Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Am Dienstag 06 März 2007 schrieb Tobias Pflug: If I might add my impression: Generally I think it is indeed quite likable. Just some thoughts : Looking at : http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_ the_super_star Hello, The first thing I noticed it the endless additional notes. That is not how things are done on Wikibooks - if you want to add comments then they have to go to the discussion page which is attached to each article page. Remember Wikibooks is not an Internet-Forum - it's about Books and you would not write a book this way. Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpM4pPfpqjG7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Am Dienstag 06 März 2007 schrieb Tobias Pflug: If I might add my impression: Generally I think it is indeed quite likable. Just some thoughts : Looking at : http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_ the_super_star Hello, The first thing I noticed it the endless additional notes. That is not how things are done on Wikibooks - if you want to add comments then they have to go to the discussion page which is attached to each article page. Remember Wikibooks is not an Internet-Forum - it's about Books and you would not write a book this way. Martin -- Martin Krischik mailto://[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgptMzFsl6ruA.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 22:29:35 +0100 Tobias Pflug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looking at : http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star my thoughts: 1. focus/structure: At the moment there is a bit of a lack of focus when I look at the page. The eye-catcher is more or less the box with the author/creator/etc meta information. The focus should however be on the actual text/body of the tip. So maybe the text should be in a (differently colored?) box to gain more attention and separate it from comments and meta info etc. Same goes with the info boxes for comments on the tip and the comments contents. I'd also suggest to maybe separate tips with horizontal lines (maybe even removing the info boxes..) Also what about perhaps indenting the comments a bit to the right? I totally agree. The page is too messy. I would rather have something looking like: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/502304 Also the vimtips should perhaps be like an archive so that one can write the best solutions in the wiki?
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Denis Perelyubskiy wrote: why don't we discuss that here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star :-) You and I started talking on that discussion page. I just wanted to say (to everyone) that now I think all comments would be better made here. I totally agree with you on the need to omit most comments. One change: if it matters, we could reserve a line (or two) for a list of contributors. This needs a decision. I favour the simple approach of omitting all names, but if that is too brutal, I like your idea of adding a list of contributors - it could be several lines, at the END of the tip. John
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Brian McKee wrote: One of the first things I was thinking about mirrors the above comments. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/ TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star has a bunch of thanks for the great tip! type comments with more useage info interspersed. I think those 'great tip' comments go to a separate page, while the 'use # or % instead' kind of comments need to be edited into the actual tip itself. But why keep the 'great tip' comments? The friendly atmosphere of the current Vim Tips web site is rather nice, but why put all the work of moving it to a wiki unless you make the tips more helpful? Unhelpful tips and unhelpful comments should be omitted. John
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
A few fundamental decisions need to be made so the conversion script
can produce a result that minimises future effort.
How will tips be found? Can there be a contents page? If so, the
script should generate a suitable list, perhaps for hand-tweaking.
Currently, the URL of the sample tip has form:
http:.../Tip_1:_the_super_star
One of the following would be better:
http:.../the_super_star
http:.../Tip_1
http:.../Tip_1_the_super_star
In thinking about the tip URL, consider how tips should evolve.
Would tips simply be added, so potentially there could be fifty
independent tips on searching? Or (particularly with important
topics like searching), would we hope that one day there would be
a single search tips page with links to tips on different aspects
of searching.
The sample tip starts with an info box:
author
created
complexity
as of Vim (version)
rating
As has been mentioned, the info box is pretty intrusive. The page
should start with the tip. Maintaining the data in the box seems
unecessarily difficult to me - can we omit it? We can't maintain the
rating. If retained, move the box to the end of the tip.
What will be done with the comments? As several people have noted,
many of the comments are not helpful for a potential user of a tip.
I think that eventually some brutal editing should omit most
comments. Ideally, we would incorporate useful comments into the
tip. Meanwhile, we could delete unhelpful comments while retaining
and rewording and reordering helpful comments.
If people agree that comments should be severely edited, I suggest
that the script should make the job easier by omitting the By...
On... box and replacing it with a simple tip separator. Using 'edit
this page' shows that currently each By... On... box occupies
eight source lines.
