Re: [Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy'
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 1 Apr 2008 13:15:57 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Wow - this guy Glen Kertz - who has an operating system (pictured) so his claims are based on actual results - sez he can produce about 100,000 gallons of algae oil peracre per year, compared to about 30 gallons per acre from corn; 50 gallons fromsoybeans. That appears to be the highest of the figures which have been claimed in the various published reports. [snip] I suspect strongly, that the number quoted is a projection based upon his calculations, rather than an actual measurement. In order for it to be an actual measurement the algae would have to be *extremely* efficient at converting sunlight into chemical energy. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
[Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy'
Jones, You're right about ethanol of course, but PV is real nice IMHO, no moving part, no pollution, probably the highest overall efficiency, even at Nanosolar's present 9 to 10% sun-to-electric efficiency. Even if the 50% figure for sun-to-algoil was true --I am skeptical too--, what would be the overall sun-to-wheel efficiency? Michel - Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 10:15 PM Subject: [Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy' ... It seems prudent that the huge amounts of money being poured into ethanol and thin-film solar cells should be discouraged and redirected to Algoil... or am I missing something?
Re: [Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy'
Michel You're right about ethanol of course, but PV is real nice IMHO, no moving part, no pollution, probably the highest overall efficiency, even at Nanosolar's present 9 to 10% sun-to-electric efficiency. Even if the 50% figure for sun-to-algoil was true --I am skeptical too--, what would be the overall sun-to-wheel efficiency? I am not sure efficiency is the main concern. If the comparative cost of the oil produced is close but acceptable, and the dollars stay at home instead of going into the hands of our enemies: Saudi Arabia in particular, then we are better off. Arabia is the home of anti-Western terrorism and the sponsor of Bin Laden, and that is all the convincing any of us should need. Algoil would also allow us to walk out Iraq almost immediately. But in addition to the stay-at-home dollars which is the big advantage (even if we must pay slightly more) we get a stable currency and a large proactive mitigation of CO2. But a major point not yet made is to remember that Kertz's algae produce 50% oil and almost 50% protein (food), so if the efficiency is 35% for the oil - it is 70% for the net biomass, and the food may be just as important as the oil to the third world. This is especially true since corn is being used to make ethanol and is comparatively low in protein anyway. But the most important point for a shift of investment dollars is that a decent ROI for nanosolar panels is nonexistent if you include all costs, and eliminate tax benefits. They are hiding major problems ! Some bloggers and proponents of algae fully believe that pond algae gives 4 times higher return per investment dollar than thin-film solar panels, and there are figures to support this, which of course nanosolar advocates try to minimize. The only thing which will convince most of us, and in particular: the potential investors in alternative energy- is the comparative bottom line of a fully operating system like that of Kertz. His may not be the best approach however. Despite his glowing claims, it is likely (if not obvious) that his vertical growth thing is not going to give as great a ROI because of the very high cost per acre of the enclosed space- not as high as nanosolar but twice as high as force-fed CO2 ponds. To my thinking the best implementation of Algoil is to put these CO2 ponds in immediately adjoining existing grid plants; which now belch CO2 directly into the air. That is win-win, and even though we want to see coal eliminated, eventually. In reality, that goal will take decades and in the meantime Algoil can strongly mitigate the problem. BTW has everyone seen the Nova (PBS) episode relating to global dimming? This is a big discovery, and hugely important if the numbers are accurate, because it explains two issues: 1) why a substantial minority of experts doubt the full significance of *global warming* and are actually partly correct, but at the same time 2) are doubly wrong in their erroneous models for the future effects. You must include the mitigating effects of global dimming in the past and how that has maxed-out. Without global dimming, global warming would already have pushed us past the point-of-no-return (which is the melting of the huge methane clathrate deposits) - and which will happen in 15 years anyway, without some mitigation of the problem. Nearly the whole state of Florida and most of Louisiana along with Boston and NYC will be gone within the lifetime of our children- if we do nothing! It is a very powerful message, far more factual than what Al Gore (Al Bore to his enemies) has produced; and I hope everyone who wants to weigh-in on what they see as a minimal impact of global warming (so far) will view this Nova special. Personally, and in somewhat of a reversal (or maturation) of belief I would now even have to agree with the skeptics that the impact of CO2 has been somewhat minimal to date, except in Alaska and Greenland, where it is more severe than the skeptics realize. However, I would add that it is minimal to the same extent as a small crack in the bottom of a large dam is minimal That large dam is metaphorically the trillions of tons of frozen methane - which if released due to higher ocean temps, is far worse, as a greenhouse gas, than is CO2. Thank heavens for global dimming. Jones
[Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy'
Let me correct this: a major point not yet made is to remember that Kertz's algae produce 50% oil and almost 50% protein (food), so if the efficiency is 35% for the oil - it is 70% for the net biomass, and the food may be just as important as the oil to the third world. This is especially true since corn is being used to make ethanol and is comparatively low in protein anyway. Well that is surely wildly optimistic. Kertz's technique appears to be between 25-30% efficient for the oil, which is half of the biomass. That is: if we could believe that the numbers presented by him are fully accurate, and also fully scalable to many acres, and fairly robust, weather-proof, etc? This would actually reconcile his numbers with those already published by others which claim that Algae conversion efficiency can go up to 50% of the solar energy. It should be noted that there are also far lower figures than that in the older literature. And even so, it would be 50% for the total biomass *on a best case scenario* of which half may be lipids. One should then discount that number by the usual factors which almost always make complicated processes come-out to be less efficient than the best case scenario- but also realizing that here, the best possible bio-engineered scum has probably not yet been found or hybridized. If there was ever a good place for genetic engineering to be put to good use, this would seem to be it. Bottom line: even if Kertz is off on the high side by 100%- the system is better than anything else which has such an advantageous ecological footprint. Even wind energy does not actively remove CO2- plus as mentioned, there is little reason that the algae site cannot share its required land with windmills. I've never been to a desert that wasn't windy. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy'
--- On Wed, 4/2/08, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not sure efficiency is the main concern. If the comparative cost of the oil produced is close but acceptable, and the dollars stay at home instead of going into the hands of our enemies: Saudi Arabia in particular, then we are better off. Arabia is the home of anti-Western terrorism and the sponsor of Bin Laden, and that is all the convincing any of us should need. Algoil would also allow us to walk out Iraq almost immediately. But in addition to the stay-at-home dollars which is the big advantage (even if we must pay slightly more) we get a stable currency and a large proactive mitigation of CO2. Actually, when the major oil companies have run out of making large profits from the asset appreciation of the reserves they now own, they might be convinced to go for this idea in a big way. Think of the business they are in now and compare it to algae farming and the chemical processing that would follow it. Locating and owning optimum sites for algae farming could replace exploration and drilling. While they wouldn't be the same sort of refineries, oil company engineers could do what they do best, designing and implementing the large scale chemical processing plants that give us our present petroleum products. Let's face it. These guys are really good at pumping and chemically transforming huge amounts of liquid and gaseous stuff. M. You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
Re: [Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy'
From Jones, ... Locating and owning optimum sites for algae farming could replace exploration and drilling. While they wouldn't be the same sort of refineries, oil company engineers could do what they do best, designing and implementing the large scale chemical processing plants that give us our present petroleum products. Let's face it. These guys are really good at pumping and chemically transforming huge amounts of liquid and gaseous stuff. I agree. One would think that algoil refineries would be right up their alley. I hope some junior oil exec is doing his best to plant the seeds of corporate expansion. Exxon-Algoil. If it's good enough for our stock holders, it's good enough for Independent Republic of Texas. And now, back to Jericho! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_(TV_series) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Re: Algae: 'The ultimate in renewable energy'
--- OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. One would think that algoil refineries would be right up their alley. I suppose Algore will try to take credit for algoil. You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
[Vo]:BLP Announcement
The BLP website at www.blacklightpower.com now has new material on energy generation. Mike Carrell.
