> Sanseverino (writing in 1620) seems to have been re-actionary in his
views.
> In his preface he says
>
> It seems to me that one ought to play the Spanish guitar with full
strokes,
> and not otherwise, because playing with diminutions, legature or
dissonance
> is more suited to the playing of the
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> > At this point we probably part company as to how we interpret notes on
> > the 4th course and 5th courses. I think one
> > should take into account the fact that all notes on these course will
> sound
> > an octave
> At this point we probably part company as to how we interpret notes on
> the 4th course and 5th courses. I think one
> should take into account the fact that all notes on these course will
sound
> an octave above more prominently than the bourdon and when
> transcribing the music you should put
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> And that is not at all difficult. So why a D instead of an E?
Yes - of course you can play it! I was doing it on the computer which
enables you to put in notes or arrange the chords in a way you can't on the
guitar - to ex
> > > --f f
> > > --h--i
> > > --f
> > > --f---
> > > --f-
(p. 61, line 2)
> 7. The E is lacking in this chord because there is nowhere you can play
it.
> It would have to be on the 5th course stopped at the 7th fret. This
> explains why there is a D (a non-harmonic ton
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
Hi Lex
I thought you said you were going to be busy for the next few days so feel
free to ignore this message or reply later. It is a long one.
> Strumming was done over any number of strings, even over one.
> Apparently Corbetta sometimes
[on example p.69, line5, bar 2]
> > A 3-part chord with a doubled 5th! He could have intended to have only
two
> > parts, why not? I's better anyway.
>
> The point is that he has indicated that it is to be strummed. If he
wanted
> it played as you suggest he would have indicated that it is to be
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
Hi Lex
> > even more clearly F# G A. The G must rise. If it was a dominant 7th it
> > doesn't
> > resolve - there is no F# in the final chord.
>
> I noticed that. It's just that mr.Corbetta is breaking the r
(Longish message)
Hi Monica.
> I'm sorry but I think you are mistaken. If you leave out the 4th course
(d)
> and put the 1st course (e) what you actually have is a second inversion of
> the
> diminished triad on the leading note. There is a very distinct difference
> between this and the domina
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
I think our messages are getting crossed.
> And how about p. 61, line 2 ? Would you leave out any course from this
> chord:
>
> --f f
> --h--i
> --f
> --f---
> --f-
>
No I wouldn't.
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
I am pasting two messages together to try and simplify things...
First message...
> Maybe there are different ways to look at it.
>
> > > > > (a)---a
> > > > > ---d -c --dc-
> > >
> It's not a dominant 7th. It's a G major chord (without a 3rd). I tried it
> both ways on my guitar.
In re-entrant tuning?
> the first course is to be left out of the
> previous chord. You do have to get used to notation and try different
> options. He does this quite often.
>
> --
> If you were to include the open courses you would completely alter the
> progression.
That is the problem indeed. I could say in turn that including the d of the
4th course is 'altering' the progression. And that this d is going
nowhere... (I would leave it out on p. 61 as well. I think this one
> I am a bit confused here. The chord progressions are different.
Maybe there are different ways to look at it.
> > > > (a)---a
> > > > ---d -c --dc-
> > > > ---c c - a--
> > > > ---e e -(a)-
> > > > (a)---a---
(Page 69, fifth line, 2nd bar.)
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> > > options. He does this quite often.
> > >
> > > a
> > > ---d c d--
> > > ---c c a--
> > > ---e e a-
> > > -
> I am a bit confused here. The chord progressions are different.
Maybe there are different ways to look at it.
> > > > (a)---a
> > > > ---d -c --dc-
> > > > ---c c - a--
> > > > ---e e -(a)-
> > > > (a)---a---
(Page 69, fifth line, 2nd bar.)
An
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> How does this compare to a situation like p.58, line 2, first chord? Apart
> from the rhythm the progression is the same. My point is that in
> transpositions of the situation above (p. 69, 5th line, bar 3) Corbetta
> often gives
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> > > options. He does this quite often.
> > >
> > > a
> > > ---d c d--
> > > ---c c a--
> > > ---e e a-
> > > -
Sorry about that - wires crossed again.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "vl"
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 7:49 AM
Subject: *** SPAM *** [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entra
From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > It's not a dominant 7th. It's a G major chord (without a 3rd). I
> > tried it
> > both ways on my guitar. Yes, the first course is to be left out of
> > the
> > previous chord. You do have to get used to notation and try different
> > options. H
Dom7th was attached to the sentence before, where it said 2nd line
bar 2. (p.69)
On Oct 24, 2006, at 2:30 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>> 2nd line bar 2 works perfectly this way,
>>> making a dom7th. 5th line bar 3, it looks like a dot eliminating the
>>> first course which I would guess applies to t
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
I
> > know it is a 6/4 chord but that wouldn't worry me.