It might be helpful to temporarily retain the author and date by
replacing the By... On... box with a single source line (normal
text), something like this:
-{By sample user on March 8, 2001 14:51}-
I don't see any benefit from moving the comments to the discussion
page. Why set up the wiki in the first place unless there is an
intention to improve the tips? The discussion page should be
restricted to serious pondering of what editors should do with this
tip, and with related tips. The Great tip comments are just noise.
John
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Paul Irofti wrote: Back-ups are better made on the server side. For mediawiki a regular sqldump (maybe added in crontab) is all that is necessary. Good. But can we actually do that? I thought we were planning to use a system where we have no access to the server except via a wiki interface. John
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
John Beckett wrote: Brian McKee wrote: One of the first things I was thinking about mirrors the above comments. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/ TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star has a bunch of thanks for the great tip! type comments with more useage info interspersed. I think those 'great tip' comments go to a separate page, while the 'use # or % instead' kind of comments need to be edited into the actual tip itself. But why keep the 'great tip' comments? The friendly atmosphere of the current Vim Tips web site is rather nice, but why put all the work of moving it to a wiki unless you make the tips more helpful? Unhelpful tips and unhelpful comments should be omitted. John Moving the tip body to a wiki page and the comments to its talk page can (IIUC) be automated. /Then/ the tip author (or maintainer, etc.) can archive the talk page, remove empty comments (of the great tip kind), refactor useful comments into the tip body, etc. Best regards, Tony. -- 43rd Law of Computing: Anything that can go wr fortune: Segmentation violation -- Core dumped
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
A.J.Mechelynck wrote: Moving the tip body to a wiki page and the comments to its talk page can (IIUC) be automated. /Then/ the tip author (or maintainer, etc.) can archive the talk page, remove empty comments (of the great tip kind), refactor useful comments into the tip body, etc. My feeling is that it would be more helpful to the editor if all the comments were put underneath the tip, as at present. That seems much less effort when refactoring to me. Someone needs to try this to compare the two approaches. John
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Hello, John Beckett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A.J.Mechelynck wrote: Moving the tip body to a wiki page and the comments to its talk page can (IIUC) be automated. /Then/ the tip author (or maintainer, etc.) can archive the talk page, remove empty comments (of the great tip kind), refactor useful comments into the tip body, etc. My feeling is that it would be more helpful to the editor if all the comments were put underneath the tip, as at present. That seems much less effort when refactoring to me. Someone needs to try this to compare the two approaches. Using the talk page seems more natural to me when there are important changes (refactoring) to discuss on the organisation of a tip. I'm no big fan of having several bug reports (or alike) in the tip page. -- Luc Hermitte
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 08:39:23PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: Paul Irofti wrote: Back-ups are better made on the server side. For mediawiki a regular sqldump (maybe added in crontab) is all that is necessary. Good. But can we actually do that? I thought we were planning to use a system where we have no access to the server except via a wiki interface. John The admins must keep back-ups, I'm sure we can talk to them. After all, admins are humans too (-:
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 11:03:46AM +0100, A.J.Mechelynck wrote: John Beckett wrote: Brian McKee wrote: One of the first things I was thinking about mirrors the above comments. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/ TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star has a bunch of thanks for the great tip! type comments with more useage info interspersed. I think those 'great tip' comments go to a separate page, while the 'use # or % instead' kind of comments need to be edited into the actual tip itself. But why keep the 'great tip' comments? The friendly atmosphere of the current Vim Tips web site is rather nice, but why put all the work of moving it to a wiki unless you make the tips more helpful? Unhelpful tips and unhelpful comments should be omitted. I think this would imply a lot of manual labor and would render the porting scripts obsolete. And why is everyone so eager to delete the great-tip!!! kthnxbye!! comments?! They raise moral, encourage further contribution and counts as positive feedback (specially for first time tip-posters). Plus they're harmless. John Moving the tip body to a wiki page and the comments to its talk page can (IIUC) be automated. /Then/ the tip author (or maintainer, etc.) can archive the talk page, remove empty comments (of the great tip kind), refactor useful comments into the tip body, etc. I couldn't agree more. All comments should be placed in the talk page (it's just natural) and changes generated by the discussions should be added (and optionally thanked) on the front page. [--snip--]
