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All;
>> 
>> Anyone know how 00 & 0 size thread compares to 8/0 or 6/0 tying thread?
>> 
>> Wayneb
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>> 
> 
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Re: [VFB] Re: thread diameters

2014-02-24 Thread Anthony Spezio 
In my tying that I was doing, By feel, the Gudebrod 10/0 actually was finer 
than the 14/0. I also found that the 14/0 built up faster than the 10/0 when 
wrapping it on a hook. This tells me that it is a heavier thread than the 10/0. 
 My favorite thread is still the Gudebrod 10/0.
Tony



On Monday, February 24, 2014 9:55 AM, "wayneb22...@yahoo.com" 
 wrote:
  
Hi Paul; 
Are you the Paul of Uni-products? 
I have a copy of your thread brochure, have to re-read it this evening.  From 
what I recall, it's a good treatise on fly tying thread. 
I still think some type of visual comparison under low magnification should 
show relative size differences in threads.  Not sure how to deal with the 
different thread profiles but, then again threads like Danville flat waxed 
nylon are pretty big flat or twisted.  
Thanks; 
Wayneb 
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android   




 From:  Paul ; 
To:  ; 
Subject:  [VFB] Re: thread diameters 
Sent:  Mon, Feb 24, 2014 3:35:59 PM 
 

I suppose I should keep my nose out of this but that's impossible. You can't 
measure thread diameter, it's meaningless. You have threads that are flat 
nylon, others that are twisted, others with multiplies, etc., etc. (what's the 
diameter of a flat thread?). This was the problem with the X/0 system, it had 
no standard. For a long time most respoolers played more or less fair and 
advertised numbers that at least gave some relative idea of "size." Then, along 
came a bunch that decided to game the system like Benecchi. They put numbers 
like 12/0 on threads that were the same (same thread manufacturer) as other 
respoolers 8/0. So all of sudden you could throw the X/0 system in the crapper. 
The only reasonable approach is Denier or Decitex, both weight/length measures. 
 And even here the relative "size" is only "accurate" when referring to the 
same material. My little booklet, "How to Choose and Use Fly-tying Thread" 
explains this and gives a correlation for
 UNI-Threads. 
Paul

On Sunday, February 23, 2014 1:21:49 AM UTC-4, wayne...@yahoo.com wrote:
Hi All; 
>Anyone know how 00 & 0 size thread compares to 8/0 or 6/0 tying thread? 
>Wayneb 
>Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android  
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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-24 Thread Gary Webb 
If we could just have a thread that is finer than a human hair and stronger
than a steel cable  I think the threads we now have available are
excellent.
Fingers (sense of touch) are a great way to measure.  You can feel the
difference in thickness between one and two pieces of cigarette paper.
Probably even finer. Pretty amazing.


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 4:07 AM, Thomas R. Eckert
wrote:

> I "Mensuren" with my Fingers, for my tying purposes it is precise enough.
>
> Thomas
> (Von Unterwegs gesendet)
>
>
> Am 24.02.2014 um 02:24 schrieb "wayneb22...@yahoo.com" <
> wayneb22...@yahoo.com>:
>
> There's probably some way to optically measure it, like comparing known
> line widths with a low power microscope or something.
>
> Hmm, has me thinking.
>
> Wayneb
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on 
> Android<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>
>
>  --
> * From: * Allan Fish ;
> * To: * vfb-mail@googlegroups.com ;
> * Cc: * vfb-mail@googlegroups.com ;
> * Subject: * Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters
> * Sent: * Mon, Feb 24, 2014 12:53:07 AM
>
>   Wayne,  understood. But measuring OD on  crushable material is
> difficult. Try it yourself.  How many measurements do you average?  Is the
> uniformity sufficient that measurements at a given point agree with
> measurements a yard away or 5 yards away or..
>
> Maybe you should come up with a new standard for thread measurements - BH
> Units.
>
> Get out yr old micrometer and go for it.
>
> Al
>
>
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Re: [VFB] Re: thread diameters

2014-02-24 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
Hi Paul;

Are you the Paul of Uni-products?

I have a copy of your thread brochure, have to re-read it this evening.  >From 
what I recall, it's a good treatise on fly tying thread.

I still think some type of visual comparison under low magnification should 
show relative size differences in threads.  Not sure how to deal with the 
different thread profiles but, then again threads like Danville flat waxed 
nylon are pretty big flat or twisted. 

Thanks;

Wayneb

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-24 Thread Thomas R. Eckert 
I "Mensuren" with my Fingers, for my tying purposes it is precise enough.