>
> (p.69, line 5, bar 2. Last beat). Only that the low d on the 4th course,
> sounding under the bass g, is not going anywhere. (In re-entrant tuning
this
> problem wo
> The second bar on the 5th line seems unproblematic to me. I would play
the
> open 3rd and 4th courses. The c is just an ascending appogiatura to the
d.
> The chord progression is Ib IV(c) V I. The bass line goes F# G A D.
I
> know it is a 6/4 chord but that wouldn't worry me.
(p.69, line
Subject: *** SPAM *** [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> 2nd line bar 2 works perfectly this way,
> > making a dom7th. 5th line bar 3, it looks like a dot eliminating the
> > first course which I would guess applies to the last eighth strum
> > too.
It's not a do
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> It should be p. 69, 2nd line, bar 2 (the note in the tablature system
> indicates the strum) and 5th line, bar 2 (idem, the last beat).
Of
course! I see what you mean. (I play this piece - I should be so dumb!).
The second bar on t
I find it a very natural technique to rest my thumb on
> the fifth course when I make a strum with two or three fingers. I
> wonder if Corbetta did that.
We don't really know. I would say that if any finger (or thumb) is supposed
to be on a string somewhere, there should be an indication in the t
On Oct 23, 2006, at 6:52 PM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
>
>>> Let me give just two
>> examples
>>> that can cause headaches: p.69 2nd line, bar 2 and, more painful,
>>> 5th
>> line,
>>> bar 3 (last beat). What to do with open courses? I can come up with
>> several
>>> solutions, but essentially it i
l"
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:21 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings?
> Okay we must be talking about different books. The last page in my
> copy is written in French and says Septembre 1670 on the second line.
> Pity. I'd like to see what you are talking about.
&g
>> So do you have a MIDI file you could upload somewhere? I'd be
>> interested in hearing it.
>>
>
> I'm afraid not. It is a Django file which I could send you if if
> you have
> the Django program but I can't convert them to PDF files.
>
On Oct 23, 2006, at 7:53 PM, Craig Allen wrote:
> You c
Okay we must be talking about different books. The last page in my
copy is written in French and says Septembre 1670 on the second line.
Pity. I'd like to see what you are talking about.
How many books did Corbetta publish? I have 1643, 1648 and La
Guitarre Royalle 1670.
On Oct 23, 2006, at
Monica wrote:
>
>> So do you have a MIDI file you could upload somewhere? I'd be
>> interested in hearing it.
>
>I'm afraid not. It is a Django file which I could send you if if you have
>the Django program but I can't convert them to PDF files.
Monica,
You can output any file to a Postscript pr
On Oct 22, 2006, at 5:45 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
> In fact I was thinking of the ones where he doubles the suspended
> 4th on the
> 3rd and 5th courses and then resolves it on the 3rd course but not
> the 5th.
> An example of this in the Passacaille is on line 3, 2nd bar. The
> notation
> im
> > Let me give just two
> examples
> > that can cause headaches: p.69 2nd line, bar 2 and, more painful, 5th
> line,
> > bar 3 (last beat). What to do with open courses? I can come up with
> several
> > solutions, but essentially it is unclear.
> Sorry - I'm a bit confused but I think you can't
Hi Lex
>
> I think it is not always easy to decide which open courses should be
> included in the strum when the tablature doesn't give information (for
> example when dots are missing, with Corbetta). Let me give just two
examples
> that can cause headaches: p.69 2nd line, bar 2 and, more painful,
>
> The zeros are left out to save time and trouble and it is not really
> difficult to decide which to include. To me it is not logical to argue
that
> because this is so you have to decide whether letters or figures are to be
> left out. This saves nobody's time and trouble!
I think it is not
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings
> On Oct 22, 2006, at 4:35 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
>
> > I keyed it into my
> > computer so that I could listen to it because when you are playing
> > there are
> > other things to think about.The underlying harmonic
On Oct 22, 2006, at 4:35 AM, Monica Hall wrote:
> I keyed it into my
> computer so that I could listen to it because when you are playing
> there are
> other things to think about.The underlying harmonic structure is quite
> simple.
So do you have a MIDI file you could upload somewhere? I'd
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings
Dear Lex/List
This is really a personal message to Lex which I hope the rest of the list
will excuse.
Lex - all my messages to you come back "Delivery temporarily suspended".
You are getting my messages from the list. As I have a simil
Dear Monica,
I appreciate what you say. I'm glad to have you on the list.