Re: [Vo]:BLP Announcement
From Mike Carrell: The BLP website at www.blacklightpower.com now has new material on energy generation. Mike Carrell. Thanks, Mike! Exerpts from: http://www.blacklightpower.com/applications.shtml#BlackLightPowerPlants ... Blacklight Power has recently achieved a breakthrough in power generation by the invention of a solid fuel that uses conventional chemical reactions to generate the catalyst and atomic hydrogen at high reactant densities that in turn controllably achieves very high power densities. The energy gain is well above that required to regenerate the solid fuel, and experimental evidence confirms the theoretical energy balance per weight of the hydrogen consumed of 1000 times that of the most energetic fuel known. Consequently, the mass balance and cost per unit energy is projected to be much lower than that of burning fossil fuels. Plant designs utilize continuous regeneration of the solid fuel mixture using known industrial processes, and the only consumable, hydrogen, is obtained ultimately from water due to the enormous net energy release relative to combustion. [A solid fuel? That's interesting. It does sound like a new development. It will be interesting to see what that solid fuel comprises. - svj] ... Based on empirical data and experience, BlackLight believes it is reasonable to scale in factors of ten to one hundred. Then, BlackLight intends to rely on existing technologies to convert thermal power to electric power. As BlackLight devices generate surface heat at grades comparable to existing commercial fire boxes in natural gas and coal-fired plants, existing heat-to- electric technologies such as gas turbine, micro-turbine and Sterling engines can be melded with BlackLight power cells to generate electricity, as well as space and process heat. [Sounds encouraging. But what really has changed from what has already been stated for years out at the BLP web site? Can some of Vo's experts weigh in on the matter? Mike?] Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:BLP Announcement
I bet it comes from the ocean. ;-) Terry On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:49 PM, OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From Mike Carrell: The BLP website at www.blacklightpower.com now has new material on energy generation. Mike Carrell. Thanks, Mike! Exerpts from: http://www.blacklightpower.com/applications.shtml#BlackLightPowerPlants ... Blacklight Power has recently achieved a breakthrough in power generation by the invention of a solid fuel that uses conventional chemical reactions to generate the catalyst and atomic hydrogen at high reactant densities that in turn controllably achieves very high power densities. The energy gain is well above that required to regenerate the solid fuel, and experimental evidence confirms the theoretical energy balance per weight of the hydrogen consumed of 1000 times that of the most energetic fuel known. Consequently, the mass balance and cost per unit energy is projected to be much lower than that of burning fossil fuels. Plant designs utilize continuous regeneration of the solid fuel mixture using known industrial processes, and the only consumable, hydrogen, is obtained ultimately from water due to the enormous net energy release relative to combustion. [A solid fuel? That's interesting. It does sound like a new development. It will be interesting to see what that solid fuel comprises. - svj] ... Based on empirical data and experience, BlackLight believes it is reasonable to scale in factors of ten to one hundred. Then, BlackLight intends to rely on existing technologies to convert thermal power to electric power. As BlackLight devices generate surface heat at grades comparable to existing commercial fire boxes in natural gas and coal-fired plants, existing heat-to- electric technologies such as gas turbine, micro-turbine and Sterling engines can be melded with BlackLight power cells to generate electricity, as well as space and process heat. [Sounds encouraging. But what really has changed from what has already been stated for years out at the BLP web site? Can some of Vo's experts weigh in on the matter? Mike?] Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[VO]: OT: Numbers and cucumbers
Howdy Vorts, Ever get the feeling the govmnet may be stretching the truth about subprime mortgage actual losses. Do the math of actual true losses to the banking and lending industry on foreclosures. Using Detroit as an example,, figures reported show 10,000 homes were in the loop last quarter for foreclosing.. figure the actual loss to the lender equates 150k per home.. that's 1.5 bil loss. Multiply that figure across the nation and an estimate of under 300 bil can be a reasonable combined loss to all lending agencies. The actual loss is far below that estimate because of the asset value is tangible. So far the Fed has pumped nearly one trillion into saving the economy, plus lower the interest rates which adjust to some 2.3 trillion alone. All blamed on the subprime mess.. it ain't true! Where did the money go? The losses claimed by news reports DO NOT ADD UP. Looking at Bear Stearns , we learn that money people were borrowing 90% of stock value to buy stocks and securities. Some reports indicate the fast buck guys were putting up 1 mil to finance a bil in stock purchases. making a killing on the spread and repeating the process.. margin calls put the speculators in real jeapardy and as the pyramid began to topple, people like Bear Stearns wound up with some 500 billion in unrecovered loans outstanding and stock prices plummeting when the Dow dropped from 14 to 12. Anyway you figure there was some 5-25 trillion losses with a 2000 point Dow spread. This is where the