Thomas
(Von Unterwegs gesendet)


> Am 24.02.2014 um 02:24 schrieb "wayneb22...@yahoo.com" 
> :
> 
> 
> There's probably some way to optically measure it, like comparing known line 
> widths with a low power microscope or something.
> 
> Hmm, has me thinking.
> 
> Wayneb
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
> 
> From: Allan Fish ; 
> To: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com ; 
> Cc: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com ; 
> Subject: Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters 
> Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 12:53:07 AM 
> 
> Wayne,  understood. But measuring OD on  crushable material is difficult. Try 
> it yourself.  How many measurements do you average?  Is the uniformity 
> sufficient that measurements at a given point agree with measurements a yard 
> away or 5 yards away or..
> 
> Maybe you should come up with a new standard for thread measurements - BH 
> Units. 
> 
> Get out yr old micrometer and go for it.
> 
> Al
> 
> 
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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Anthony Spezio 
Chris Helm did an article on tying thread with a bunch of different company 
threads giving thread sizes and strength of each thread. You might Google it up 
and see if it is on the internet. I have the article somewhere in that room you 
have been in. You know why I don't know where it is.
Tony



On Sunday, February 23, 2014 7:52 PM, Allan Fish  wrote:
  
On 2/23/14, 8:36 PM, wayneb22...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Nah, a 2.65gram weight or in other words a modern US penny!

Now you're going to have to specify where you drill the hole in the 
penny, what kind of not you tie, length of tag end..WHOA!  You just 
defaced money!  You're headed to jail.  Sorry.  Do not pass go.  Do not 
collect $200.

Maybe we should just forget it and hope we eventually get weather warm 
enough to fish!

With any luck they won't be generating on the White four weeks from now, 
but don't count on it.  WIth all the rain and/or snow melt through the 
region this winter, I may not even bring any fishing gear.


af

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Allan Fish 

On 2/23/14, 8:36 PM, wayneb22...@yahoo.com wrote:

Nah, a 2.65gram weight or in other words a modern US penny!


Now you're going to have to specify where you drill the hole in the 
penny, what kind of not you tie, length of tag end..WHOA!  You just 
defaced money!  You're headed to jail.  Sorry.  Do not pass go.  Do not 
collect $200.


Maybe we should just forget it and hope we eventually get weather warm 
enough to fish!


With any luck they won't be generating on the White four weeks from now, 
but don't count on it.  WIth all the rain and/or snow melt through the 
region this winter, I may not even bring any fishing gear.


af

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
Nah, a 2.65gram weight or in other words a modern US penny!

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Allan Fish 
And how do you hold it?  Do you stretch it at a specified force?  Oops - 25 gm. 
weight was too much - the thread broke. 😠

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 23, 2014, at 8:24 PM, "wayneb22...@yahoo.com"  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> There's probably some way to optically measure it, like comparing known line 
> widths with a low power microscope or something.
> 
> Hmm, has me thinking.
> 
> Wayneb
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
> 
> From: Allan Fish ; 
> To: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com ; 
> Cc: vfb-mail@googlegroups.com ; 
> Subject: Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters 
> Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 12:53:07 AM 
> 
> Wayne,  understood. But measuring OD on  crushable material is difficult. Try 
> it yourself.  How many measurements do you average?  Is the uniformity 
> sufficient that measurements at a given point agree with measurements a yard 
> away or 5 yards away or..
> 
> Maybe you should come up with a new standard for thread measurements - BH 
> Units. 
> 
> Get out yr old micrometer and go for it.
> 
> Al
> 
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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
There's probably some way to optically measure it,  like comparing known line 
widths with a low power microscope or something. 

Hmm, has me thinking.

Wayneb

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
There's probably some way to optically measure it,  like comparing known line 
widths with a low power microscope or something. 

Hmm, has me thinking.

Wayneb

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
There's probably some way to optically measure it,  like comparing known line 
widths with a low power microscope or something. 

Hmm, has me thinking.

Wayneb

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
There's probably some way to optically measure it,  like comparing known line 
widths with a low power microscope or something. 

Hmm, has me thinking.

Wayneb

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Allan Fish 
Wayne,  understood. But measuring OD on  crushable material is difficult. Try 
it yourself.  How many measurements do you average?  Is the uniformity 
sufficient that measurements at a given point agree with measurements a yard 
away or 5 yards away or..

Maybe you should come up with a new standard for thread measurements - BH 
Units. 

Get out yr old micrometer and go for it.
Al

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
Hi Alan;

Denier designation is definitely better!  

But the engineer in me wants a measurement of outside diameter! 

Wayneb

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Alan Di Somma 
That should have read" SPLAIN"


Sent from my iPad

Thank You,
Alan Di Somma
Phoenix, AZ.

Some mistakes are just too much fun to make only once.