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 at 1:26pm, Tom Purl wrote: Here's my view of where we are regarding the Vim Tips wiki conversion project: 1. The Google wiki seems to be a poor option due to the difficulty involved in registering. 2. Multiple other wiki engines have been discussed, and the clear favorite seems to be a site built on top of the Mediawiki application. 3. Of all of the sites that offer free wiki hosting using Mediawiki, Wikibooks seems to be the most favored. Note: These are all my opinions based on what I've read. I hope to hear from everyone that has a different perspective :) Ok, so based on my version of reality, I think that we should proceed with the following actions: 0. I'll create the following page on the Vim Tips chapter of the Vim book on Wikibooks (whew!): * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox 1. All of the people who wrote tip conversion scripts before should update them so that the output format is Wikipedia markup, not Google markup * I apologize to the script writers for making them do more work. Hopefully, the necessary changes to your scripts will be small. * Also, please note that I _don't_ think that anyone should contribute a new script to this effort. We already have three very capable scripts that can probably get the job done very well, so I don't think that the effort would be worthwhile for anyone else. 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed above. 3. The vim community will come to a consensus on the best format for the tips, and we will use the best script for the job. 4. Consensus achieved!!! 5. We will automate the task of converting all of the tips. 6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make sure that they look good. 7. The invisible hand of The Wiki will then gradually make our wonderful collection of Vim tips even more awesome than they've ever been before! ;D So, what do you guys think? Tom Purl I have been reading posts on this subject with interest and think that this is going to be a good decision. My only concern is on how we are planning to support the existing rating system going forward and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a discussion tab on the same page). -- Thanks, Hari -- Thanks, Hari Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Hari Krishna Dara wrote: [...] I have been reading posts on this subject with interest and think that this is going to be a good decision. My only concern is on how we are planning to support the existing rating system going forward and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a discussion tab on the same page). -- Thanks, Hari Comments can go on the wiki talk page associated with a given tip. If you look at talk pages on ??.wikipedia.org, you'll see that in practice they mostly adhere to a rather uniform format. If the case warrants, part or all of the comments can later be incorporated (by the tip author or maintainer) into the main page of the tip. Best regards, Tony. -- hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict: 88. Every single time you press the 'Get mail' button...it does get new mail.
RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
From: Hari Krishna Dara, Tue, March 06, 2007 11:33 am My only concern is on how we are planning to support the existing rating system going forward I don't see how this can be accomplished in a wiki, but on the plus side we'll be able to categorize and structure the tips better, as well as link between. and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a discussion tab on the same page). I agree, is there any way the porting process can push comments to each tip's respective discussion tab? -- Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6-Mar-07, at 3:34 PM, Denis Perelyubskiy wrote: On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:53 -0700, Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: From: Hari Krishna Dara, Tue, March 06, 2007 11:33 am and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a discussion tab on the same page). I agree, is there any way the porting process can push comments to each tip's respective discussion tab? why don't we discuss that here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/ TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star :-) Seriously though, as I had mentioned on the discussion page, for me as a user of the tip, it is horribly counter-productive to go and read twenty-five thousands comments on a page. I'd much rather just read a perfect tip. This assumes, of course, that tip contributors care about me as a user. I hope they do :) Wikipedia model seems to work great. One page. All the information. Discussion on a separate page. One change: if it matters, we could reserve a line (or two) for a list of contributors. This information is available from the history page for those who care to look anyway, but maybe people care about their names being mentioned. Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be integrated into the body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages, and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually we'll be done. In any case, I think this will be an extremely useful resource (especially if we could then put VIM's documentation on there, and cross-link) One of the first things I was thinking about mirrors the above comments. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/ TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star has a bunch of thanks for the great tip! type comments with more useage info interspersed. I think those 'great tip' comments go to a separate page, while the 'use # or % instead' kind of comments need to be edited into the actual tip itself. I don't think that can be automated though - so the question is comments to a separate page and edited back in? or all on one page and edited over to the secondary page... Brian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin) Comment: Verify this email or encrypt your email for free - see gnupg.org iD8DBQFF7dUhGnOmb9xIQHQRAlpVAJ45MZO4aj5DMVxdnN2Kvd85g6PoAwCff2AG KdJM5sFvk/OcuLBVTVGeF6Q= =MnvL -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, March 6, 2007 2:34 pm, Denis Perelyubskiy wrote: Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be integrated into the body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages, and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually we'll be done. I agree mostly. The process of moving the tips from vim.org to the wiki host can be automated. Ideally, I also think that it would be a good idea to refactor some comments into the body of some tips, but I certainly don't think that it's necessary for every tip. For example, I wrote tip number 1280 which, in hindsight, is pretty lame. My tip has one comment from someone who agrees that my tip is lame :) Also, I imagine that about 5 people a year read this tip, and those people probably were looking for something else anyways. In that situation, do we *really* need to merge the comment with the tip? No one uses the tip, and the comment's pretty pointless. Why don't we just ignore it? On the other hand, there are some tips that are used hundreds of times a week. These tips will probably be refactored and updated very quickly due to the sheer number of eyeballs reading it. So I guess what I'm saying is, what's wrong with waiting for the community to refactor these tips using guidelines from the wikibook admins? Thanks! Tom Purl
RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:00:30 -0600 (CST), Tom Purl [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Tue, March 6, 2007 2:34 pm, Denis Perelyubskiy wrote: Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be integrated into the body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages, and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually we'll be done. [snip] So I guess what I'm saying is, what's wrong with waiting for the community to refactor these tips using guidelines from the wikibook admins? Sorry, was not clear. That's what I am arguing for as well. I am not saying let's have admins do all the work before the site goes live. I am saying let's leave things the way they are, provide a template, and slowly set about refactoring tips (encouraging users to do the same). I haven't checked, but if there is a wikipedia-style this page still needs your attention notification that can be placed on the page, we could do that as well. so, i propose we move to agreeing what the format should be. -denis
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, 2007-03-06 at 18:38 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * Zdenek Sekera ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: -Original Message- From: Spencer Collyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 March 2007 08:31 Cc: Vim Mailing List Subject: Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:18:13 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote: And check out http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox to see how it parsed tip #1. Looks good. Only comment I have is it might be better if the 'By' and 'On' lines for the comments were on the same line. Anything that allows more useful info on a screen at once is an improvement in my eyes. Done. Yes, I very much agree, use screen real estate for useful info as much as possible. Otherwise good IMHO! If I might add my impression: Generally I think it is indeed quite likable. Just some thoughts : Looking at : http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star my thoughts: 1. focus/structure: At the moment there is a bit of a lack of focus when I look at the page. The eye-catcher is more or less the box with the author/creator/etc meta information. The focus should however be on the actual text/body of the tip. So maybe the text should be in a (differently colored?) box to gain more attention and separate it from comments and meta info etc. Same goes with the info boxes for comments on the tip and the comments contents. I'd also suggest to maybe separate tips with horizontal lines (maybe even removing the info boxes..) Also what about perhaps indenting the comments a bit to the right? 2. formatting: I think tex is right with its default formatting in which line length is rather short. I think it would be nice if line breaks could be added ? However while typing this I realize that this would suck when you break up code.. I realize that currently it's still about figuring out how to properly parse/convert the content etc.. just wanted to shout out what I have on my mind about it. thanks to those doing all the work, looking forward to use the wiki-tips already.. regards, Tobi
RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:24:09 -0800, Denis Perelyubskiy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [snip] so, i propose we move to agreeing what the format should be. ..and after thinking about this a bit more: - format? - karma/rating (i think someone already brought it up). How do we do this here? The use seems to be that you can browse by scores. Do people do this? Would the tips maybe just become intrinsically useful by nature of being edited by many people? - difficulty - do we need this? what's the use-case for that? do people come looking for easy tips? it appears they may be looking for a) useful tips (item above), or for b) tips applicable to their situation (tag-related tips). - date. who cares? anything else? -denis
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
