Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Shawn L]

I completely agree.  The support for the C15 is some of the best we get
from all our vendors.  They’re pretty much the only vendor where an actual
engineer answers the support line when you call in - ie no voicemail tree
unless all of them are currently on the phone.  About the only thing they
won’t help you with is major translation changes (that’s engineering
services).

We don’t use Meta so I have no first hand knowledge of their support, but
I’ve heard horror stories from partners that do.

I do wish the c15 had a better built-in SBC. The need to purchase an
external one of you need to do tricky stuff (transcoding dtmf digits. Grr)
is kind of a pain. But on the other hand I guess it’s one less thing to
worry about if you don’t need it.


On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 2:43 PM Mike Johnston  wrote:

> I feel I should also mention that even though the C15's CLI is a
> bit...old school, the platform is quite robust.  Especially if you are
> using SIP, there are very few failure modes that would cause a service
> impacting event.  Everything is redundant and can generally shift the
> call flows around failing hardware on the fly.  We've performed major
> software upgrades of the C15s while holding an uninterrupted SIP phone
> call during the entire upgrade.  From the day it's powered on, until the
> day it is replaced with something else, you can expect the C15s to be
> constantly operational (except for that time a tech dropped a wrench
> across the battery terminals).
>
> They also have great TDM support, but some hardware failures, of course,
> will take down in-progress TDM calls.  That is, if the call is on a T1
> that is connected to a port module that just died, then that call will
> need to be re-established on a different T1 that is a port module that
> is still working.  I feel that this sort of concern is nothing new to
> people who are used to working with TDM, though.
>
> The C15 support from Ribbon is amazing.  The technicians are very
> friendly, very patient, very accommodating, and always very
> understanding of what it is you are trying to accomplish.  I've had a
> couple times where I've had a feature request (or maybe you could argue
> a bug/non-RFC compliant behavior), and they fixed the issue.  However,
> for one of them, that fix took quite a while.  But, they want changes to
> their code to be very thoughtful and well tested.  This keeps their
> platform stable, very stable (see my first paragraph).
>
> If you want to have a Hosted PBX offering, I do not feel the C15 is good
> fit for that.   We use FreeSWITCH for Hosted PBX, and link each virtual
> customer to the C15 with a SIP trunk (the C15 calls it a SIP PRI).
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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Mike Johnston]

I feel I should also mention that even though the C15's CLI is a 
bit...old school, the platform is quite robust.  Especially if you are 
using SIP, there are very few failure modes that would cause a service 
impacting event.  Everything is redundant and can generally shift the 
call flows around failing hardware on the fly.  We've performed major 
software upgrades of the C15s while holding an uninterrupted SIP phone 
call during the entire upgrade.  From the day it's powered on, until the 
day it is replaced with something else, you can expect the C15s to be 
constantly operational (except for that time a tech dropped a wrench 
across the battery terminals).


They also have great TDM support, but some hardware failures, of course, 
will take down in-progress TDM calls.  That is, if the call is on a T1 
that is connected to a port module that just died, then that call will 
need to be re-established on a different T1 that is a port module that 
is still working.  I feel that this sort of concern is nothing new to 
people who are used to working with TDM, though.


The C15 support from Ribbon is amazing.  The technicians are very 
friendly, very patient, very accommodating, and always very 
understanding of what it is you are trying to accomplish.  I've had a 
couple times where I've had a feature request (or maybe you could argue 
a bug/non-RFC compliant behavior), and they fixed the issue.  However, 
for one of them, that fix took quite a while.  But, they want changes to 
their code to be very thoughtful and well tested.  This keeps their 
platform stable, very stable (see my first paragraph).


If you want to have a Hosted PBX offering, I do not feel the C15 is good 
fit for that.   We use FreeSWITCH for Hosted PBX, and link each virtual 
customer to the C15 with a SIP trunk (the C15 calls it a SIP PRI).

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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Andrew Carey]

> On Dec 23, 2021, at 18:52, Jeff Brower  wrote:
> 
> Mike-
> 
>> I believe this comes from the era when RAM was limited and only one 
>> overlay/program could be loaded from the tape drive at a time
> 
> "tape drive" ... that's not an era, that's an epoch :-)

Not that long ago. QIC drives were standard, with optional harddrive, up until 
about twenty years ago with the 500 series generic & hardware... I guess it has 
been that long.

