Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
What I think would be a good wake up call would be for someone (the BBC) to do a six part drama that is as historically accurate as it can be that covers the experience of a family on Easter Island as they went through the period when they ran out of natural resources. I think that would be a very powerful wake up call for as all. Anyone have any contacts? Nigel On 09/10/2012 04:55, fznidar...@aol.com wrote: The Easter Island society ran out of wood and could not fish. The society died out. Could that happen to us? Maybe the future is not so great.
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Few ideas to add... Some cogniticians have noticed the importance of the capacity of curiosity and boredom in learning. Game is important too. the kindergarten teacher gave us a pamphlet about kids education , and it is clearly said the the job of kids is to play. (same for scientists IMHO). Note that all of that is not specific to human, not even to primates, but seems to have strongly been developped by mammals (young rabits love to play, cows are very curious)... About sentient being, I suspect that the connection between an autonomous adaptative brain, and a physically constrained autonomous body, with many useless actioners and captors, yet unsifficient, is the key... Brain learn to be sentient by facing the complexity of controlling an overly-complex body, with need to filter, coordinate, accepting data flood and missing data... You cannot develop sentient brain with a rationally designed body.. About economy I've read an old article about a robot society of miners, collaboration in a free-market word. they were exchanging energy money against work. there were few rule for transaction, I remember: - price is established by negociation at 3 minimum - never let a brother die, what ever is his efficiency or price. implicitly all actors were of the same size, even if there was handicaped robots, living of public solidarity, but very useful sometime when everybody was needed. By the way that lesson was learned too in Commando training in France. Commando training is a sequence of physical challenge needed to be solved by 10 soldiers, not 9. For training they always include an handicapped soldier in the team (fat, stupid, awkward...). After that everybody know that they need every finger of the team... And the handicapped soldier is respected, proud, and often get better... that idea that you have to accept a kind of free-market economy, but also the need to protect any weak actor, to avoid to lose him, is also found in the book the next convergence. solidarity, inclusiveness is rational. It is in our DNA of social animal, like dogs/wolves, and we are social because alone we are weak, but together because we can coordinate our various weak strength, we become hugely stronger than lone fighters. You learn that in the army. The other place where I learn that was in a theater troupe. You can only forget that lesson if life is too easy, like in occidental countries. 2012/10/9 Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com Behind
Re: [Vo]:Progress from the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (Celani replication)
Citation from a Dutch patent that could also be applicable to Constantaan: The oxide of the more noble metal may be, in general, by treatment with hydrogen at elevated temperature to some extent be reduced. The oxide of the less noble metal reacts not with hydrogen, even at highly elevated temperatureno Hydrogen is ais hydrogen atoms contained in the alloy. As a result, dissociation of gaseous molecular hydrogen requires for absorption in the Iegering. Now it is possible that during thermal treating the oxide of the less noble components of the alloy itself as a three-dimensional oxide of the alloy on the opperviak whey is separated off and in such a way that the surface of the alloy does not completely through the oxide is covered. In this case, dissociation of hydrogen for those parts of the surface where the more noble metal is present may occur. Migration through the surface layer to the on- 30 underlying Iegering then leads record (large amounts) hydrogen. The removal or neutralization of oxides is to 'activate' indicated. On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 11:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: That is certainly an unusual effect if it is active in Celani's device. We know that traveling wave tubes work with electrons and electromagnetic waves and ocean waves interact with the wind. The concept of a shock wave allowing some form of energy reinforcement with the wire has interesting possibilities. I wonder if the shape of the wave front impacting the potential outer tube microphones would reveal if something of this nature is occurring? Your concept reminds me of the cone shaped pattern of a sonic boom. I have been thinking that surface features from which the heat impulses originate are quite small in dimension and randomly distributed around the circumference of the wire. Another concept would be to consider some form of mechanical resonant structure that depended upon the cross section area of the cylinder for ultrasonic reinforcement. If we allow these ultrasonic resonances a whole new family of possibilities emerge. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Oct 8, 2012 4:11 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Progress from the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (Celani replication) One further thought/speculation on this. I was reading the other day that the “Light Gas Gun” which is a hypersonic gun developed by the military, allows compressed hydrogen to produce acceleration of about 5-6 km/sec. This is similar to the speed of sound in nickel and about 4 times faster than the speed of sound in unpressurized hydrogen. If one has a heated nickel wire in a pressurized H2 gas, and both have the same (effective) speed of sound, but the gas in cooled at 90 degrees with a radial vector to the outer wall, does this set the stage for some kind of coherent wave effect, perhaps a travelling wave providing shock wave pulses along the wire? Given the size of Celani’s reactor, and compared to a resonance wavelength of hydrogen, (mentioned below) … hmmm… looks pretty close to 2x wave, no? IOW there could be a lot going on here, that even Celani did not realize… __ ___ FWIW: The Energetics Paper, recently discussed, shows the “burst effect” from ultrasound in much greater emphasis. But we expect it there. It is not impossible that ultrasound, or something akin to it, is also involved in Celani, even though his experiment is gas phase. There could be a surface effect on the charged wire - which is similar to ultrasound. Since there was no audible signature from the start (apparently) there has been no reason for Celani to look for “inadvertent ultrasound”, but … hey… it could be worth a look. According to Wiki: “Ultrasound devices operate with frequencies from 20 kHz up to several gigahertz.” Kinda muddles the distinction between RF and ultrasound, no?. Don’t forget the famous 21 cm line of hydrogen … It would be within an ultrasound range, if Wiki is correct. From: David Roberson . I find it intriguing that Celani's LENR output seems to occur in the form of many individual bursts while most of my earlier thoughts had been that the material behaved according to some larger scaled system.
