Re: [Vo]:Ed Storm's and thermionic generators
Frank, You need to generate some testable hypotheses from your theory - say a situation in which stimulating a process with 90%, 100% and 110% of your frequency x size relationship would yield a clear signal that the 1.094 figure is significantly different from the other two at achieving some unexpected result. Then people may listen. Nick
[Vo]:In the News: possible LENR converter ??
Information synchronicity has struck once again. This is in response to the recent thread about Ed Storms envisioning a useful heat-to-electric converter for LENR. SIDE NOTE: I am convinced that the need (demand) for information often creates its own supply independently of any direct request. That is to say: the level of mysterious synchronicity of answers, arising from disparate sources wrt the question (as in this case) appears to be *non-random* to some large degree (as if there was some kind of a preexisiting 'floating meme' out in cyberspace ;-). Where we (the askers) will go with that information is another subject altogether. Anyway Although the following answer involves thermoelectricy, as opposed to thermoionic conversion, I am pretty sure that the recent thread should have been focused on the former. Thermoionic conversion usually requires temperatures well in excess of 2000 degrees F, which will not likely happen with LENR. Here is the news, and it is most encouraging in its potential sweep, particularly to those in the semiconductor industry, who would probably benefit from a bettery more so than even the automotive industry. http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/20057/ Like Ed, Jed, and others ... I could envision such real world applications for LENR as for instance a power supply and substitute 'bettery' (of about the same dimensions) powering an 'always-on' laptop computer, say, using a sealed electrolysis cell which is never stopped, once it is started. The biggest problem would be what to do with rejected heat. Of course with widespread LENR you can just provide more air-conditioning (cooling) ... but is that wise? Assuming the silicon nanowire converter could harness 80+% of the Carnot spread (i.e. the heat differential) then that would only give you maybe 15% overall efficiency at best. To get 5 watt-hours of electricity out, you might need to reject 30+ watts of heat continuously. This represents a major political issue for the generation of do-gooders who come along after the introduction of robust and affordable LENR. If global warming is really the big issue' facing us as a society, then giving 'everyman' his cheap and unlimited electrical power supply is NOT the right answer, even if the power itself is totally carbon neutral, inexpensive, and otherwise ecologically sound. Jones
[Vo]:Ed Storm's and thermionic generators
Nick Palmer Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:26:26 -0800 Frank, You need to generate some testable hypotheses from your theory - say a situation in which stimulating a process with 90%, 100% and 110% of your frequency x size relationship would yield a clear signal that the 1.094 figure is significantly different from the other two at achieving some unexpected result. Then people may listen. Nick ... I know that I need experimental results. I have done many experiments. None of these has produced excess energy. If I produced electrical energy directly from a cold fusion experiment that would change to world. To date I have not been able to do it. My relationship tells me some things. If the stimulation frequency is ten megahertz the palladium wire needs to 1/10 of a meter in length. I have found that there is more to it than that. Loading is an issue I cant resolve. Just because the wire is 1/10 of meter long does not guarantee the coherence length will extend for 1/10 of a meter. We need a national program on these things, not just me with a little time off doing some quick experiments. Frank Z **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
Re: [Vo]:In the News: possible LENR converter ??
Jones Beene wrote: If global warming is really the big issue' facing us as a society, then giving 'everyman' his cheap and unlimited electrical power supply is NOT the right answer . . . We have been over this issue before. Waste heat does not contribute to global warming. It contributes to heat islands which are bad for the ecology, but the heat radiates away quickly. I covered some of these issues in my book, in chapters 14 and 15. I concluded that even though generators are likely to be less efficient, cold fusion will reduce overall primary energy generation for various reasons, such as the use of cogenerators. If primary energy consumption increases by a factor of 10 or 100, waste heat may become a problem. 15% efficient thermoelectric generators would be fine for small machines such as wristwatches, cell phones and implantable heart boosters (VAD) but I expect larger machines such as home generators and automobiles will use more efficient, conventional heat engines. There is no particular reason to make a home generator small or without moving parts, and there is plenty of water for a steam turbine or something like that. Small turbines are improving rapidly these days, and coming down in price. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:In the News: possible LENR converter ??
Jones Beene wrote:- This represents a major political issue for the generation of do-gooders who come along after the introduction of robust and affordable LENR. As a resident do gooder here, I have to say that this may not be a problem. I think that excess heat radiates into space in proportion to the fourth power so we would have to have a helluva lot of waste heat before it got to be a problem, however Nature could always surprise the overconfident Homo sapiens with some response that we never thought of... Nick Palmer
Re: [Vo]:In the News: possible LENR converter ??
