[VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details
I agree with Jocelyn. Chris - I find your posts refreshing and insightful and I enjoy listening to you playing the music. We are all on a voyage of discovery here and we don't have to come up with neat little answers to every question. Monica
[VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details
Well, if you were familiar with the work of Lynn Margulis, you would understand that I don't disparage the status of the parasite... There's a convincing argument that parasites were key to the evolution of complex cells, and consequently most of what we experience in life (re-entrant tuning included). But I am really thankful for this list, and for the work y'all do. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:09:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details I agree with Jocelyn. Chris - I find your posts refreshing and insightful and I enjoy listening to you playing the music. We are all on a voyage of discovery here and we don't have to come up with neat little answers to every question. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details
Well - there are parasites... and parasites... and you are clearly of the benign and useful sort... Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 2:50 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details Well, if you were familiar with the work of Lynn Margulis, you would understand that I don't disparage the status of the parasite... There's a convincing argument that parasites were key to the evolution of complex cells, and consequently most of what we experience in life (re-entrant tuning included). But I am really thankful for this list, and for the work y'all do. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 17, 2011 9:09:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details I agree with Jocelyn. Chris - I find your posts refreshing and insightful and I enjoy listening to you playing the music. We are all on a voyage of discovery here and we don't have to come up with neat little answers to every question. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details
I'd like to add my vote for the usefulness of these discussions. I don't have the benefit of a career studying the field, yet I gain the benefit of your scholarship. Parasitic on my part, but it significantly helps to inform my approach to the instrument. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, February 11, 2011 2:28:39 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details That's an interesting summary and very generous of you to say that you find Lex's and my discussion important as I often feel I am wasting everyone's time and getting very cross in the process. The etymology of the term motet is a fascinating topic in its own right. But we had better not start a discussion on that. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn [1]nels...@ecu.edu To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:48 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details Dear List, I listened to an entertaining talk yesterday afternoon on how research worked in the renaissance (it seems research didn't work so well, according to the speaker, who gave us some good laughs during his talk). The poet and scholar Poliziano (1454-1494) made a strong case for the correct spelling of the Roman poet's name, Vergil (Vergilius). His evidence, which was better than the evidence on the opposing side according to the professor giving the talk (such as the poet's spelling preference for his own name), has been ignored ever since--most of us know the poet as Virgil. The talk centered on why the truth was ignored and the difference between truth and influence: we consistently sacrifice truth forusefulness and custom, which is more influential. Some classicists in the room did bring up Virgil's word plays on his own name, and some other Latin and Italian spelling issues, but people generally appreciated his basic premise: that this sacrifice--usefulness over truth--is eventually to our detriment, even when the truth in the short run seems like it doesn't matter. Which brings me back to our conversation about etymology. I was surprised to read Ralf eschew the importance of the original meaning of a style, genre, or technique in musicbecause I happen to come to that particular question from the opposite direction: why wouldn't a performer or scholar in the field of early music want to understand a term's origins? Etymology might be interesting in itself and important in the study of language, but is of no use in a terminological discurse. In what way is the fact that the top voice of a polyphonic piece once was considered a texted version of an untexted clausula (and hence named 'motetus' - with words) relevant to the study of, say, Motets by Marc-Antoine Charpentier? We could argue the relevance of understanding the origins of the motet to an understanding of Charpentier's motets, and we could each make good points (perhaps while entirely convinced the other is wrong). But I'm more interested in how we decide to explore early musical techniques and performance practices. If we're brazen enough to perform music of the distant past, every detail and item of evidence we can find is vital to an understanding of any certain genre or performance practice, even when the final answer doesn't always seem to include many of the details. That's why I wouldn't want to teach the 17^th century French motet literature to students who haven't been through the earlier lectures on the substitute clausulae; in fact, the earlier course is officially a prerequisite for the later course at my school for just that reason. And that's why I find the evidentiary details in the discussion on bourdons between Monica and Lex and others on this list important. I'm grateful to them for taking the trouble to defend their viewpoints with specifics. Best wishes, Jocelyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:nels...@ecu.edu 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details
That's an interesting summary and very generous of you to say that you find Lex's and my discussion important as I often feel I am wasting everyone's time and getting very cross in the process. The etymology of the term motet is a fascinating topic in its own right. But we had better not start a discussion on that. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:48 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Virgil, Vergil, the usefulness of etymology or bourdon details Dear List, I listened to an entertaining talk yesterday afternoon on how research worked in the renaissance (it seems research didn't work so well, according to the speaker, who gave us some good laughs during his talk). The poet and scholar Poliziano (1454-1494) made a strong case for the correct spelling of the Roman poet's name, Vergil (Vergilius). His evidence, which was better than the evidence on the opposing side according to the professor giving the talk (such as the poet's spelling preference for his own name), has been ignored ever since--most of us know the poet as Virgil. The talk centered on why the truth was ignored and the difference between truth and influence: we consistently sacrifice truth forusefulness and custom, which is more influential. Some classicists in the room did bring up Virgil's word plays on his own name, and some other Latin and Italian spelling issues, but people generally appreciated his basic premise: that this sacrifice--usefulness over truth--is eventually to our detriment, even when the truth in the short run seems like it doesn't matter. Which brings me back to our conversation about etymology. I was surprised to read Ralf eschew the importance of the original meaning of a style, genre, or technique in musicbecause I happen to come to that particular question from the opposite direction: why wouldn't a performer or scholar in the field of early music want to understand a term's origins? Etymology might be interesting in itself and important in the study of language, but is of no use in a terminological discurse. In what way is the fact that the top voice of a polyphonic piece once was considered a texted version of an untexted clausula (and hence named 'motetus' - with words) relevant to the study of, say, Motets by Marc-Antoine Charpentier? We could argue the relevance of understanding the origins of the motet to an understanding of Charpentier's motets, and we could each make good points (perhaps while entirely convinced the other is wrong). But I'm more interested in how we decide to explore early musical techniques and performance practices. If we're brazen enough to perform music of the distant past, every detail and item of evidence we can find is vital to an understanding of any certain genre or performance practice, even when the final answer doesn't always seem to include many of the details. That's why I wouldn't want to teach the 17^th century French motet literature to students who haven't been through the earlier lectures on the substitute clausulae; in fact, the earlier course is officially a prerequisite for the later course at my school for just that reason. And that's why I find the evidentiary details in the discussion on bourdons between Monica and Lex and others on this list important. I'm grateful to them for taking the trouble to defend their viewpoints with specifics. Best wishes, Jocelyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