Re: [Vo]:Progress from the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (Celani replication)
legering = alloy (sorry for the bad machine translation) On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:17 PM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.com wrote: Citation from a Dutch patent that could also be applicable to Constantaan: The oxide of the more noble metal may be, in general, by treatment with hydrogen at elevated temperature to some extent be reduced. The oxide of the less noble metal reacts not with hydrogen, even at highly elevated temperatureno Hydrogen is ais hydrogen atoms contained in the alloy. As a result, dissociation of gaseous molecular hydrogen requires for absorption in the Iegering. Now it is possible that during thermal treating the oxide of the less noble components of the alloy itself as a three-dimensional oxide of the alloy on the opperviak whey is separated off and in such a way that the surface of the alloy does not completely through the oxide is covered. In this case, dissociation of hydrogen for those parts of the surface where the more noble metal is present may occur. Migration through the surface layer to the on- 30 underlying Iegering then leads record (large amounts) hydrogen. The removal or neutralization of oxides is to 'activate' indicated. On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 11:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: That is certainly an unusual effect if it is active in Celani's device. We know that traveling wave tubes work with electrons and electromagnetic waves and ocean waves interact with the wind. The concept of a shock wave allowing some form of energy reinforcement with the wire has interesting possibilities. I wonder if the shape of the wave front impacting the potential outer tube microphones would reveal if something of this nature is occurring? Your concept reminds me of the cone shaped pattern of a sonic boom. I have been thinking that surface features from which the heat impulses originate are quite small in dimension and randomly distributed around the circumference of the wire. Another concept would be to consider some form of mechanical resonant structure that depended upon the cross section area of the cylinder for ultrasonic reinforcement. If we allow these ultrasonic resonances a whole new family of possibilities emerge. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Oct 8, 2012 4:11 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Progress from the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (Celani replication) One further thought/speculation on this. I was reading the other day that the “Light Gas Gun” which is a hypersonic gun developed by the military, allows compressed hydrogen to produce acceleration of about 5-6 km/sec. This is similar to the speed of sound in nickel and about 4 times faster than the speed of sound in unpressurized hydrogen. If one has a heated nickel wire in a pressurized H2 gas, and both have the same (effective) speed of sound, but the gas in cooled at 90 degrees with a radial vector to the outer wall, does this set the stage for some kind of coherent wave effect, perhaps a travelling wave providing shock wave pulses along the wire? Given the size of Celani’s reactor, and compared to a resonance wavelength of hydrogen, (mentioned below) … hmmm… looks pretty close to 2x wave, no? IOW there could be a lot going on here, that even Celani did not realize… __ ___ FWIW: The Energetics Paper, recently discussed, shows the “burst effect” from ultrasound in much greater emphasis. But we expect it there. It is not impossible that ultrasound, or something akin to it, is also involved in Celani, even though his experiment is gas phase. There could be a surface effect on the charged wire - which is similar to ultrasound. Since there was no audible signature from the start (apparently) there has been no reason for Celani to look for “inadvertent ultrasound”, but … hey… it could be worth a look. According to Wiki: “Ultrasound devices operate with frequencies from 20 kHz up to several gigahertz.” Kinda muddles the distinction between RF and ultrasound, no?. Don’t forget the famous 21 cm line of hydrogen … It would be within an ultrasound range, if Wiki is correct. From: David Roberson . I find it intriguing that Celani's LENR output seems to occur in the form of many individual bursts while most of my earlier thoughts had been that the material behaved according to some larger scaled system.
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: My prediction is that first reusable spacecraft will reach orbit in early 2020's. The first reusable spacecraft achieved orbit on April 12, 1981.
RE: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
From: Jouni ... Also the difference between humans and most of the other smart animals, such as elephants, dogs and dolphins is that they lack motivation to develop themselves although here it is only a matter of degree, not qualitative difference such as between animals and computers. I realize the following reply is changing the subject a bit but I disagree with the conjecture that cetaceans (dolphins, etc...) lack motivation to develop themselves. A common standard of intelligence, or sentience, is the sophistication of play the species is capable of engaging in. The following You-Tube clip clearly shows a sophistication beyond the comprehension of many humans concerning the ability to generate bubble rings. These dolphins not only know how to control the reaction, they do so at their own whim. IMHO, it's not just the ability to generate these vortex bubble rings (Without the advantage of dexterous appendages like hands) it's how they interact with the artificially induced objects they have created, constantly guiding and nudging them along, and occasionally splitting them. There is deliberate calculated intent based on a playful intelligence that has acquired an intimate knowledge of physics involved in the water environment they live in. Granted, humans have learned to create similar bubble rings with their own mouths. We had to learn how to do it, just like dolphins had to learn how to do it - which they do much better than we. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwpNR=1v=mHyTOcfF99o In the following link I talk a little bit more about my own brief encounter with a small group of dolphins I saw in San Diego: http://personalpen.orionworks.com/essay-toroidal-vortices-dolphin-speak.htm BTW, dolphins and primates recognize their own image when presented with a mirror. That is another mark of sentience. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
I forgot the mention the fact that personalpen.orionworks.com is still under construction. Many of the links don’t work. ...Too little time... too much to do. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
fznidar...@aol.com wrote: The Easter Island society ran out of wood and could not fish. The society died out. They did not die out. They were still there a century or two later when Europeans showed up. Granted, they were in dire straits. They destroyed their own environment, apparently for religious reasons. See J. Diamond, Collapse. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: There will be two options. First is a prefabrication that will come in massive scale that everyone in the face of the Earth will notice it in November 2012. Because Chinese are going to prefabricate and assemble the world's tallest building that is to be completed in March 2013. That is interesting! Many years ago Japanese architects working on plans for super-tall building concluded that the only way to build them in a reasonable amount of time would be to use robots and prefabricated parts. Second option is just brute force 3D-printing of houses. This process will suit well for two storey bungalows. So, we have serious problem in near future. Do we want a mile high megacities where a single prefabricated skyscraper will actually hold the whole city with full city infrastructure or that everyone has afford to dirt cheap bungalows with huge environmental footprint? That depends on the location. In some places we want high density, and in other places low density. I would love to see mile-high prefabricated food factories. In the book, I assumed the highest building we can make is ~500 m, the height of the World Trade Center. I assumed that multi-story food factories would have a shorter distance between floors than buildings intended for human occupation. In other words, food would be grown on shelves about 1 m apart, so you can fit 400 or more in a 500 m building. Anyway, based on this, I figured that we could grow as many crops in an area the size of Greater New York City as we now grow in the entire U.S.A. If we can make building 1000 m tall, that would be even better. We would not actually cram all of the building in one location. I have in mind building them in or near every major city and town. We would not actually have to have building poke up 1000 m to do this. They might be 500 m below ground and 500 above. Most people in favor of this intend to use sunlight which means they would be above ground. I was thinking of using LED artificial illumination, like the Cosmoplant factories in Japan (which went bankrupt). Less extreme versions of this idea are shown here: http://www.verticalfarm.com/ - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