My apologies for barging in this discussion this late. However, I wanted to make sure all alternatives are being given a fair chance. It seems that wikibooks.org is the most popular choice. I just want to throw out a couple of other free, hosted Wiki alternatives for people to look at: o http://pbwiki.com/ http://yummy.pbwiki.com/ o http://jot.com (acquired by Google). Sample wiki http://dojo.jot.com/WikiHome o http://wikia.com -- like wikibooks, uses mediawiki o http://wikispaces -- run of the mill o http://www.wetpaint.com/ o http://www.wikidot.com/ I really like pbwiki and jot. Finally, this has been voiced before and I just wanted to add my 2c -- I'm not sure if a general purpose Wiki is the best solution for something as specific as a collection of Tips. The notion of rating, comments etc doesn't come naturally to a Wiki. IMHO, the best solution is to setup a blog. There are several free Wordpress based blog services. There are several free Wordpress plugins to implement rating for posts, most popular posts and such. Commenting is built in. The more I think about it, the more it seems like the perfect solution to me. Thoughts? Diwaker -- Web/Blog/Gallery: http://floatingsun.net/blog
RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 at 12:34pm, Denis Perelyubskiy wrote: On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:53 -0700, Steve Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: From: Hari Krishna Dara, Tue, March 06, 2007 11:33 am and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a discussion tab on the same page). I agree, is there any way the porting process can push comments to each tip's respective discussion tab? why don't we discuss that here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star :-) Seriously though, as I had mentioned on the discussion page, for me as a user of the tip, it is horribly counter-productive to go and read twenty-five thousands comments on a page. I'd much rather just read a perfect tip. This assumes, of course, that tip contributors care about me as a user. I hope they do :) Wikipedia model seems to work great. One page. All the information. Discussion on a separate page. One change: if it matters, we could reserve a line (or two) for a list of contributors. This information is available from the history page for those who care to look anyway, but maybe people care about their names being mentioned. Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be integrated into the body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages, and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually we'll be done. In any case, I think this will be an extremely useful resource (especially if we could then put VIM's documentation on there, and cross-link) I agree, without updating the original tip based on the feedback from comments, it is incredibly painful to go through all the comments and get best out of it. In fact, currently, when you read comments, what you are looking for a ways to improve the original tip, not those that just complement it. From this regard, the comments are more of discussions to improve the tip. Since the wiki model allows for anyone to go and modify the tip, it will be interesting to see how a tip will be modified once the discussion results in multiple ways to improve it. I guess you can then accommodate multiple solutions right in the tip. -- Thanks, Hari It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:23:41 -0800, Diwaker Gupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [snip] IMHO, the best solution is to setup a blog. There are several free Wordpress based blog services. There are several free Wordpress plugins to implement rating for posts, most popular posts and such. Commenting is built in. The more I think about it, the more it seems like the perfect solution to me. Thoughts? I think blog does not quite work. One would have to consider an ultimate goal - provide a collection of accessible and maintainable tips to ease people's interaction with a wonderful yet nightmarishly-complicated vim editor :) There are tasks towards that goal: - reducing spam (to enable 'accessibility') in a non-burdernsome way (to enable maintainability) - enable ratings (acessibility) - format (yet again, accessibility) - maybe i am missing something here - This is why I argue that notion of commenting runs a bit counter to the goal of accessibility for the tips. It requires one to read through the tip, then go on to read what other people are saying about the tip. Why would not those other people just edit the tip directly? There are administrators to prevent absurdity from ensuing (witness, for example, the Scooter Libby page on wikipedia) You bring up a good point about a problem with rating tips though. I am not sure how to solve that with a wiki. Frankly, I am not even sure (yet) whether it is an important task that needs to be solved. Does this enable more accessible tips? Maybe. (maybe something along the 'digg' lines?) There must be a way to host a digg/reddit-like thing on sourceforge, and put a little dugg N times thing on the page, and then a link to search. Especially if this is a non-essential thing, we could probably afford to host it on a less reliable infrastructure? anyway, these are just my thoughts on the matter. I am sure there are people who are much more qualified who can comment. -denis
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 06:45:51PM +1100, John Beckett wrote: Tom Purl wrote: I looked into the anti-spam features of Wikibooks, and they basically do the basics: blacklists for abusers and easy rollbacks. So the top 2% of spammers/vandalizers will be blocked, and it will be easy for the admins to roll back the problems created by the outher 98%. Wikibooks sounds good. I wonder if it would be worth looking for a volunteer to occasionally take a snapshot of the wiki as an emergency backup. Presumably wget or similar would be adequate, or maybe there is an easy way to get the mediawiki source. Such a backup might be useful in a few weeks, and then perhaps monthly. John Back-ups are better made on the server side. For mediawiki a regular sqldump (maybe added in crontab) is all that is necessary.