I think the limitation was more of contention. Maintenance overlays are limited 
to only one, but DMO (provisioning) overlays could mostly be accessed 
simultaneously, iirc. The original DMS-10 was slightly different and earlier 
than the standard DMS (DMS100 family), with a lot of stuff a bit cruder. 
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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Jeff Brower]

Mike-

I believe this comes from the era when RAM was limited and only one  
overlay/program could be loaded from the tape drive at a time


"tape drive" ... that's not an era, that's an epoch :-)

-Jeff

Quoting Mike Johnston :


On 2021-12-23 08:08, Shawn L wrote:
The C15/20 series is still pretty much all CLI, despite the fact  
that they've been saying they've had a GUI for years (awful, awful  
java-based thing).


The C15's CLI is not very intuitive, being a living relic of its DMS  
heritage.  There are different overlays you need to load to get into  
different administration areas of the C15.  I believe this comes  
from the era when RAM was limited and only one overlay/program could  
be loaded from the tape drive at a time. Much of that same paradigm  
still exists in the C15's current CLI. The CLI is accessible via  
serial and telnet, with no sign of ever being upgraded to use SSH.   
There is no "up arrow" support.  That is, you can not press the up  
arrow key to get the previous command.  There is also no left/right  
arrow key support to assist you in modifying your current command.   
Depending on your terminal settings, you may not have backspace  
support either.  There is no API, and it is very tedious to automate  
with expect scripts via the CLI.  Almost everything is in 3 or 4  
character long keywords. You will eventually memorize many of them  
(CNAM, CND, CNB, CFW, etc), but you will forever be looking up many  
of these abbreviations in the manual (what is the difference between  
TR TTYP TERL, TRAL, TRAO, and TRAP?  How do these interact with the  
THGP or STN PICL setting?).


As for the GUI, as Shawn said, it is Java based.  As such, just  
assume it doesn't exist.


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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Mike Hammett]

That sounds terrible. 




- 
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Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



- Original Message -

From: "Mike Johnston"  
To: "VoiceOps"  
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 5:48:31 PM 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons 

On 2021-12-23 08:08, Shawn L wrote: 
> The C15/20 series is still pretty much all CLI, despite the fact that 
> they've been saying they've had a GUI for years (awful, awful 
> java-based thing). 

The C15's CLI is not very intuitive, being a living relic of its DMS 
heritage. There are different overlays you need to load to get into 
different administration areas of the C15. I believe this comes from 
the era when RAM was limited and only one overlay/program could be 
loaded from the tape drive at a time. Much of that same paradigm still 
exists in the C15's current CLI. The CLI is accessible via serial and 
telnet, with no sign of ever being upgraded to use SSH. There is no "up 
arrow" support. That is, you can not press the up arrow key to get the 
previous command. There is also no left/right arrow key support to 
assist you in modifying your current command. Depending on your 
terminal settings, you may not have backspace support either. There is 
no API, and it is very tedious to automate with expect scripts via the 
CLI. Almost everything is in 3 or 4 character long keywords. You will 
eventually memorize many of them (CNAM, CND, CNB, CFW, etc), but you 
will forever be looking up many of these abbreviations in the manual 
(what is the difference between TR TTYP TERL, TRAL, TRAO, and TRAP? How 
do these interact with the THGP or STN PICL setting?). 

As for the GUI, as Shawn said, it is Java based. As such, just assume 
it doesn't exist. 

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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Mike Johnston]

On 2021-12-23 08:08, Shawn L wrote:
The C15/20 series is still pretty much all CLI, despite the fact that 
they've been saying they've had a GUI for years (awful, awful 
java-based thing).


The C15's CLI is not very intuitive, being a living relic of its DMS 
heritage.  There are different overlays you need to load to get into 
different administration areas of the C15.  I believe this comes from 
the era when RAM was limited and only one overlay/program could be 
loaded from the tape drive at a time. Much of that same paradigm still 
exists in the C15's current CLI. The CLI is accessible via serial and 
telnet, with no sign of ever being upgraded to use SSH.  There is no "up 
arrow" support.  That is, you can not press the up arrow key to get the 
previous command.  There is also no left/right arrow key support to 
assist you in modifying your current command.  Depending on your 
terminal settings, you may not have backspace support either.  There is 
no API, and it is very tedious to automate with expect scripts via the 
CLI.  Almost everything is in 3 or 4 character long keywords. You will 
eventually memorize many of them (CNAM, CND, CNB, CFW, etc), but you 
will forever be looking up many of these abbreviations in the manual 
(what is the difference between TR TTYP TERL, TRAL, TRAO, and TRAP?  How 
do these interact with the THGP or STN PICL setting?).


As for the GUI, as Shawn said, it is Java based.  As such, just assume 
it doesn't exist.


