[VO]: Call for new Ozone process
Howdy Vorts, As some are aware, one of our companies build water treating and wastewater disinfection chem feed inductors. We have depended on our industry to produce the remainder of the systems including the chemicals for this purpose. We are not chemists or physicists. We need systems that can produce quantities of in situozone gas at a lower cost and safer methods. There are new exotics entering the nation's water supply that we believe can be destroyed via ozone treatment but the existing processes for making ozone are both expensive and troubling. There are Vorts here that have an idea on the subject that may help our industry. Richard
Re: [VO]: Call for new Ozone process
DC PULSES. Nikola Tesla. Apparatus for Production of Ozone http://rpmgt.org/588177.html On 20/03/2008, R C Macaulay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy Vorts, As some are aware, one of our companies build water treating and wastewater disinfection chem feed inductors. We have depended on our industry to produce the remainder of the systems including the chemicals for this purpose. We are not chemists or physicists. We need systems that can produce quantities of in situozone gas at a lower cost and safer methods. There are new exotics entering the nation's water supply that we believe can be destroyed via ozone treatment but the existing processes for making ozone are both expensive and troubling. There are Vorts here that have an idea on the subject that may help our industry. Richard -- -- we are all astronauts on board the spaceship earth. there are no passengers, only crew. - r. buckminster fuller
Re: [VO]: Call for new Ozone process
Thanks Esa, Obviously Tesla never built one like the patent drawing or he would have wound up with clean breath and a nitric acid bath. Richard Esa posted. DC PULSES. Nikola Tesla. Apparatus for Production of Ozone http://rpmgt.org/588177.html Howdy Vorts, As some are aware, one of our companies build water treating and wastewater disinfection chem feed inductors. We have depended on our industry to produce the remainder of the systems including the chemicals for this purpose. We are not chemists or physicists. We need systems that can produce quantities of in situozone gas at a lower cost and safer methods. There are new exotics entering the nation's water supply that we believe can be destroyed via ozone treatment but the existing processes for making ozone are both expensive and troubling. There are Vorts here that have an idea on the subject that may help our industry. Richard
[Vo]:Room-temperature superconductors a step closer with silane
It's difficult to say whether the following line of research could eventually challenge Mark Goldes' RTS work. Sounds like these silane folks have a lot of work ahead of them. It's still an interesting read. Enjoy! http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080319-room-temperature-superconductors-a-step-closer-with-silane.html http://tinyurl.com/223bch ** SUBJECT: Room-temperature superconductors a step closer with silane By Chris Lee | Published: March 19, 2008 - 07:41PM CT Superconductivity was first observed when Onnes used liquid helium to cool mercury. It was soon found that quite a few metals would superconduct when cooled to within a few degrees of absolute zero. However, the dream of superconductivity at higher temperatures—perhaps even room temperature—has kept researchers pursuing superconductivity. Now, new research on a class of chemicals has yielded some interesting results that may point superconductor research in a different direction: hydrogen-based compounds. Despite the attraction of low-loss superconductors, the cooling demands have limited the application of superconductivity to very high field magnets, such as those used in magnetic resonance imaging devices. In the 1980s, a new form of superconductivity that operated at liquid nitrogen temperatures got everyone pretty excited. Unfortunately, these ceramics are hard to make, harder to handle, and don't carry much current, making them even less useful than their lower-temperature brethren. What we need is a substance that has the more robust superconductivity and handling properties of metallic superconductors while retaining the high transition temperature of the ceramics. In short, a different kind of metal. The ultimate choice would be hydrogen, which, under sufficient pressure, is thought to become metallic. Calculations suggest that the structure and properties of metallic hydrogen would support superconductivity at quite a high temperature. On the other hand, this is just so much mental masturbation, because hydrogen isn't expected to become metallic until pressures of 400GPa—a bit of a squeeze for current lab equipment. Nevertheless, there are several hydrogen-like alternatives, where a compound with lots of hydrogen in it is put under sufficient pressure to become a