losses are and not the subprime.. sumbuddys blowing smoke and it's name is chairman budinski. Turning the SEC over to the Fed is tantamount to the fox guarding the henhouse.. or letting the Houston welfare office keep their own books. Meanwhile back at the ranch, our employees are enrolled in a supposed annuity plan developed by Fortis Benefit Guaranty Corp.. well.. err.. it seems this was gerramandered into a sorta 401 k instead of a annuity insurance when Fortis went to Holland and sold the pig to Hartford Insurance, and now to Edward Jones.. and its keyed to the mutuals. A simple statement on actual worth of a typical annuity with contributions of 2,000.00 per year ( the company forks over the money) now looks like the us dollar vs the Euro. And the solution offered by the US govment.. lets combine and put everything under the Fed, a private business owned by 12 banks.. well used to be US banks but.. The reason?? because the Fed has demonstrated thier ability to think above the problem.. which to Texans mean throw enough money at the problem to create a bigger problem and forget the first. Richard
Re: [VO]: OT: Numbers and cucumbers
That's a very informative analysis, Richard. Thanks. --- On Wed, 4/2/08, R C Macaulay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: R C Macaulay [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [VO]: OT: Numbers and cucumbers To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 2, 2008, 7:54 PM Howdy Vorts, Ever get the feeling the govmnet may be stretching the truth about subprime mortgage actual losses. Do the math of actual true losses to the banking and lending industry on foreclosures. Using Detroit as an example,, figures reported show 10,000 homes were in the loop last quarter for foreclosing.. figure the actual loss to the lender equates 150k per home.. that's 1.5 bil loss. Multiply that figure across the nation and an estimate of under 300 bil can be a reasonable combined loss to all lending agencies. The actual loss is far below that estimate because of the asset value is tangible. So far the Fed has pumped nearly one trillion into saving the economy, plus lower the interest rates which adjust to some 2.3 trillion alone. All blamed on the subprime mess.. it ain't true! Where did the money go? The losses claimed by news reports DO NOT ADD UP. Looking at Bear Stearns , we learn that money people were borrowing 90% of stock value to buy stocks and securities. Some reports indicate the fast buck guys were putting up 1 mil to finance a bil in stock purchases. making a killing on the spread and repeating the process.. margin calls put the speculators in real jeapardy and as the pyramid began to topple, people like Bear Stearns wound up with some 500 billion in unrecovered loans outstanding and stock prices plummeting when the Dow dropped from 14 to 12. Anyway you figure there was some 5-25 trillion losses with a 2000 point Dow spread. This is where the losses are and not the subprime.. sumbuddys blowing smoke and it's name is chairman budinski. Turning the SEC over to the Fed is tantamount to the fox guarding the henhouse.. or letting the Houston welfare office keep their own books. Meanwhile back at the ranch, our employees are enrolled in a supposed annuity plan developed by Fortis Benefit Guaranty Corp.. well.. err.. it seems this was gerramandered into a sorta 401 k instead of a annuity insurance when Fortis went to Holland and sold the pig to Hartford Insurance, and now to Edward Jones.. and its keyed to the mutuals. A simple statement on actual worth of a typical annuity with contributions of 2,000.00 per year ( the company forks over the money) now looks like the us dollar vs the Euro. And the solution offered by the US govment.. lets combine and put everything under the Fed, a private business owned by 12 banks.. well used to be US banks but.. The reason?? because the Fed has demonstrated thier ability to think above the problem.. which to Texans mean throw enough money at the problem to create a bigger problem and forget the first. Richard You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
[Vo]:Stupid Academic stunt
Jed commented LENR opponents are stupid I replied They can't be that stupid, they must have an agenda. Then I sent the letter below, and got the following reply. I'm afraid that Jed is right, they really are stupid. Dr. Krauss gave a speech at the Atheist Conference in which he went on about the big bang happening spontaneously, presumably out of the ZPE, but he can't see how we could extract any energy out of it. BTW, Dr. Krauss was the department chairman. Lawrence Krauss wrote: Thanks here is my comment, intelligent or otherwise: This work stands somewhat below a belief in god as far as credibility is concerned. :) Best MLK Lawrence Krauss Ambrose Swasey Professor of Physics and Astronomy and Director, Center for Education and Research in Cosmology and Astrophysics Case Western Reserve University Sent from my iPhone On Mar 31, 2008, at 3:38 PM, thomas malloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Dr. Krauss; I missed you at the Atheist Conference. I'm part of a group that discusses scientific anomalies. A new source of energy is a frequent topic. Several physicists, including Puthoff and Rauch, have theorized that it might be possible to cohere the Zero Point Energy. While many researchers have claimed to have done it, there is little detectable energy.Then there are the researchers have contended that it is possible to produce low energy nuclear reactions. Then there are the claims of Randall Mills of Black Light Power. We are looking for people who share these interests and can make intelligent comments about them. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