I had thought that they destroyed their own environment through overharvesting and overhunting, ie the population was to large to live sustainably. This is not a particualrly religious reason. I had also gathered that the statues etc were an attempt to appease their gods in the hope that the gods would get them out of the mess that they had got themselves into. No Gods appeared to wave their magic wands. I've had a quick look at some of the summaries of Collapse and that seems to be what J Diamond says as well Nigel On 09/10/2012 14:36, Jed Rothwell wrote: fznidar...@aol.com wrote: The Easter Island society ran out of wood and could not fish. The society died out. They did not die out. They were still there a century or two later when Europeans showed up. Granted, they were in dire straits. They destroyed their own environment, apparently for religious reasons. See J. Diamond, Collapse. - Jed
[Vo]:Evidence V1 Has Left the Sol System
http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/2012/10/more-evidence-that-voyager-has-exited-the-solar-system/ To cross this boundary scientists say they would need to observe three things: 1. An increase in high-energy cosmic rays originating from outside our solar system 2. A drop in charged particles emanating from the sun. 3. A change in the direction of the magnetic field.
RE: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
This economic system has already been developed. It is called socialism, or what some people would call communism. When there is no more need for human labor, it is obvious that governments are going to have to allocate resources. Capitalism obviously won't work. Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:36:21 -0400 From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: It's my suspicion that with ensuing advancements of technology, automation and robotics, traditional capitalism as it is currently practiced will have to evolve... Capitalism, communism, Feudalism, mercantalism and every other economic system ever invented can be defined as: A system to allocate human labor, goods and services. Some of these systems have been efficient; others were inefficient. Some were just; others were unjust, and still others tyrannical. No economic system could exist until people achieved some level of agriculture and the ability to gather in villages and later towns and cities. Human labor is now losing value. Robots and intelligent computers are replacing human workers in many fields, including ones that people previously thought could never be done by machines. Within 20 to 100 years, human labor will be worthless. In the distant future, machines will supply all of the food we want. They will capable of supplying 10 times the food we want, or a thousand times. They will be capable of manufacturing a car for every driver, or 100,000 cars for every driver, or enough cars to cover the whole surface of Mars with automobiles in piles 100 cars high. Material scarcity and human labor allocation will become distant memories, the way waterborne infectious disease has in first world countries. The concept of economic justice will become meaningless. The distinction between capitalism and communism will be meaningless, like the difference between Protestants and Catholics is to an atheist. As this transition occurs, all economic systems will gradually collapse. This is already happening. When labor is worth nothing, you cannot predicate your economic system on it. With the Internet we have seen the cost of transferring information drop so close to zero it no longer matters. No one bothers to account for it. As that happened, people who made a living selling information that was difficult to access went out of business. It become like selling water by the river, as the Zen proverb has it. Some new economic system must emerge. It will not be capitalism or communism. No human institution lasts forever; when we have no need for these things, they will vanish as surely as Feudalism did, or slavery did in the first world. I am confident that something new will emerge. If we can devise these wonderful machines capable of fulfilling all of our material needs and desires, surely we can also devise some practical means to allocate the output of the machines so that everyone can have whatever they need, if not everything they desire. As Romney put it, even today, people feel they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing. Naturally, they feel that way! Since we can have these things in abundance in the first world, people have every right to feel that way. In the future, everyone living in every part of the solar system will take it for granted that they have a birthright to healthcare, food, housing, education, energy, internet access and much else. These things will cost nothing. Virtually nothing; the per capita cost to supply food, health care and so on will be roughly what it costs us today to supply a house with clean, potable water in a first-world household. That's $335 per year average in the U.S. Keeping track of such trivial expenses would be a waste of time. Collecting taxes to pay for them would be a waste of time. In any case, you can't collect taxes when most people do not bother to work, or have not need to work. Cold fusion will play a large roll in making this transition possible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
I've heard that the story of overcutting trees causing and ecologic is a legend. it seems that too small civilisation collapsed because of a series of dry years,while demography was too high. This is a small isolated island, and a climate bad sequence caused a black swan that swept the organisation of the society. I think that this was the same event that swept french kingdom... 2012/10/9 Nigel Dyer l...@thedyers.org.uk I had thought that they destroyed their own environment through overharvesting and overhunting, ie the population was to large to live sustainably. This is not a particualrly religious reason. I had also gathered that the statues etc were an attempt to appease their gods in the hope that the gods would get them out of the mess that they had got themselves into. No Gods appeared to wave their magic wands. I've had a quick look at some of the summaries of Collapse and that seems to be what J Diamond says as well Nigel On 09/10/2012 14:36, Jed Rothwell wrote: fznidar...@aol.com wrote: The Easter Island society ran out of wood and could not fish. The society died out. They did not die out. They were still there a century or two later when Europeans showed up. Granted, they were in dire straits. They destroyed their own environment, apparently for religious reasons. See J. Diamond, Collapse. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Evidence V1 Has Left the Sol System
...but has Elvis has left the solar system? ;-) harry On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/2012/10/more-evidence-that-voyager-has-exited-the-solar-system/ To cross this boundary scientists say they would need to observe three things: 1. An increase in high-energy cosmic rays originating from outside our solar system 2. A drop in charged particles emanating from the sun. 3. A change in the direction of the magnetic field.