metal. This works because the presence of the heavier atomic cores act to compress the electrons surrounding the hydrogen nucleus, meaning that it is, in effect, already under a significant amount of pressure. This brings down the metallic transition pressure, putting it within the reach of lab equipment. This is exactly why researchers at Max Planck Institute for Chemistry have been putting the squeeze on silane. Silane is a silicon atom surrounded by four hydrogen atoms, making it one of two perfect candidates for hydrogen-based metals (the other is methane). They found that silane became metallic at around 50GPa, which is still a pretty substantial pressure. On cooling, the metallic silane begins to superconduct. However, the temperature at which superconductivity occurs exhibits some interesting behavior. It hangs around 5-10K for most of the pressure range (50-200GPa), but in a small range between 100-125GPa, it increases quite sharply. Although the researchers only have five data points in the range and never observed a critical temperature higher than 20K, the shape of the curve indicates that, for some small range of pressures, a very high critical temperature might be achieved. A note of caution should be injected at this point: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. Silane is a gas at room temperature and pressure. It is a gas that you will not find naturally occurring because it spontaneously combusts in air. In fact, one can imagine that wires and magnets based on a silane superconductor would also make wonderful pipe bombs—not something that you want in the same room as a million-dollar MRI machine. On a slightly more serious note, the higher the required critical temperature, the narrower the pressure range for which superconductivity can be achieved, meaning that very high quality pressure control would be required to maintain silane in a useful state. All in all, it is hard to tell if this a win for superconductivity. It is, however, certainly a win for materials research. Science, 2008, DOI: 10.1126/science.1153282 --- Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [VO]: Call for new Ozone process
From: R C Macaulay There are Vorts here that have an idea on the subject that may help our industry. If ozone could be made cheaply enough - and 'on the fly' then there is also a gigantic market for such a device in automotive- and probably in grid power (large power plants) as well. This is brought about by the increased heat-yield from combustion, when using ozone-enriched air, which will result in reducing fuel by not only more complete combustion and faster flame speed, but also by eliminating some of the energy necessary to convert O2 to ROS. That is not Richard's interest, of course, unless such a combustion process results in a dual-use ozone generator. IOW there is a substantial net savings from combustion from substituting O3 for some of the fuel which would be otherwise required. The price of ozone, as everyone know, is the glaring problem for using that concept now. The obvious questions to ask at the start, for any suggestion, are: 1) What is 'cheaply enough'? ... what is the target price and what does the end-product look like (specs)? what amount of nitrogen compounds can be tolerated? 2) Will that target price permit one to use O2, instead of air, as the starting raw material? Of course the answer there is probably no wrt to medical O2 ... but the more interesting question is this: is there an economical process for enriching air in O2, using magnetic separation for instance - which would be far cheaper but of far less purity than medical O2, but adequate for the purpose of making ozone cheaply, which product has some but not too much NOx (or which NOx can be removed in another step) ? I suppose what this is suggesting, in a practical device is this: The O2 in air has magnetic properties which allow it to be enriched to some moderate degree cheaply, but there is still going to be substantial nitrogen in any low-cost process not involving cryogenics. This is not a problem for automotive, as the nitrous compounds and NOx get obliterated in a hot explosion. The nitrogen products are a no-no for water purification, however, without another step to remove them. This factor might eliminate the cheapest ozone process- which would begin with enriching air in O2 from say 20% to 40% which is great for automotive. 