--- Jed Rothwell wrote: 15% efficient thermoelectric generators would be fine for small machines such as wristwatches, cell phones and implantable heart boosters (VAD) but I expect larger machines such as home generators and automobiles will use more efficient, conventional heat engines. Perhaps I did not make the example clear enough. There is no conventional heat engine, no matter how large, which will approach the high device efficiency which might be feasible with nanowires. Consequently, the problem is not size. In fact, for thermoelectric nanowires, like the ones presented in the previous News release, there is evidence that smaller is better, due to heat transfer limitations or larger geometries. It is the Carnot spread or the temperature differential between the hot side (in Kelvin) and the sink- which is all-important. In my example the efficiency of the converter was optimistic at 80%, but nothing can change the low spread except a higher hot side. The problem there is that metal hydrides like Pd are limited in loading at higher temperatures and you need the full loading for the CF effect (apparently). That loss in loading is a similar reason why hydrogen storage tanks (using metal hydrides) can release the gas simply by heating the tank. With a diesel heat engine, for instance the high Carnot spread is due to the fuel ignition temperature- roughly 2,400 F, versus ambient. This will allow an engine with a device efficiency of only 50% to achieve about a 35% net Carnot efficiency. But that high spread in unavailable with liquid electrolytes and/or with electrodes which demand full loading. Lets say the LENR cell is working at 200 degrees F, so that a liquid electrolyte will not boil. This is ~367 K and room temperature is ~300, so your spread is 67. The ratio of the spread to the sink is 67/300 or ~22%. This is the maximum net efficiency for any heat engine at that temperature, no matter how large the heat engine is... and that is the maximum, even if the device itself is 100% efficient as a no-loss converter. If the device itself, like the nanowire example, is 80% efficient on its own, then you might get the net up to 17-18%, but that must include the parasitic energy which is fed back to the electrodes, in order to keep the cell running. Therefore a net efficiency of 15% would be absolutely fabulous, with ANY size LENR cell, from the smallest to the largest ... unless you can find an electrode which works at low loading. AFAIK there is zero evidence for any such electrode in the literature ... and conversely, the net efficiency would most likely go down, not up, with a larger machine (for automotive)... this is due to the problem of getting adequate heat transfer at the sink. Of course, if you can safely let the electrolyte boil or become superpressurized to maintain high loading, then that feature will raise the bar ... but then the added pressurization becomes the issue which keeps this from use with smaller devices. Jones
Re: [Vo]:I'm bored and writing to much, but what is fused salt Ed?
Fused salt is a mixture of potassium and lithium metals containing dissolved D. No water or Cl is present. D2 is produced at the anode, which is palladium. Ed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If that salt water. Is chlorine liberated? Does the cell produce yucky green sludge? Frank Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 in the new year.
[Vo]:I'm bored and writing to much, but what is fused salt Ed?
If that salt water. Is chlorine liberated? Does the cell produce yucky green sludge? Frank **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
Re: [Vo]:I'm bored and writing to much, but what is fused salt Ed?
In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:23:44 -0700: Hi, [snip] Fused salt is a mixture of potassium and lithium metals containing dissolved D. No water or Cl is present. D2 is produced at the anode, which is palladium. So the salt is actually Li/K deuteride? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
[Vo]:D2 at the anode, now I am really confused
Fused salt is a mixture of potassium and lithium metals containing dissolved D. No water or Cl is present. D2 is produced at the anode, which is palladium. Ed Does not the Hydrogen and the Deuterium ion contain a positive charge in solution. Are not these positive charges attracted to the cathode which is negative in a cell that is receiving energy. Is not the D2 liberated at the cathode. Frank **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
Re: [Vo]:I'm bored and writing to much, but what is fused salt Ed?
Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:23:44 -0700: Hi, [snip] Fused salt is a mixture of potassium and lithium metals containing dissolved D. No water or Cl is present. D2 is produced at the anode, which is palladium. So the salt is actually Li/K deuteride? No, it is a solution of Li and K containing a little deuterium. At the temperature of 450° C, the solution does not dissolve much D. Regards, Ed Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:stimulation frequency
In reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s message of Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:57:45 EST: Hi, [snip] A condensate that is strongly stimulated in the RF spectrum should generate radio waves. Why? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:D2 at the anode, now I am really confused
Frank, The D does not carry a positive charge in this solution because the Li and K are more electropositive than is D. This is standard chemistry. Ed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fused salt is a mixture of potassium and lithium metals containing dissolved D. No water or Cl is present. D2 is produced at the anode, which is palladium. Ed Does not the Hydrogen and the Deuterium ion contain a positive charge in solution. Are not these positive charges attracted to the cathode which is negative in a cell that is receiving energy. Is not the D2 liberated at the cathode. Frank Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 in the new year.
Re: [Vo]:WAY OFF TOPIC Quote from Huckabee
Jed Rothwell wrote: Sorry to introduce off-topic politics, but here is an appalling quote from Mike Huckabee of the American Taliban: I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living god. And that's what we need to do -- to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view. At least we know where the man stands. It's not a matter on changing the Constitution. We should get rid of the last 100 years of legal interpretation and return to the intention of the founders. You should watch Wall Builders. David Barton makes an excellent case. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