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 5-Mar-07, at 2:26 PM, Tom Purl wrote:
Here's my view of where we are regarding the Vim Tips wiki
conversion
project:
{snippage}
Seems about right to me Tom!
6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make
sure
that they look good.
Mark me down as a volunteer for this stage... ( erp - did I say that
out loud? :-)
Brian
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin)
Comment: Verify this email or encrypt your email for free - see gnupg.org
iD8DBQFF7HYRGnOmb9xIQHQRAgS8AJ4yCto+UFyRrSdFcoMLP0PiwCb0ZwCgvGsG
/nTFJHSr5Mh7sTAAVo2L2xs=
=XmHl
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Tom Purl summarized: Here's my view of where we are regarding the Vim Tips wiki conversion project: 1. The Google wiki seems to be a poor option due to the difficulty involved in registering. 2. Multiple other wiki engines have been discussed, and the clear favorite seems to be a site built on top of the Mediawiki application. 3. Of all of the sites that offer free wiki hosting using Mediawiki, Wikibooks seems to be the most favored. Note: These are all my opinions based on what I've read. I hope to hear from everyone that has a different perspective :) Ok, so based on my version of reality, I think that we should proceed with the following actions: 0. I'll create the following page on the Vim Tips chapter of the Vim book on Wikibooks (whew!): * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox 1. All of the people who wrote tip conversion scripts before should update them so that the output format is Wikipedia markup, not Google markup * I apologize to the script writers for making them do more work. Hopefully, the necessary changes to your scripts will be small. * Also, please note that I _don't_ think that anyone should contribute a new script to this effort. We already have three very capable scripts that can probably get the job done very well, so I don't think that the effort would be worthwhile for anyone else. 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed above. 3. The vim community will come to a consensus on the best format for the tips, and we will use the best script for the job. 4. Consensus achieved!!! 5. We will automate the task of converting all of the tips. 6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make sure that they look good. 7. The invisible hand of The Wiki will then gradually make our wonderful collection of Vim tips even more awesome than they've ever been before! ;D So, what do you guys think? Sounds great to me. I'm still a bit worried about spammers, since that is what broke down the current tip collection. Perhaps someone can look into this, so that the scripts we use for conversion do the right thing? -- hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict: 258. When you want to see your girlfriend, you surf to her homepage. /// Bram Moolenaar -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\ ///sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\ \\\download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org/// \\\help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org///
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi everyone, * Tom Purl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Here's my view of where we are regarding the Vim Tips wiki conversion project: 1. The Google wiki seems to be a poor option due to the difficulty involved in registering. Yeah it also has problems with html entities which Mediawiki doesn't seem to have. 2. Multiple other wiki engines have been discussed, and the clear favorite seems to be a site built on top of the Mediawiki application. Yay! 3. Of all of the sites that offer free wiki hosting using Mediawiki, Wikibooks seems to be the most favored. Note: These are all my opinions based on what I've read. I hope to hear from everyone that has a different perspective :) We share the same opinions :-) Ok, so based on my version of reality, I think that we should proceed with the following actions: 0. I'll create the following page on the Vim Tips chapter of the Vim book on Wikibooks (whew!): * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox 1. All of the people who wrote tip conversion scripts before should update them so that the output format is Wikipedia markup, not Google markup I don't know much about Wikipedia stuff but I wrote a basic version.I'll appreciate any help to make it better. * I apologize to the script writers for making them do more work. Hopefully, the necessary changes to your scripts will be small. Well , considering the possible difficulties we were going to have with google wiki we actually need to thank you for the change * Also, please note that I _don't_ think that anyone should contribute a new script to this effort. We already have three very capable scripts that can probably get the job done very well, so I don't think that the effort would be worthwhile for anyone else. 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed above. I converted vimtips.py , you can find it at google svn: http://vimtips.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/scripts/vimtips.py (at least we can still use svn right ;) And check out http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox to see how it parsed tip #1. 3. The vim community will come to a consensus on the best format for the tips, and we will use the best script for the job. Any help is appreciated. 