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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Daniel White]

@Mike I'm always open to chat re: Netsapiens but as (I think) you know
we are a pure SIP environment.  I think every vendor is going to have
some "the grass is always greener on the other side" but we have a few
engineers at ISPs with background on Meta that have said a lot of
positive things about Netsapiens.  I have my days where I want to walk
away from them too.

@Charles we are providing service to ISPs in at least 30 states. 
Obviously the platform has matured quite a bit over the years but
depending on the age of that concern it might have been an architecture
issue (HA vs. Geo)

photograph  
Daniel White
Co-Founder
phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
direct:+1 (702) 470-2766

> Mike Hammett 
> December 17, 2021 at 12:15
> We've been running Metaswitch for 15 years and are looking to refresh
> what we have.
>
> Who else operates at that tier? I'm talking to Ribbon. I'm hesitant to
> talk to to Broadsoft because they're part of Cisco, but if I should, I
> should...
>
> Obviously, there are rather limited venues to gain third-party
> feedback on the platforms, so I figured I'd ask here.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> http://www.midwest-ix.com
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Charles Boening]

We have a mix of TDM and SIP for PSTN connectivity.

I heard there were issues with Netsapiens servicing customers in different 
states and/or LATAs within a single platform.  Not sure about your deployment 
but do you know if that's still the case?

__

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charl...@calore.net<mailto:charl...@calore.net>

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From: VoiceOps  On Behalf Of Matthew Crocker
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 12:49 PM
To: Peter Rad ; voiceops@voiceops.org
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or 
sharing sensitive information.

We were a VocalData (aka Tekelec T6k, aka Genband M6, aka Broadsoft M6) shop 
that migrated to Broadworks.  We moved from Broadworks to Cisco PaaS 
(Broadworks) 4 years ago.   I just purchased Netsapiens with their fully 
managed solution and will be migrating customers away from Cisco PaaS to  
Netsapiens.

IMHO Cisco has ignored Broadworks since they purchased it, feature set is 
falling behind.   We are 100% SIP in/out with 0 TDM anywhere in the network.

We've had customers we have migrated 3 times already,  time to migrate them a 
4th (last??) time.



From: VoiceOps 
mailto:voiceops-boun...@voiceops.org>> on behalf 
of Peter Rad mailto:pe...@4isps.com>>
Date: Friday, December 17, 2021 at 3:25 PM
To: voiceops@voiceops.org<mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org> 
mailto:voiceops@voiceops.org>>
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor ProsCons
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Crocker. Do not click links or 
open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.



Metaswitch will soon be running on Azure for Operators
Ribbon
Cisco/BSFT or talk to Averistar about running BroadWorks for you
Alianza
netsapiens (now CXDO)
2600Hz (Kazoo)
cloudya by NFON

Biscom
WLC
and a few smaller others

On 12/17/2021 2:15 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
We've been running Metaswitch for 15 years and are looking to refresh what we 
have.

Who else operates at that tier? I'm talking to Ribbon. I'm hesitant to talk to 
to Broadsoft because they're part of Cisco, but if I should, I should...

Obviously, there are rather limited venues to gain third-party feedback on the 
platforms, so I figured I'd ask here.


Thanks.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Matthew Crocker]

We were a VocalData (aka Tekelec T6k, aka Genband M6, aka Broadsoft M6) shop 
that migrated to Broadworks.  We moved from Broadworks to Cisco PaaS 
(Broadworks) 4 years ago.   I just purchased Netsapiens with their fully 
managed solution and will be migrating customers away from Cisco PaaS to  
Netsapiens.

IMHO Cisco has ignored Broadworks since they purchased it, feature set is 
falling behind.   We are 100% SIP in/out with 0 TDM anywhere in the network.

We’ve had customers we have migrated 3 times already,  time to migrate them a 
4th (last??) time.



From: VoiceOps  on behalf of Peter Rad 

Date: Friday, December 17, 2021 at 3:25 PM
To: voiceops@voiceops.org 
Subject: Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor ProsCons
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of Crocker. Do not click links or 
open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.



Metaswitch will soon be running on Azure for Operators
Ribbon
Cisco/BSFT or talk to Averistar about running BroadWorks for you
Alianza
netsapiens (now CXDO)
2600Hz (Kazoo)
cloudya by NFON

Biscom
WLC
and a few smaller others


On 12/17/2021 2:15 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
We've been running Metaswitch for 15 years and are looking to refresh what we 
have.

Who else operates at that tier? I'm talking to Ribbon. I'm hesitant to talk to 
to Broadsoft because they're part of Cisco, but if I should, I should...