3) Mother Nature's way, of course, is the shorter wl's of UV operating on O2 at low pressure. Ultraviolet BUVB 315 nm - 280 nm 3.94 - 4.43 eV Ultraviolet CUVC 280 nm - 100 nm 4.43 - 12.4 eV These shorter wl's of UV radiation are NOT efficient to make from electricity, except from arc discharge (or the Tesla method) and UV itself is easily absorbed (by even glass !) such that the Pyrex which must be used in industrial UV tubes removes most of the UVB and UVC . The so-called blacklight tubes available now are usually mercury discharge and emit almost entirely in UVA or lower- and consequently do NOT make much ozone per kWhr of input. Otherwise, of course, Richard would not be asking for suggestions but would install blacklight tubes... as any one can do for a hot-tub or pool, but that is expensive and ineffective for high volume use. In looking at this cheap-ozone problem (or opportunity) in the past, but with an emphasis on automotive implementation, the only hope which I could see then for making ozone on-the-fly, and at a cost which would be competitive on a substituted molecule-for-molecule bases with gasoline, for instance (about $1/kg) would depend on the 'questionable' possibility of UVC emission coming from below ground state hydrogen - i.e. if the hydrino process of Mills can be adapted. This does not have to be the full-monty BLP process ... which if that worked as claimed by Mills and Co. then *everything* changes at a more fundamental level ... i.e. since a viable hydrino process would be the equivalent of very cheap electrical power (exactly like robust LENR as envisioned by Jed Rothwell and others who are working on cold fusion processes). However, none of that has yet to live up to expectations or past claims... sadly ... but unlike the case with LENR, there does exist with the hydrino what can be called a BLP-lite version of the technology, which can be envisioned as producing only cheap UV from an unstable hydrino (short lifetime). This does not involve the stable hydrino, or hydrino hydride, at least not as Mills' envisions it. It does not infringe on his patents. It would actually NEED - or depend-on, a secondary process of converting UV -- ozone, in order to be a viable energy process. That would be the closest technique which is on the horizon, IMHO, for making ozone on-the-fly cheaply. Everything else which I could dig up in patents or on in the literature is a factor of ~10 times more expensive. Actually, there are some ways to pull this hydrino-like process off, which I can envision, but it would not be not be easy to do, and since Mills has already burned
Re: [VO]: Call for new Ozone process
On Mar 20, 2008, at 4:12 AM, R C Macaulay wrote: Howdy Vorts, As some are aware, one of our companies build water treating and wastewater disinfection chem feed inductors. We have depended on our industry to produce the remainder of the systems including the chemicals for this purpose. We are not chemists or physicists. We need systems that can produce quantities of in situozone gas at a lower cost and safer methods. There are new exotics entering the nation's water supply that we believe can be destroyed via ozone treatment but the existing processes for making ozone are both expensive and troubling. There are Vorts here that have an idea on the subject that may help our industry. Richard I'm only an amateur, but here is some food for thought for you. I expect if you mix the ozone with water, an apparently necessary step for water or wastewater treatment, you are going to get mixed oxidants, especially hydrogen peroxide: O3 + H2O - O2 + HOOH O3 + H2O - O2 + 2 HO O3 + HO - O2 + HOO and a host of other reactions depending on the water chemical contents. One option is to simply buy commercial hydrogen peroxide and mix it, but that doesn't meet your criteria for in situ generation. I posted earlier about commercial MIOX treatment equipment, which electrolyses brine, i.e. NaCl mixed with de-ionized (softened with ordinary water softener using NaCl flushed resins) water, and then mixes small amounts of that with the water to be treated (the water to be treated does not have to be de-ionized): On Jun 9, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: About the practical side of things, electrolysis of saltwater is now used commercially and very effectively to make a water decontaminate called MIOX which stands for mixed oxidents. See: http://www.miox.com/ A google search on miox shows lots of other references. MIOX is the stuff that accumulates about the cathode when electrolysing NaCl brine. MIOX is mostly HOCl, hypochlorous acid, but also lots of other oxy-chloro compounds and also H2O2, hydrogen peroxide. The process requires de-ionized water, otherwise the reaction product mix can vary substantially. It is far more effective than chlorine or bleach, and far safer, but requires very careful flow and/or concentration regulation to keep it that way. With holding times of a couple hours or more, even in concentrations with almost no residual taste, it is even effective against viruses. MIOX decontamination units are made in many sizes for use by water companies. At local state well operator classes I've seen an actual demonstration of a MIOX pocket pen run by AA batteries. The MIOX is produced in the pen by electrolysis and then mixed with a much larger volume of water to be decontaminated. The pen was produced for the military. The above MIOX stuff