> The point is - what do you measure Corbetta's music against? How do you
> establish the principles of a certain style? That's all I would like to
> know.
That is indeed the central question. Not so easy to do. I thi
Dear Lex
I must apologise - yet again! I really am very sorry. All I can say is that
I am sure that it is
my reputation which is
tarnished by my ill considered remarks, not yours.
>
> I learned from that, that such an exercise can only be useful if there is
> agreement on the principles of a cer
> > It has struck me in the past few years that certain leading scholars
have
> > changed their minds on the subject of the stringing of the five course
> > guitar in their writings. I just found some of our e-mail exchanges on
my
> > harddisk. I would suggest that we both play this fair, Dr. Hal
> It has struck me in the past few years that certain leading scholars have
> changed their minds on the subject of the stringing of the five course
> guitar in their writings. I just found some of our e-mail exchanges on my
> harddisk. I would suggest that we both play this fair, Dr. Hall.
Unless
> It has struck me in the past few years that certain leading scholars have
> changed their minds on the subject of the stringing of the five course
> guitar in their writings. I just found some of our e-mail exchanges on my
> harddisk. I would suggest that we both play this fair, Dr. Hall.
Unless
-Original Message-
From: Lex Eisenhardt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:03 AM
To: Monica Hall
Cc: vihuela
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings
>Not that unusual? If anyone on this list is still with us, you could
try
>Corbetta (1671
> from which they may have copied. They even could have written from memory,
> though that would have been difficult)
On the contrary - this is thought to be the way in which much baroque guitar
music circulated - which is why it varies. In the 17th century people
probably had better memories an
> I'm sorry to hear that you understand it like this. I was able to convince
> quite some well-informed colleagues.
Well - unless I know who they are I can't of course comment.
> I have considered all that. In a way all dissonant chords are 'altered
> alfabeto chords'. (Except indeed L) Standard
No open mind? I hope you'll
> forgive
> > me that I do not take your judgement as a yardstick.
>
> Sorry - but I can't take your judgement as any sort of yardstick whatever
> that is meant to mean.
Your judgement as a measure of my open-mindedness.
Your approach is entirely
> cerebral. These
> > Corbetta's harmony is by no means unique.
>
> > It is a feature of the
> > strummed repertoire. Nearly all of Corbetta's dissonance can be
explained
> in
> > this way.
>
> I simply do not agree with your view on Corbetta's style. Your
explanations
> do not make much sense to me. When I say his
Monica, List,
There is the risk that posts on such a specific subject get longer and
longer.
> Corbetta's harmony is by no means unique.
> It is a feature of the
> strummed repertoire. Nearly all of Corbetta's dissonance can be explained
in
> this way.
I simply do not agree with your view on C
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Why re-entrant tunings
> Apart from this specific case: who is to decide whether arguments are
> pseudo-academic. To take everything on the paper for granted is not
> necessarily 'more scientific'. The very unusual (maybe even unique)
harmonic
> lang
>
> I fully appreciate that. I think players should follow their own star but
> not try to justify their choices with pseudo-accademic arguments.
Apart from this specific case: who is to decide whether arguments are
pseudo-academic. To take everything on the paper for granted is not
necessarily '
> To defend my fellow players:
> We have a problem that researchers don't have. We sometimes are forced to
> make decisions to be able to perform the music. And on top of that we have
> to find ways to understand the music (and preferably appreciate it as
well),
> otherwise a good performance can
To defend my fellow players:
We have a problem that researchers don't have. We sometimes are forced to
make decisions to be able to perform the music. And on top of that we have
to find ways to understand the music (and preferably appreciate it as well),
otherwise a good performance cannot be the r
> > Players who think that somehow guitar music can and must conform to a
very
> narrow interpretation of the rules of music theory are following the wrong
> star altogether!
> >
> >
> As do scholars who think that the rules of music would not apply to the
> guitar
The emphasis is on narrow in
> I think especially for open air performance the plain gut basses of the
five
> course guitar are not very useful. The 'musica ruidosa' that Sanz speaks
of
> could refer to another (indoor?) situation. 'el que quiere taner guitarra
> para hazer musica ruidosa, o accompagnarse el baxo con alguno t
>
> Players who think that somehow guitar music can and must conform to a very
narrow interpretation of the rules of music theory are following the wrong
star altogether!
>
>
As do scholars who think that the rules of music would not apply to the
guitar
To get on or off this list see list i
Hola Monica!
> I was rather surprised to read the following when going through the
correspondence on Lutenet!
>
I said that:
> "For the guitar I see an entirely different cause: like the ukelele the
> instrument needed to be heard in the open air (imagine Spain or the New
> World). By having a
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