Obviously, there are rather limited venues to gain third-party feedback on the 
platforms, so I figured I'd ask here.


Thanks.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com






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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Charles Boening]

We’ve been on Meta for about 15 years as well (DMS10 network prior).  I believe 
we received our gear towards the end of 2006 and commissioned Q1 2007.

We’re a fairly small shop.  We have EAS, N-Series (Conference/MOH), SAS, a 
single Perimeta, CFS and two UMG.  We just did a UMG refresh out of the legacy 
3510 to the newer ATCA platform.  It went very well.  We’ll be converting our 
other 3510 in 2022.  We also did a CFS replacement from the old server 
architecture to a new one that’s all virtualized.  Again, it went very well.

We’ve looked at Ribbon off and on over the years but haven’t seen a driving 
reason to change.  We quoted their robocall solution and it was a bit 
ridiculous in my opinion.  I believe it was even more than what Metaswitch 
wanted for their solution with no additional benefit.

I do wish Meta would lower support costs a bit.  


Good luck.

__

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Network Manager
800-858-2399 | Office
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From: VoiceOps  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 11:15 AM
To: voiceops@voiceops.org
Subject: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links, or 
sharing sensitive information.
We've been running Metaswitch for 15 years and are looking to refresh what we 
have.

Who else operates at that tier? I'm talking to Ribbon. I'm hesitant to talk to 
to Broadsoft because they're part of Cisco, but if I should, I should...

Obviously, there are rather limited venues to gain third-party feedback on the 
platforms, so I figured I'd ask here.


Thanks.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com



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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Peter Rad]

Metaswitch will soon be running on Azure for Operators
Ribbon
Cisco/BSFT or talk to Averistar about running BroadWorks for you
Alianza
netsapiens (now CXDO)
2600Hz (Kazoo)
cloudya by NFON

Biscom
WLC
and a few smaller others



On 12/17/2021 2:15 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
We've been running Metaswitch for 15 years and are looking to refresh 
what we have.


Who else operates at that tier? I'm talking to Ribbon. I'm hesitant to 
talk to to Broadsoft because they're part of Cisco, but if I should, I 
should...


Obviously, there are rather limited venues to gain third-party 
feedback on the platforms, so I figured I'd ask here.



Thanks.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com




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Re: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Matthew Yaklin]

I have ran asterisk, coppercom, Taqua, broadsoft, killed off DMSs, still 
killing C15 traffic, and Meta. Meta is by far the best but I do not pay the 
bills. Combined with perimeta and SAS they are a very nice experience overall. 
Meta support is also pretty good.

We still do a lot of legacy TDM but mainly SIP/hosted pbx now days. So the UMGs 
still play a pretty big role to the point we are even migrating to new UMGs so 
we can continue to upgrade to the newest code.

Now I cannot pretend to know or have used what else is out there like Sonus or 
whatever I see some of the bigger players using but I would be super hesitant 
to even think about leaving meta due to our needs.

For hosted PBX broadsoft stand alone redundant servers were ok.. no real 
complaints except constant code upgrades and patching back when I was using 
them. They worked nicely. The broadsoft service that they hosted and you paid 
for connections to which I did not setup was silly expensive. I just helped 
move off of that.

At this point in time I really do not know of a meta replacement if you want a 
full blown switch that can do most everything and scale to multiple states. We 
are not doing their new virtualization stuff on commodity hardware yet for most 
pieces. AMS servers sure we do but not the rest.

I get all the lingo mixed up with so many brands/years/age so excuse any 
mistake above but if someone can suggest a meta replacement I would be curious 
to know of it.

Matt

From: VoiceOps  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 2:15 PM
To: voiceops@voiceops.org
Subject: [VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

We've been running Metaswitch for 15 years and are looking to refresh what we 
have.

Who else operates at that tier? I'm talking to Ribbon. I'm hesitant to talk to 
to Broadsoft because they're part of Cisco, but if I should, I should...

Obviously, there are rather limited venues to gain third-party feedback on the 
platforms, so I figured I'd ask here.


Thanks.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



Midwest Internet Exchange
http://www.midwest-ix.com



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[VoiceOps] Vendor Pros\Cons

[Mike Hammett]

We've been running Metaswitch for 15 years and are looking to refresh what we 
have. 


Who else operates at that tier? I'm talking to Ribbon. I'm hesitant to talk to 
to Broadsoft because they're part of Cisco, but if I should, I should... 


Obviously, there are rather limited venues to gain third-party feedback on the 
platforms, so I figured I'd ask here. 




Thanks. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 



Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 



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