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Socialism has always failed because it merely replaces private sector rent-seeking with public sector rent-seeking. You have to disintermediate the public sector bureaucracy with a citizen's dividend. On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.comwrote: This economic system has already been developed. It is called socialism, or what some people would call communism. When there is no more need for human labor, it is obvious that governments are going to have to allocate resources. Capitalism obviously won't work. -- Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:36:21 -0400 From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: It's my suspicion that with ensuing advancements of technology, automation and robotics, traditional capitalism as it is currently practiced will have to evolve... Capitalism, communism, Feudalism, mercantalism and every other economic system ever invented can be defined as: A system to allocate human labor, goods and services. Some of these systems have been efficient; others were inefficient. Some were just; others were unjust, and still others tyrannical. No economic system could exist until people achieved some level of agriculture and the ability to gather in villages and later towns and cities. Human labor is now losing value. Robots and intelligent computers are replacing human workers in many fields, including ones that people previously thought could never be done by machines. Within 20 to 100 years, human labor will be worthless. In the distant future, machines will supply all of the food we want. They will capable of supplying 10 times the food we want, or a thousand times. They will be capable of manufacturing a car for every driver, or 100,000 cars for every driver, or enough cars to cover the whole surface of Mars with automobiles in piles 100 cars high. Material scarcity and human labor allocation will become distant memories, the way waterborne infectious disease has in first world countries. The concept of economic justice will become meaningless. The distinction between capitalism and communism will be meaningless, like the difference between Protestants and Catholics is to an atheist. As this transition occurs, all economic systems will gradually collapse. This is already happening. When labor is worth nothing, you cannot predicate your economic system on it. With the Internet we have seen the cost of transferring information drop so close to zero it no longer matters. No one bothers to account for it. As that happened, people who made a living selling information that was difficult to access went out of business. It become like selling water by the river, as the Zen proverb has it. Some new economic system must emerge. It will not be capitalism or communism. No human institution lasts forever; when we have no need for these things, they will vanish as surely as Feudalism did, or slavery did in the first world. I am confident that something new will emerge. If we can devise these wonderful machines capable of fulfilling all of our material needs and desires, surely we can also devise some practical means to allocate the output of the machines so that everyone can have whatever they need, if not everything they desire. As Romney put it, even today, people feel they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing. Naturally, they feel that way! Since we can have these things in abundance in the first world, people have every right to feel that way. In the future, everyone living in every part of the solar system will take it for granted that they have a birthright to healthcare, food, housing, education, energy, internet access and much else. These things will cost nothing. Virtually nothing; the per capita cost to supply food, health care and so on will be roughly what it costs us today to supply a house with clean, potable water in a first-world household. That's $335 per year average in the U.S. Keeping track of such trivial expenses would be a waste of time. Collecting taxes to pay for them would be a waste of time. In any case, you can't collect taxes when most people do not bother to work, or have not need to work. Cold fusion will play a large roll in making this transition possible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years - Easter Island
On 10/9/2012 11:53 AM, Nigel Dyer wrote: I had thought that they destroyed their own environment through overharvesting and overhunting, ie the population was to large to live sustainably. This is not a particualrly religious reason. I had also gathered that the statues etc were an attempt to appease their gods in the hope that the gods would get them out of the mess that they had got themselves into. No Gods appeared to wave their magic wands. I've had a quick look at some of the summaries of Collapse and that seems to be what J Diamond says as well Nigel On 09/10/2012 14:36, Jed Rothwell wrote: fznidar...@aol.com wrote: The Easter Island society ran out of wood and could not fish. The society died out. They did not die out. They were still there a century or two later when Europeans showed up. Granted, they were in dire straits. They destroyed their own environment, apparently for religious reasons. See J. Diamond, Collapse. - Jed Just read, in Nat. Geographic, article on Easter Island. The best going theory now is apparently that the rats that the first settlers brought with them (as food stock, probably) were wildly successful. (No natural enemies). They ate all the tree seeds and the forest died out. Has the sound of truth. Ol' Bab
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard that the story of overcutting trees causing and ecologic is a legend. Not according to J. Diamond and other recent books. They cut all the trees to erect the statues. When a wooden British sailing ship arrived decades later, they came aboard and they were thrilled to see wood again. They reportedly stroked the wood in tears. It was one of the spooky moments in human history. We will feel the same way if we manage to flood the coasts and destroy North American agriculture with global warming -- as we may well do. We will pay a tremendous price for a trivial benefit. To say a few pennies per kilowatt hour we would destroy our food supplies and turn the whole nation into a stinking desert! - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Assuming in the near future advances in robotics automation will eventually manufacture all of our basic needs; we will be forced to redefine what gives us value and purpose as we go about the business of managing our daily lives. Regardless of whether we consciously realize it or not most of us tend to place a great deal of personal identification on the jobs we perform for approximately 40 - 60 hours a week - all in the name of paying the rent and putting food on the table. If 99% of jobs whose primary purpose had been to help us put food on the table or pay the rent become outsourced to the scourge of automation