has multiple patents, and is fairly expensive, so you would need means of producing oxidants that avoid the patents, and a very reliable means of mixing the water with the oxidants at a fixed ratio (e.g. a fixed ratio flow rate pump, which should be a public domain method) and achieving a sufficient holding time for the oxidants to do their job. Many oxidants don't last long at concentration, so have to be generated on site, which is in your specification anyway. One means of beating the patents, while improving energy efficiency at the same time, might be to use electrode-less electrolysis. I suggest trying a thin layer of brine between dielectric covered capacitor plates as a capacitor in a resonant tank circuit. Brine could flow between the plates at a slow rate. I would start out with a very small capacitor initially, and small inductance, so as to get the frequency as high as possible. Based on recent data regarding the Kanzius process, a frequency of around 13.5 MHz may be optimal or desirable. This may be effective at generating HOOH, HO, HOO, as well as OH-, and OOH- radicals in addition to sodium hypochlorite, and other similar chlorine based decontaminants and mixed oxidants. The basic process would be: 2H2O - HOOH + H2 so hydrogen gas would evolve and would either need to be vented or maybe used to help drive the process, maybe as auxiliary fuel for a generator or fuel cell. I do have to wonder if ordinary electrolysis (as opposed to electrode- less electrolysis) is sufficient and can be done without patent violation, but it is expensive because Pt anodes are probably necessary. Use of a cheap thin high dielectric constant corrosion resistant dielectric, like alumina, as an AC electrode surface might do the job much cheaper Salt is still pretty cheap too. I hope this gives you some useful ideas. Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [VO]: Call for new Ozone process
On Mar 20, 2008, at 7:53 AM, Jones Beene wrote: From: R C Macaulay There are Vorts here that have an idea on the subject that may help our industry. If ozone could be made cheaply enough - and 'on the fly' then there is also a gigantic market for such a device in automotive- and probably in grid power (large power plants) as well. The AC coupled resonant cell circuit I suggested earlier would produce at least some oxidants even without the use of NaCl. If water injection is used, then it might improve water injection efficiency if oxidants and hydrogen were in the water injected. It would take some testing to find out. Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [VO]: Call for new Ozone process
Hello Richard, I have no idea what's out there commercially, but here's how I would do it. There are high power, medium pressure argon-mercury UV lamps available commercially with quartz tube walls. One of these could be placed next to a quartz tube through which the water is pumped. A sparge would introduce small air bubbles into the water. The UV in the lamp would convert the oxygen in the air bubbles into ozone. To achieve optimum efficiency, each tube would be placed at the focus of an elliptical reflector. Dopants are available for such lamps to increase the output in the desired UV wavelengths. This seems so obvious, I imagine something like this is already available. M. --- R C Macaulay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy Vorts, As some are aware, one of our companies build water treating and wastewater disinfection chem feed inductors. We have depended on our industry to produce the remainder of the systems including the chemicals for this purpose. We are not chemists or physicists. We need systems that can produce quantities of in situozone gas at a lower cost and safer methods. There are new exotics entering the nation's water supply that we believe can be destroyed via ozone treatment but the existing processes for making ozone are both expensive and troubling. There are Vorts here that have an idea on the subject that may help our industry. Richard Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [Vo]:Arthur C. Clarke dies at 90
An email I received today from IEEE Spectrum: As we were preparing to publish this exclusive interview with the famed author of works such as 2001: A Space Odyssey, we received news that Sir Arthur had passed away at age 90. Sadly, it now contains some of the final words of a writer who changed the world with his ideas. One of our correspondents traveled to Sri Lanka in January to speak with him in person, only to find Clarke hospitalized and short of breath. Still, he was able to convey his thoughts on a range of technology topics, from space elevators to terraformed planets. Read the article and listen to our exclusive interview. Article url: http://spectrum.ieee.org/mar08/6075 Long time ACC reader and fan, George Holz
Re: [VO]: Call for new Ozone process