> On Feb 23, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Alan Di Somma  wrote:
> 
> It does. Pleases plain better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> Thank You,
> Alan Di Somma
> Phoenix, AZ.
> 
> Some mistakes are just too much fun to make only once.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 23, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Allan Fish  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2/23/14, 10:42 AM, wayneb22...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> I wish manufacturers would list the actual diameter of thread but, I guess 
>>> that would be asking too much!
>>> 
>>> I can't think of how to measure it myself without compressing it, perhaps a 
>>> tippet gauge?
>> Wayne,
>> 
>> That's what makes the "Denier" system a tad better.  It's a true 
>> measurement, I think.  Although I could have been lead astray.
>> 
>> IF I remember right (always a problem any more) 140 denier is fairly 
>> equivalent to the old 3/0 (think Danville prewaxed).  6/0 was in the area of 
>> 80 denier, 8/0 in the area of 60 denier.  The higher the denier, the heavier 
>> the thread.
>> 
>> Here's the definition of "denier" I found on the internet.:
>> A unit of fineness for rayon, nylon, and silk fibers, based on 
>> a standard mass per length of 1 gram per 9,000 meters of yarn.
>> So all you have to do is take 9,000 meters (5.6 miles) of yarn and weigh it.
>> 
>> Of course the tensile strength is highly dependent on the material used to 
>> make the thread.
>> 
>>  I hope this hasn't totally muddled the issue.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Alan Di Somma 
It does. Pleases plain better.


Sent from my iPad

Thank You,
Alan Di Somma
Phoenix, AZ.

Some mistakes are just too much fun to make only once.



> On Feb 23, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Allan Fish  wrote:
> 
>> On 2/23/14, 10:42 AM, wayneb22...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I wish manufacturers would list the actual diameter of thread but, I guess 
>> that would be asking too much!
>> 
>> I can't think of how to measure it myself without compressing it, perhaps a 
>> tippet gauge?
> Wayne,
> 
> That's what makes the "Denier" system a tad better.  It's a true measurement, 
> I think.  Although I could have been lead astray.
> 
> IF I remember right (always a problem any more) 140 denier is fairly 
> equivalent to the old 3/0 (think Danville prewaxed).  6/0 was in the area of 
> 80 denier, 8/0 in the area of 60 denier.  The higher the denier, the heavier 
> the thread.
> 
> Here's the definition of "denier" I found on the internet.:
> A unit of fineness for rayon, nylon, and silk fibers, based on 
> a standard mass per length of 1 gram per 9,000 meters of yarn.
> So all you have to do is take 9,000 meters (5.6 miles) of yarn and weigh it.
> 
> Of course the tensile strength is highly dependent on the material used to 
> make the thread.
> 
>  I hope this hasn't totally muddled the issue.
> 
> 
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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Allan Fish 

On 2/23/14, 10:42 AM, wayneb22...@yahoo.com wrote:


I wish manufacturers would list the actual diameter of thread but, I 
guess that would be asking too much!


I can't think of how to measure it myself without compressing it, 
perhaps a tippet gauge?



Wayne,

That's what makes the "Denier" system a tad better.  It's a true 
measurement, I think.  Although I could have been lead astray.


IF I remember right (always a problem any more) 140 denier is fairly 
equivalent to the old 3/0 (think Danville prewaxed).  6/0 was in the 
area of 80 denier, 8/0 in the area of 60 denier.  The higher the denier, 
the heavier the thread.


Here's the definition of "denier" I found on the internet.:
A unit of fineness for rayon, nylon, and silk fibers, based on
a standard mass per length of 1 gram per 9,000 meters of yarn.
So all you have to do is take 9,000 meters (5.6 miles) of yarn and weigh it.

Of course the tensile strength is highly dependent on the material used 
to make the thread.


 I hope this hasn't totally muddled the issue.


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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread wayneb22...@yahoo.com 
Thanks Alan & Thomas

I wish manufacturers would list the actual diameter of thread but, I guess that 
would be asking too much!

I can't think of how to measure it myself without compressing it, perhaps a 
tippet gauge?

Wayne

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Anthony Spezio 
The 00 and 0 thread is heavier than 8/0
I use 0 silk for wrapping bamboo rods.
Tony



On Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:32 AM, Allan Fish  wrote:
  
Thomas has it right. It's much heavier.  

The old measuring systems varied from manufacturer to manufacturer as
well as many different "standardized" systems.  So it's very difficult
to compare.  BUt standard heavier threads for rod building were 0, 00
and A.

af



On 2/23/14, 12:21 AM, wayneb22...@yahoo.com wrote: 
Hi All; 
>Anyone know how 00 & 0 size thread compares to
8/0 or 6/0 tying thread? 
>Wayneb 
>Sent from
Yahoo Mail on Android  
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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Allan Fish 

Thomas has it right. It's much heavier.

The old measuring systems varied from manufacturer to manufacturer as 
well as many different "standardized" systems.  So it's very difficult 
to compare.  BUt standard heavier threads for rod building were 0, 00 and A.


af



On 2/23/14, 12:21 AM, wayneb22...@yahoo.com wrote:


Hi All;

Anyone know how 00 & 0 size thread compares to 8/0 or 6/0 tying thread?

Wayneb

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 



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Re: [VFB] RE: thread diameters

2014-02-23 Thread Thomas R. Eckert 
As far as I remember, the 00 & 0 sitze threads are for Rod Building purposes.

Thomas
(Von Unterwegs gesendet)


> Am 23.02.2014 um 06:21 schrieb "wayneb22...@yahoo.com" 
> :
> 
> 
> Hi All;
> 
> Anyone know how 00 & 0 size thread compares to 8/0 or 6/0 tying thread?
> 
> Wayneb
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
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