and robots much of society will lose a huge chunk of what gave them value and purpose in the management of their daily lives. We will have to find new activities that give us fulfillment and purpose. No doubt there will be a few lucky souls that won't have a problem finding useful and fulfilling activities to occupy all of their free time with. there will probably be a lot more professional surfers and holodeck players... and lots of contests to boot! But there will be also many who will struggle with their new freedoms. They will have a very hard time finding meaningful activities. They will feel lost in a sea of choices that seem to have no value to them. For some of these individuals addressing chronic depression or spiraling into cycles of self-destruction will become a major concern for which society will have to address. A future highly automated society will be in danger of spawning a much higher percentage of disenfranchised daredevils that will not make it past their 20s. Such issues may turn out to be the most important dangers society will have to grapple with for a long time. To counter these destructive problems I think it will be important for society to instill at a very early age a strong sense of self-improvement (whatever self-improvement might mean to that individual) combined with the importance of giving something collectively back to the society. It seems to me that evolution designed us biologically to struggle throughout most of our lives. If we didn't struggle we were likely to die of hunger or perhaps end up being eaten by other creatures including by our own species - who were at the time struggling more than we were. We MUST find better more constructive challenges in which to pit our biologically inherited sense of survival against. Instilling such characteristics in a more constructive way ought to help open up a golden age for all sorts of pursuits like, art, science, theoretical studies, technology, and the exploration of inner and outer space. * * * * * Finally, in the grand scheme of things I suspect society will eventually splinter into countless separate groups. Many groups will choose to go their separate ways across the galaxy, essentially becoming wandering nomads. Eventually they will lose touch with each other. Perhaps some will continue the never-ending quest for additional automation, their BORG-ification, though hopefully with a kinder gentler outcome. Where these folks will eventually end up, who knows - perhaps ultimately engrained within the quantum framework of the universe itself. Meanwhile, others will want to forget it all. Life is just too damned complicated, with so many choices and unwanted freedoms to grapple with! They will long for the good ol'days, of getting back to nature, of living in caves and dancing around camp fires, and creating legends based on distant memories of their forefathers fruit. They will welcome forgetting it all, of reentering the dreamland. For them the cycle of evolution begins anew. It would not surprise me in the least if that’s exactly how we came about on Earth many yarns ago. ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:OT: Mars Rover Spots Small Bright- Metallic Object
newer closup image at: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/proj/msl/redops/ods/surface/sol/00062/opgs/edr/ccam/CR0_403005421EDR_F0050104CCAM01062M_.JPG On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:08 PM, Ron Kita chiralex.k...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings Vortex-l, A small nail-like object was spotted near the Rover Arm. Be sure to enlarge the photo at the website to see this object: http://phys.org/news/2012-10-mars-rover-curiosity-scoops-bright.html Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Evidence V1 Has Left the Sol System
Harry sez: ...but has Elvis has left the solar system? ;-) Well... i dunno about Elvis, but I know where Buddy Holly resides these days: http://www.aliveandwellmovie.com/ Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
It's a lot better than trying to reform capitalism. Also, you can have robots running the government and allocating resources, so there would be no bureaucracy. Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:18:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years From: jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Socialism has always failed because it merely replaces private sector rent-seeking with public sector rent-seeking. You have to disintermediate the public sector bureaucracy with a citizen's dividend. On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: This economic system has already been developed. It is called socialism, or what some people would call communism. When there is no more need for human labor, it is obvious that governments are going to have to allocate resources. Capitalism obviously won't work. Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:36:21 -0400 From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: It's my suspicion that with ensuing advancements of technology, automation and robotics, traditional capitalism as it is currently practiced will have to evolve... Capitalism, communism, Feudalism, mercantalism and every other economic system ever invented can be defined as: A system to allocate human labor, goods and services. Some of these systems have been efficient; others were inefficient. Some were just; others were unjust, and still others tyrannical. No economic system could exist until people achieved some level of agriculture and the ability to gather in villages and later towns and cities. Human labor is now losing value. Robots and intelligent computers are replacing human workers in many fields, including ones that people previously thought could never be done by machines. Within 20 to 100 years, human labor will be worthless. In the distant future, machines will supply all of the food we want. They will capable of supplying 10 times the food we want, or a thousand times. They will be capable of manufacturing a car for every driver, or 100,000 cars for every driver, or enough cars to cover the whole surface of Mars with automobiles in piles 100 cars high. Material scarcity and human labor allocation will become distant memories, the way waterborne infectious disease has in first world countries. The concept of economic justice will become meaningless. The distinction between capitalism and communism will be meaningless, like the difference between Protestants and Catholics is to an atheist. As this transition occurs, all economic systems will gradually collapse. This is already happening. When labor is worth nothing, you cannot predicate your economic system on it. With the Internet we have seen the cost of transferring information drop so close to zero it no longer matters. No one bothers to account for it. As that happened, people who made a living selling information that was difficult to access went out of business. It become like selling water by the river, as the Zen proverb has it. Some new economic system must emerge. It will not be capitalism or communism. No human institution lasts forever; when we have no need for these things, they will vanish as surely as Feudalism did, or slavery did in the first world. I am confident that something new will emerge. If we can devise these wonderful machines capable of fulfilling all of our material needs and desires, surely we can also devise some practical means to allocate the output of the machines so that everyone can have whatever they need, if not everything they desire. As Romney put it, even today, people feel they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing. Naturally, they feel that way! Since we can have these things in abundance in the first world, people have every right to feel that way. In the future, everyone living in every part of the solar system will take it for granted that they have a birthright to healthcare, food, housing, education, energy, internet access and much else. These things will cost nothing. Virtually nothing; the per capita cost to supply food, health care and so on will be roughly what it costs us today to supply a house with clean, potable water in a first-world household. That's $335 per year average in the U.S. Keeping track of such trivial expenses would be a waste of time. Collecting taxes to pay for them would be a waste of time. In any case, you can't collect taxes when most people do not bother to work, or have not need to work. Cold fusion will play a large roll in making this transition possible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Sorry, would need to wait at least a thousand years for that. On 09-Oct-12 19:44, Jarold McWilliams wrote: It's a lot better than trying to reform capitalism. Also, you can have robots running the government and allocating resources, so there would be no bureaucracy.
[Vo]:Is Mo a typo?
http://infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/CelaniDemos.pdf This article indicates molybdenum is in the alloy, instead of manganese. Normally constantan has 1-2% Mn. Is it a typo? The reason this detail could be important relates to Mill's theory but it looks like a typo. attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:Replication of Chuck Sites Nickel/Boron Experiment
Thanks for all of the ideas Chuck. I will be out of town for a few days, but will give this method a try when I get back. I just got to thinking if I clean the nickels using a torch, it might seal up the tiny cracks in the metal through melting. I can try it both ways. I have set up a styrofoam minnow bucket in which I will submerge a sealed cell for the electrolysis. I can then measure the temperature change in the surrounding water and get a more precise measure of energy output. I also plan to drill more holes through the nickels, and add additional thoriated tungsten rods through these holes. I'm also set up to be able to take voltage and current measurements in addition to temperature. I'm also working on setting up a control system with an Android smartphone to provide pulsed DC power. If I get some good results with manual measurements, I hope to be able to use the same setup for automated data logging. Take care, Jack On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Chuck Sites cbsit...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jack, It's funny you said if this is resistive heating, then it highly efficient. I had a similar thoughts back in the day. Let me share some thoughts on the electrolysis of cupronickel in sodium carbonate. Sodium carbonate does make a for a good electrolyte in Hydrogen loading experiments where the goal is to embed as much hydrogen as possible in the cathode. It is gentle to the anode and does not attack metal, but allows for good conductivity through the cell. If your goal is to understand hydrogen embedded into the cupronickel via electrolysis, I think Sodium Carbonate would be an excellent choice for the electrolyte. Chemically Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) Na2[(CO)3] is similar in structure to Sodium Borate (borax) Na2[B4O5(OH)4]·8H2O and both are ionic compounds. Experiments like Rossi's and Calianti's use nano scale cupronickel powders in a hydrogen gas loading experiment. This implies, that nano scale features can bind and hold hydrogen in geometric arrangements that are not typically found in nature. So initially we want something that will etch the surface of the Cupronickel an make it nano porous. Two possible methods can be used here, electro-etching or chemical etching. Chemical etching would be the simplest method for creating the nano scale pore features. If the etching can get the surface from shiny to mat, that should have created enough porosity to effect the possible loading. Rinse and clean the metal well after etching. The process of electro-etching maybe the technique to us her as well. Electro-etching, the cupronickel would be attached to the positive side of the power supply, and etched using. One could use borax as an electrolyte in the beginning, and place the cupronickel on anode (+) side, etch the features, and then after a wash and rinse, use that nickel as the cathode (-) in an the Sodium Carbonate standard electrolysis. Anyway, the idea with sodium carbonate is to really load as much hyrdogen into the metal as possible. Under DC electrolysis, a large portion of the energy will expended in the separation of H2O into H gas and O gas. I think a better approach to a Rossi or Calieanti system would be to use AC electrolysis once a high-level of loading is achieved. So after running the system in DC-mode to load the nano features with H, switching to AC should move the H into an out of the nano features. If there is a tenancy for H to overcome the Coulomb barrier, in the AC environment, the changing polarity might give an extra push. Everyone seems to believe loading is a factor in successful excess heat. Given how large a nickel is, I would not be surprised at the system taking a long amount of time for DC electrolysis gas loading. Then switching to AC to initiate a Rossi, Caliani type H gas motion into and out of the metal nano etched surface structure. So the experiment protocol I would try would look something like this: Step 1) Etch the nickel. Either use a chemical etching or electro-etching or sand blast it. For chemical etching, PCB etching solution may work, just don't over do it. Also clean the nickel afterwards in water, ultra-sonic jewelry cleaner may be a useful step. Step 2) DC Electrolysis of Water and Sodium Carbonate, this is to load the metal. This may need to run several days, the Nickel should be on the negative terminal (cathode (-)). The anode could be graphite. Graphite shouldn't oxidize under the gas bubbling and is neutral to Na+ ions. (Note: an issue is the possible formation NaOH Sodium Hydroxide a strong base). Jack Cole is using thoriated tungsten rods, which is an interesting material. It should be resistant to Oxidation or damage from Base/Acids for the most part. Step 3) Switch to AC for heat. (Or pulsed DC). A high voltage DC pulse might also be interesting (but use caution, X-ray are possible). Step 3.5) This is where it could be fun to experiment, Switch
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Jed, I think that Diamond's idea is old, although I do not know what else recent book you did refer. However, Alain refers to Hunt Lipo rat theory, where rats ate the seeds of the native forests. The theory was explained in their 2011 book, The Statues that Walked: http://www.thestatuesthatwalked.com/ But this is not what caused the collapse of Rapa Nui civilisation, but ultimately it was Jared's own favourite i.e. measles and smallpox (curiously the Finnish word for smallpox is translated as bigpox) did the final devastation of the population. As Hunt Lipo theory is based on widest yet archeological research I did find it sound and believable, and old collapse hypothesis is thoroughly refuted. E.g. if I recall correctly that Jared assumed violence in the islands due to hunger, diminishing resources and over population, but there is no archeological evidence to support overpopulation or violence. Also the moving of statues was not very large feat, because statues did indeed walk to the shores and they were definitely not dragged like Jared assumed (iirc)! There were roads constructed for walking purpose and always when the moving project failed and statue fell, those fallen statues were lying on their belly, if it was downhill and on their back if it was an up hill. Also the centre of gravity was as such that it supported optimally the walking. The larger the statue, the lower the centre of gravity, although sometimes statues were finished when they were at target location, to smoothen the excess belly. I do not think that there was deep religious reasons behind making statues, but they were made just because they could do it and there were plenty of excess food available to do such deeds. However I agree that forests are the key in environmentalism. The destruction of forests was not good thing for the Rapa nui. If we would just get rid of agricultural subsidies and protectionism, this would immediacy free the area sized of Brazil that is currently consumed by agricultural overproduction. Almost 50 % of US corn production goes for bioethanol production and just less than 5 percent is for human consumption. Also as there is no protectionism it would be good idea to buy food from ultra fertile regions such as Sudan and Ethiopia that are currently starving, because westerners do not want to invest for the irrigation systems and buy the cheap food what they could grown there. I would estimate that those two countries alone could import food for one or two billion people globally. And as there is no forests, the food production there would be environmentally sound, unlike in Europe where lust and temperate forests are mostly cleared because of the agriculture. There is also additional benefits that the regrowing of forests that is sized of Brazil would probably soak most of the excess greenhouse gases and store it to living biomass. And most importantly, forests has the key role of controlling and moderating the local climate as they increase greatly the local water cycle and slows down the rate how long it will take that water is flown back to the ocean. Currently observed desertification is not due to climate change, but because e.g. Spain is almost completely cleared from forest. And also some Amazon regions are threatened to collapse, because there is cleared so much of the forests that water cycle is disturbed. ―Jouni On Oct 10, 2012, at 12:31 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: I've heard that the story of overcutting trees causing and ecologic is a legend. Not according to J. Diamond and other recent books. They cut all the trees to erect the statues. When a wooden British sailing ship arrived decades later, they came aboard and they were thrilled to see wood again. They reportedly stroked the wood in tears. It was one of the spooky moments in human history. We will feel the same way if we manage to flood the coasts and destroy North American agriculture with global warming -- as we may well do. We will pay a tremendous price for a trivial benefit. To say a few pennies per kilowatt hour we would destroy our food supplies and turn the whole nation into a stinking desert! - Jed
Re: [Vo]:CR39
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:25 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: That may be true according to conventional wisdom, however consider the following possibility. Severely shrunken Hydrino molecules could easily migrate through the interstitial spaces in solid matter, and then undergo fusion reactions further on. The result might be essentially indistinguishable from neutron/proton knock-on reactions. One more thought -- if this is what is going on, it would suggest that hydrinos are potentially quite dangerous to living organisms anywhere near where they are being produced. Eric
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
Jarold, no, it is not called socialism. See my first post in this threat. Socialism is based on public ownership of means of production AND the price regulation. If income is just redistribute via basic income, it does not have an effect of the ownership of means of production and definitely it does not have an effect for price regulation. On the contrary, because increasing median purchasing power of people will increase the power of free market economy, because free market economy is based on the supply and consumer demand. This is polar opposite to that of socialism and free market economy does work the better the higher is the median purchasing power of the people. Therefore only thing what distinguishes socialism from ricardian capitalism, that in ricardian capitalism Rockefeller owns the means of production and controls the prices, but in socialism state owns the means of production and controls the prices. For individual consumer they both are the same, because democracy is lacking in both systems. And indeed without keynesian redistribution of wealth and antitrust laws, Rockefeller would indeed have the monopoly of production. The new economic system that Jed is referring is called Keynesian redistribution. That was widely practiced in 1960's, that was the golden age of keynesian redistribution. However, I would think that we need to modify keynesian redistribution in various ways. I personally would like to call the new keynesian economy as Star Trek economy, where there is no scarcity of basic needs ― globally! ―Jouni Sent from my iPad On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: This economic system has already been developed. It is called socialism, or what some people would call communism. When there is no more need for human labor, it is obvious that governments are going to have to allocate resources. Capitalism obviously won't work.