In reply to R C Macaulay's message of Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:12:44 -0500: Hi, [snip] Howdy Vorts, As some are aware, one of our companies build water treating and wastewater disinfection chem feed inductors. We have depended on our industry to produce the remainder of the systems including the chemicals for this purpose. We are not chemists or physicists. We need systems that can produce quantities of in situozone gas at a lower cost and safer methods. There are new exotics entering the nation's water supply that we believe can be destroyed via ozone treatment but the existing processes for making ozone are both expensive and troubling. [snip] I'm not sure how efficient it would be, but I would consider a two stage process. 1) Use pressure swing absorption technology to produce nearly pure O2 from air. 2) Pass an electric arc through the pure O2 to create ozone. The first step (nearly) eliminates the problem of nitrogen oxides, the second step avoids the losses inherent in using UV as an intermediary. However you may have a problem finding electrodes that don't deteriorate too rapidly. If the remaining nitrogen oxides are a problem, then a third, chemical, step may need to be added to remove them. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:Arthur C. Clarke dies at 90
George Holz wrote: Article url: http://spectrum.ieee.org/mar08/6075 Nice! Thanks for sharing that. I am glad to hear that Arthur's final illness was not too painful or prolonged. When I went to dig out that photo of Arthur and his pet dinosaur . . . it made me weep for a while. It is no tragedy when a man dies after 90 years of the fullest life imaginable, but it never easy to lose a friend. And Arthur had THOUSANDS of friends. I am pleased to see that he left instructions for a completely secular funeral. Absolutely no religious rites of any kind, relating to any religious faith, should be associated with my funeral. He was a profoundly spiritual person in many ways, but an atheist to the core. - Jed
[Vo]:Garow's Paradox
Vortexians; I visited the PESN website and noticed this article. Of particular interest to me is the question and response at the bottom of the page; quantum ring theory, that's new to me, then there is the paragraph which talks about a flow of gravitons from the nucleus, which behave like strings. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Cold_Fusion_and_Gamow's_Paradox --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Arthur C. Clarke dies at 90
From Jed, George Holz wrote: Article url: http://spectrum.ieee.org/mar08/6075 Nice! Thanks for sharing that. I am glad to hear that Arthur's final illness was not too painful or prolonged. When I went to dig out that photo of Arthur and his pet dinosaur . . . it made me weep for a while. It is no tragedy when a man dies after 90 years of the fullest life imaginable, but it never easy to lose a friend. And Arthur had THOUSANDS of friends. I am pleased to see that he left instructions for a completely secular funeral. Absolutely no religious rites of any kind, relating to any religious faith, should be associated with my funeral. He was a profoundly spiritual person in many ways, but an atheist to the core. - Jed Looking at the photo of Sir Clark in bed, I was struck by two things. (ONE) he didn't look a day older than, well, what a nonagenarian would probably look like, and (TWO) despite his advanced age, and all that that entails, a playful spirit was still shining through those eyes. IMHO, a playful spirit is an extremely rare thing to observe in a nonagenarian. I'm reminded of a friend of mine, also a hard core atheist, who last month went in for a knee replacement - what he called his first steps towards making the transition to true cyborg status. I visited him a day after surgery, just as his nurse was prodded him to tentatively negotiate a flight of stairs as part of his physical therapy regime. As I walked behind him I decided to torment him. I told him my wife, knowing full well that he was an atheist, had recently sent him a little get well prayer. She instructed me to tell him precisely what she had done because she knew her action would annoy him - meaning the ritualistic act of futility, as the act is often perceived by atheists, would actually amuse him. What are friends for. He giggled back sarcastically, while carefully negotiating another step. It's hard to disrespect anyone who remains true to their school, no matter what their religion might be. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Lower Peak to Sunspot Cycle?
There is an interesting weather blog at http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/ The latest entry and comments discuss the possibility that the next sunspot cycle, cycle 24, will be delayed and have a peak that is smaller than usual. The beginning of cycle 24 was predicted for March of this year and has now been changed to May. Cycle 25 is predicted to be 'off the charts' low.