4. Consensus achieved!!! 5. We will automate the task of converting all of the tips. 6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make sure that they look good. 7. The invisible hand of The Wiki will then gradually make our wonderful collection of Vim tips even more awesome than they've ever been before! ;D So, what do you guys think? Well I think it's a great decision. Ali - -- Ali Polatel (hawking) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hawking.nonlogic.org/ gpg: F0186CA2 fp: 7110 01E2 F8B6 83A2 AC52 1D9F 986B 76E1 F018 6CA2 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail /\ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF7MFVmGt24fAYbKIRAnulAKDxzHGcC9Oj205xe5xLlgu5oBurqwCg8UgJ NfGQRIdPJ94pC27CZfJb3DE= =8WqN -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Would you please give me an url or something so I may learn the Wikipedia markup? :) Easier said than done. I've actually had problems finding a complete list in the past. Here's the best resource I could find: * http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Markup Also, please note that there are Python and Perl libraries for converting HTML to mediawiki markup and vice-versa, if that's of any help. Thanks! Tom Purl
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Bram Mooleanaar summarized: I'm still a bit worried about spammers, since that is what broke down the current tip collection. Perhaps someone can look into this, so that the scripts we use for conversion do the right thing? I looked into the anti-spam features of Wikibooks, and they basically do the basics: blacklists for abusers and easy rollbacks. So the top 2% of spammers/vandalizers will be blocked, and it will be easy for the admins to roll back the problems created by the outher 98%. So will that be effective? Eh, maybe. It seems to be effective enough for a lot of Wikibooks, and we *do* have experts on this mailing list (*cough* Martin Krischik *cough*) so I would love to hear their perspectives :) I don't think that the conversion effort will be wasted, even if we don't end up using Wikibooks as our wiki host. The two top hosts in my eyes are Wikibooks and Wikia, and they both use the Mediawiki wiki engine. Also, many other wiki engines support the Mediawiki markup language, so I think we're future-proofing our content by using this markup language. From my experience, it's definitely the de facto standard. Thanks! Tom Purl
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Ali Polatel said: 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed above. I converted vimtips.py , you can find it at google svn: http://vimtips.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/scripts/vimtips.py (at least we can still use svn right ;) And check out http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox to see how it parsed tip #1. Looks like a great start Ali! I wanted to use that page as the center of the project for now, so I refactored tip number one into its own page: * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star Also, I left comments on the output of your script on the talk page for that page. Well I think it's a great decision. Thanks! I would take more credit but I'm just repeating what almost everyone else said. Thanks again! Tom Purl
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Bram Mooleanaar summarized: I'm still a bit worried about spammers, since that is what broke down the current tip collection. Perhaps someone can look into this, so that the scripts we use for conversion do the right thing? I looked into the anti-spam features of Wikibooks, and they basically do the basics: blacklists for abusers and easy rollbacks. So the top 2% of spammers/vandalizers will be blocked, and it will be easy for the admins to roll back the problems created by the outher 98%. I also just noticed that the site forces you to enter a captcha if you enter add a link to a wiki page. I know that captchas aren't the perfect solution, but this probably helps a little bit with spam. Tom Purl
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:18:13 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote: And check out http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox to see how it parsed tip #1. Looks good. Only comment I have is it might be better if the 'By' and 'On' lines for the comments were on the same line. Anything that allows more useful info on a screen at once is an improvement in my eyes. Spencer -- Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines 7:28am up 6 days 15:11, 7 users, load average: 0.10, 0.24, 0.17 Registered Linux User #232457 | LFS ID 11703
Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
Tom Purl wrote: I looked into the anti-spam features of Wikibooks, and they basically do the basics: blacklists for abusers and easy rollbacks. So the top 2% of spammers/vandalizers will be blocked, and it will be easy for the admins to roll back the problems created by the outher 98%. Wikibooks sounds good. I wonder if it would be worth looking for a volunteer to occasionally take a snapshot of the wiki as an emergency backup. Presumably wget or similar would be adequate, or maybe there is an easy way to get the mediawiki source. Such a backup might be useful in a few weeks, and then perhaps monthly. John