Re: [Vo]:CR39
That's the behavior I believe can happen if this collapsed state of matter, call it what you want, can tunnel through collapse/decay other matter. Best some type of magnetic and/or inertial confinement like Miley has contracted with NASA to do. Maybe suspend it in a reactor, feed it hydrogen and keep it happy. On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:25 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: That may be true according to conventional wisdom, however consider the following possibility. Severely shrunken Hydrino molecules could easily migrate through the interstitial spaces in solid matter, and then undergo fusion reactions further on. The result might be essentially indistinguishable from neutron/proton knock-on reactions. One more thought -- if this is what is going on, it would suggest that hydrinos are potentially quite dangerous to living organisms anywhere near where they are being produced. Eric
Re: [Vo]:CR39
In reply to Eric Walker's message of Tue, 9 Oct 2012 20:10:30 -0700: Hi, [snip] On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:25 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: That may be true according to conventional wisdom, however consider the following possibility. Severely shrunken Hydrino molecules could easily migrate through the interstitial spaces in solid matter, and then undergo fusion reactions further on. The result might be essentially indistinguishable from neutron/proton knock-on reactions. One more thought -- if this is what is going on, it would suggest that hydrinos are potentially quite dangerous to living organisms anywhere near where they are being produced. Eric Possibly, though Mills seems ok. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:CR39
In reply to ChemE Stewart's message of Tue, 9 Oct 2012 23:18:58 -0400: Hi, [snip] That's the behavior I believe can happen if this collapsed state of matter, call it what you want, can tunnel through collapse/decay other matter. The Hydrino molecule is extremely stable, to the point of being chemically totally inert. It also won't cause other matter to collapse, however the occasional nuclear reaction is not out of the question. The trick is to give it good nuclear fuel as soon as it is formed, so that it reacts straight away. Best some type of magnetic and/or inertial confinement like Miley has contracted with NASA to do. Maybe suspend it in a reactor, feed it hydrogen and keep it happy. On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 2:25 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: That may be true according to conventional wisdom, however consider the following possibility. Severely shrunken Hydrino molecules could easily migrate through the interstitial spaces in solid matter, and then undergo fusion reactions further on. The result might be essentially indistinguishable from neutron/proton knock-on reactions. One more thought -- if this is what is going on, it would suggest that hydrinos are potentially quite dangerous to living organisms anywhere near where they are being produced. Eric Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Compressed air?
Copied from another list: Guys not sure if its vortex steam reforming or what, may be fake dont know , its patented, please take a look Patent http://www.google.com/patents/US20110048008?printsec=drawingdq=Gabriel+Ohiochoya+Obadanei=-hJxUKieGIj3igKmnoFo#v=onepageqf=false Device http://www.cogarinternationalenergy.com/index.php video http://www.cogarinternationalenergy.com/prototype-demonstration.php The patent describes how its proprietary technology compresses ambient air in several stages to drive micro-turbines. The compressed air passes through a Jet Propulsion Corridor. It intersects with the turbines which are semi-circular bucket shaped with internal and external flanges. The turbines drive shafts attached to the generators that produce the electricity. Exhaust compressed air gets recycled back into the unit through a pressurized air conduit in a continuous feedback loop.Mr. Obadan is described as a scientist, inventor and divinity. On the company website it states that he has broken three major laws of physics.He has created a machine that can run perpetually once primed without any additional external power source….a perpetual motion machine.He has demonstrated that the law of thermodynamics can be broken by showing that less energy can create more sustainable energy, in fact in multiples well beyond the initial energy input.He has broken Isaac Newton's axiom that every action leads to an equal and opposite reaction because his reactor creates more of reaction than the initial action.
Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.comwrote: Perhaps if we force agriculture to skyscrapers and deserts, then there is enough room for humans to live comfortably in bungalows. So we turn the idea of city and country side upside down. That in the future humans will live in countryside, while food is produced in the cities and skyscrapers! This is what I would like to see -- for roads to disappear from cities and be replaced by walkways between buildings that are built downwards for the most part rather than upwards. The tallest buildings would not be taller than three stories in most urban areas. You could get the population density needed for mass transit by building several stories downwards, around open-air gardens at the bottom of a wide column. The buildings would be all but hidden by trellises and greenery. In an economy of prosperity, rather than one of subsistence and want, there would be more than enough work to keep people quite occupied. As people's tastes are refined, they will start taking a liking for rarer cultivars, and they will often choose to maintain their own gardens. In the Bay area there is currently a flourishing of food trucks, where people try the kind of well-prepared food that you would otherwise have to travel some distance to get at a nice restaurant; I see this trend continuing and doubt that robots will ever become better chefs than the best human ones. There is also the problem of governance, which has been mentioned. And there is plenty of scope for a whole industry of hand-made furniture and textiles. Eventually people will see the kitschy mass-produced clothing and furniture of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries as an embarrassing infatuation with the mechanization introduced during the industrial revolution. There will always be a need for gardeners and stone masons. Imagine the beautiful buildings that could replace the visionless industrial architecture that blights many north American cities these days. There will be a need for scientists and journalists and event organizers. There will be a need for people who sit at a terminal, making sure the mining robots are not broken. Eric