[Vo]:Garow's Paradox
paragraph which talks about a flow of gravitons from the nucleus, which behave like strings. thomas malloy Tom That is similar to what I have been saying. Gravity is usually ignored in the study of atomic physics. How does the electric field travel from one atomic state to another? My answer is; it flows strongly. How does the gravitational field travel from one state to another? My answer again is; it flows strongly. How can a weak field flow strongly? There must be a condition under which the gravitomagnetic field is strong. ref chapter 11 _http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html_ (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html) That condition is the quantum transition. The requirement of both a strong electromagnetic and a strong gravitomagnetic interaction restricts the atomic orbits to discrete states. The quantum transition progresses at a dimensional frequency of 1.094 megahertz meters. This constant emerges from cold fusion and Potletnov's experiments. If you do the math correctly it also doubles as Planck's constant. Frank Znidarsic (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html) **Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom000301)
[Vo]:Kiplinger 03/20/2008 - Federal Spending
Kiplinger Washington's Letter for March 20, 2008, in regards to FEDERAL SPENDING: *** Look for Congress to jump-start technology RD in fiscal 2009 by funding new initiatives focusing on renewable power, fuel cells for vehicles, nanotechnology and intelligent manufacturing. A new agency called ARPA-E will zero in on renewable energy, teaming with private firms to find ways to cut biofuels production costs. We expect lawmakers to fund the Advanced Research Projects Agency-Energy to the tune of about $5 billion a year for at least the next four years. ARPA-E researchers will also pursue ways to boost the efficiency of wind, solar, tidal and biomass power systems, among other projects. NIST will focus on fuel cells, nanotechnology and manufacturing, also in partnership with private firms. Public funds for the initiatives at the National Institute of Standards and Technology will likely top out at less than $100 million in the early stages but may be increased later. Clinton, Obama and McCain all strongly favor these programs. --- Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[VO]: Call for new Ozone process
There are new exotics entering the nation's water supply that we believe can be destroyed via ozone treatment but the existing processes for making ozone are both expensive and troubling. Why not use chlorine? Ozone was tried in the past. It does not persist in the water supply. Chlorine lasts longer. The persistence allows it to get to bugs that are partially shielded. The thing to do is remove suspended solids. The nasty bugs tend to hide in the particles. Then apply a persistent chemical like chlorine. Ammonia can be also added. It tends to keep the Chlorine in solution. Those nasty zebra mussels tend to clam up when exposed to a chemical toxin. Its a problem. I had a class D sewage license in the state of PA. After 9/11 they required me to go through a criminal background check. I did this and maintained my license for another 2 years. Then they required me to attend continuing training. I am an Electrical Engineer and they suggested that I take courses in basic electricity. It was not worth it to me. I have been living in North Carolina and no longer work in water treatment. I dropped the license. I am waiting for the requirement for continuing training on my PE license to come. When that happens they can have that license to. I never used it. In order to obtain a sewage license in PA license I had to have some operating experience in a class C waste treatment facility. My employer at that time arranged it. I was to be in charge of a wheel plant and this charge included a package class D waste treatment plant. There at the class C city of Johnstown plant I saw something really uckey. It appears that some people tie a knot in rubbers so they do leak where they place them. They later flush them. They wind up floating at the waste treatment facility. Some of them ferment and fill up with gas. They look like beach balls floating on slime. Yuck. Frank Z **Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom000301)
[Vo]:[OT]American Power
Hi, This contains some mind boggling numbers: http://prisonplanet.com/articles/march2008/180308_b_Collapse.htm Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:[OT]American Power
Howdy Robin, For every million dollars worth of goods produced by a manufacturing company, the firm must have 3 millions in cash to operate. The firm must either own it or borrow it. The US has a market based economy that exceeds 14 trillion dollars per year. That spells 42 trillion in credits, loans, bonds or stocks worth 42 trillion in cash or equivilant float during the year for the USA alone. Add other nations burgeoning enonomic demands for funds and there is simply not enough money to cover all the float. This opened to door to what is described as derivitives and the world now holds some 550 trillion dollars in IOU's. Most of them are worthless but nobody knows which. and nobody cares unless forced to prove a value for one.. which can't be done. An example of how they have evolved into make believe can be learned by studying two recent blowups.. Bear Stearns and Carlyle Capital. The world demand for cash or equal is so great that interest rates on loans to business can be 20% year. An entity puts up 100k in cash to buy a 1 mil bond that pays 10% year.He has his actual cash outlay returned in a year. Since everybody in the investment banking industry was doing it.. so it was ok and besides the govt needs the money to run the Iraq war on credit now exceeding 5 trillion spent. In the case of Bear Stearns and Carlyle Capital.. the guys were NOT even bothering to put up the 100k down on the mil in bonding... they furnished an IOU. Kabloom ! the thing got outa hand and they wound up with 600 billion in paper airplanes that wont fly. Now for a firm with a supposed capital base of some 30 bil ... holding worthless bonds with face value of 600 bil can keep ya awake at night. Are any other investment bankers playing this game?? the question should be .. is there anyone NOT. Carlyle Capital.. a wanna be .. bought some of these worthless bonds and borrowed 31 times their face value in order to loan the money out at super interest rates to businesses desperate for funds to keep their superheated sales going. The fed could have let the bear fall.. except.. err... well.. what's the alternate ?? shut down everything on earth. Richard Robin wrote, This contains some mind boggling numbers:
