RE: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
This economic system has already been developed. It is called socialism, or what some people would call communism. When there is no more need for human labor, it is obvious that governments are going to have to allocate resources. Capitalism obviously won't work. Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:36:21 -0400 From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: It's my suspicion that with ensuing advancements of technology, automation and robotics, traditional capitalism as it is currently practiced will have to evolve... Capitalism, communism, Feudalism, mercantalism and every other economic system ever invented can be defined as: A system to allocate human labor, goods and services. Some of these systems have been efficient; others were inefficient. Some were just; others were unjust, and still others tyrannical. No economic system could exist until people achieved some level of agriculture and the ability to gather in villages and later towns and cities. Human labor is now losing value. Robots and intelligent computers are replacing human workers in many fields, including ones that people previously thought could never be done by machines. Within 20 to 100 years, human labor will be worthless. In the distant future, machines will supply all of the food we want. They will capable of supplying 10 times the food we want, or a thousand times. They will be capable of manufacturing a car for every driver, or 100,000 cars for every driver, or enough cars to cover the whole surface of Mars with automobiles in piles 100 cars high. Material scarcity and human labor allocation will become distant memories, the way waterborne infectious disease has in first world countries. The concept of economic justice will become meaningless. The distinction between capitalism and communism will be meaningless, like the difference between Protestants and Catholics is to an atheist. As this transition occurs, all economic systems will gradually collapse. This is already happening. When labor is worth nothing, you cannot predicate your economic system on it. With the Internet we have seen the cost of transferring information drop so close to zero it no longer matters. No one bothers to account for it. As that happened, people who made a living selling information that was difficult to access went out of business. It become like selling water by the river, as the Zen proverb has it. Some new economic system must emerge. It will not be capitalism or communism. No human institution lasts forever; when we have no need for these things, they will vanish as surely as Feudalism did, or slavery did in the first world. I am confident that something new will emerge. If we can devise these wonderful machines capable of fulfilling all of our material needs and desires, surely we can also devise some practical means to allocate the output of the machines so that everyone can have whatever they need, if not everything they desire. As Romney put it, even today, people feel they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing. Naturally, they feel that way! Since we can have these things in abundance in the first world, people have every right to feel that way. In the future, everyone living in every part of the solar system will take it for granted that they have a birthright to healthcare, food, housing, education, energy, internet access and much else. These things will cost nothing. Virtually nothing; the per capita cost to supply food, health care and so on will be roughly what it costs us today to supply a house with clean, potable water in a first-world household. That's $335 per year average in the U.S. Keeping track of such trivial expenses would be a waste of time. Collecting taxes to pay for them would be a waste of time. In any case, you can't collect taxes when most people do not bother to work, or have not need to work. Cold fusion will play a large roll in making this transition possible. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years
It's a lot better than trying to reform capitalism. Also, you can have robots running the government and allocating resources, so there would be no bureaucracy. Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:18:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years From: jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Socialism has always failed because it merely replaces private sector rent-seeking with public sector rent-seeking. You have to disintermediate the public sector bureaucracy with a citizen's dividend. On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: This economic system has already been developed. It is called socialism, or what some people would call communism. When there is no more need for human labor, it is obvious that governments are going to have to allocate resources. Capitalism obviously won't work. Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:36:21 -0400 From: jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: It's my suspicion that with ensuing advancements of technology, automation and robotics, traditional capitalism as it is currently practiced will have to evolve... Capitalism, communism, Feudalism, mercantalism and every other economic system ever invented can be defined as: A system to allocate human labor, goods and services. Some of these systems have been efficient; others were inefficient. Some were just; others were unjust, and still others tyrannical. No economic system could exist until people achieved some level of agriculture and the ability to gather in villages and later towns and cities. Human labor is now losing value. Robots and intelligent computers are replacing human workers in many fields, including ones that people previously thought could never be done by machines. Within 20 to 100 years, human labor will be worthless. In the distant future, machines will supply all of the food we want. They will capable of supplying 10 times the food we want, or a thousand times. They will be capable of manufacturing a car for every driver, or 100,000 cars for every driver, or enough cars to cover the whole surface of Mars with automobiles in piles 100 cars high. Material scarcity and human labor allocation will become distant memories, the way waterborne infectious disease has in first world countries. The concept of economic justice will become meaningless. The distinction between capitalism and communism will be meaningless, like the difference between Protestants and Catholics is to an atheist. As this transition occurs, all economic systems will gradually collapse. This is already happening. When labor is worth nothing, you cannot predicate your economic system on it. With the Internet we have seen the cost of transferring information drop so close to zero it no longer matters. No one bothers to account for it. As that happened, people who made a living selling information that was difficult to access went out of business. It become like selling water by the river, as the Zen proverb has it. Some new economic system must emerge. It will not be capitalism or communism. No human institution lasts forever; when we have no need for these things, they will vanish as surely as Feudalism did, or slavery did in the first world. I am confident that something new will emerge. If we can devise these wonderful machines capable of fulfilling all of our material needs and desires, surely we can also devise some practical means to allocate the output of the machines so that everyone can have whatever they need, if not everything they desire. As Romney put it, even today, people feel they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing. Naturally, they feel that way! Since we can have these things in abundance in the first world, people have every right to feel that way. In the future, everyone living in every part of the solar system will take it for granted that they have a birthright to healthcare, food, housing, education, energy, internet access and much else. These things will cost nothing. Virtually nothing; the per capita cost to supply food, health care and so on will be roughly what it costs us today to supply a house with clean, potable water in a first-world household. That's $335 per year average in the U.S. Keeping track of such trivial expenses would be a waste of time. Collecting taxes to pay for them would be a waste of time. In any case, you can't collect taxes when most people do not bother to work, or have not need to work. Cold fusion will play a large roll in making this transition possible. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Celani ICCF17 Presentation
Will cold fusion finally go mainstream after this ICCF-17? Celani has done independent testing, right? I'm not very familiar with how science becomes accepted mainstream, but I do not understand why it is taking so long. From: mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Celani ICCF17 Presentation Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 15:31:50 +1000 In reply to mix...@bigpond.com's message of Wed, 15 Aug 2012 14:14:32 +1000: Hi, [snip] Wire diameter 0.2mm, 1000mm long gives 0.031cm³, or about 500W/cm³, you I think that should be 0.31 cc, making it about 45 W/cc. I stuffed this up. :( It is indeed 0.031 cc. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:In the foodsteps of Jules Verne
I think rail assisted launch is a lot more realistic right now than a space elevator. However, an 80 mile $60 billion tube is too big of a project at this point. A much more feasible approach would be to find a mountain over a mile high with the right angle and build it so the g forces are reasonable. It would also be better to use more proven technologies like a rocket sled or pneumatic system rather than maglev to start off with. You can eliminate the first stage of the rocket if you can get it to about mach 1. About 1/3 of fuel on a rocket is used just to get to mach 1. The goals and risk of this plan are way too high right now. It makes more sense to start small to test the feasibility, then we can start on a megaproject for space flight. On Apr 10, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: How about $40/kg cargo into LEO? This tech could have vastly larger capasity and speed than with Space Elevator. And it is a little bit cheaper, well in reach of current engineering and does not require exotic nanomaterials that do not exist in required scale nowhere near in the future if never. Holiday in the stars: Space train could send four million people a year into orbit by 2032 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2113668/Space-holidays-Space-train-send-million-people-year-orbit-2032.html —Jouni
Re: [Vo]:The Fukushima disaster -- 34 meter tsunamis?
You really think people know what they want? The vast majority of people don't think cold fusion is possible, and an even larger amount don't care and focus on issues that don't matter. Most people reject cold fusion, so we should invest no money into it because it would be a waste of money? A democracy is a horrible form of government. Dictatorships are much better, and you don't have people making decisions based on irrational fear and emotions. Offshore wind costs at least twice as much as onshore, and advances in technology like solar is relying on could just as easily help nuclear. As the best spots for wind are taken up, the price will go up again. On Apr 3, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: I think you are suffering from the same lack of desire to educate yourself about nuclear power when you categorically reject nuclear power based on an incomplete education. I am not rejecting it so much as reporting that the Japanese public, mass media, and people living near reactors have rejected it. The people living in towns near nuclear reactors insist that they remain shut down. The central government must bow to their wishes. The Japanese are smart people; they should not reject nuclear power based on the past mistakes and criminally deficient nuclear engineering of their American idols. 1. Perhaps they should not reject it but they have. 2. Americans are not their idols. 3. The problem in this case was Japanese site engineering (the placement of the diesel engine fuel tanks), not the American reactor. As I pointed out several times, any commercially available reactor would have failed under these circumstances. Like China they should take their on fate in their own hands; they can devote some money and talent to direct their nuclear industry in the proper direction. I think it would be more cost-effective to devote money and talent to conventional alternative energy. I'm sure the Japanese could build offshore wind turbines and rooftop solar at a far lower cost than nuclear energy. I would not have said that before the Fukushima disaster revealed the true dollar cost of nuclear energy. The average wind turbine a few years ago cost ~$2 million per MW of nameplate capacity. That's $2000/kw, but actual capacity is about one third of the nameplate so it $6000/kw. That is expensive, although it is cheaper than a nuclear power plant starting cost per kilowatt. Anyway, for the cost of this accident, ~$650 billion, you could buy about ~108 GW of wind generating capacity, which is about half of Japan's installed generator capacity, and far more than their nuclear capacity. Needless to say, the cost of wind power is falling rapidly, and long before you build 108 GW the cost would fall by a large margin. Even if it turns out the accident cost only half as much as people now estimate, you could easily replace all of Japan's nuclear power with offshore wind for the cost of this one accident. As I said to three more accident like this would go a long way to bankrupting the nation. Nuclear power is an economic sword of Damocles. I do not think anyone in his right might would build more fission reactors now that we have seen what they can do, and how impossible it is to clean up. Any Japanese politician who recommended more reactors would be voted out of office. That is not a problem in China where they do not have democracy or elections and the government can get away with anything it wants. The recent high speed train accident in turn illustrated this. The literally buried the evidence on site. They buried the smashed railcars in the ground. The public made a huge commotion so the government dug them up, moved them to a local station and covered them up again with tarps this time. Given their track record on safety, pollution and other issues I do not think you should hold the Chinese as a shining example to the world. The government is, after all, a ruthless dictatorship. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The Fukushima disaster
Where do you keep getting this $600 billion dollar number? Most of the sources I've seen say it's around $50 billion. And Tepco is the 4th largest electric utility in the world, not the 1st. Adding Chernobyl to nuclear's safety record is unfair. Chernobyl just showed what can happen to a nuclear reactor if you ignore all safety issues. The Soviet Union didn't really care much about safety. Current nuclear reactors are much safer than Fukishima and Chernobyl reactors. Most future nuclear reactors can be designed to use passive safety which makes it an order of magnitude safer still. I don't care about global warming. Nuclear can be far safer, cheaper, and cleaner than any other power source. Do you know how much subsidies wind and solar receive? The subsidies are much larger/kwh than other power sources. Solar costs about a $1/kwh without subsidies. Renewable energy subsidies are paid for by coal, so the more subsidies you have, the more coal you are burning. Research 4th generation nuclear concepts, more specifically the LFTR, and you will see that nuclear can be very safe and economical at the same time. On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: No one disputes that coal fired plants kill far more people than nuclear power, even taking into account casualties from uranium mining pollution. Anyone who believes that global warming is real will certainly agree that nuclear power is safer even factoring the Chernobyl and Fukushima accidents. I think alternative energy such as wind and solar would be more cost-effective and much safer. Unfortunately Japan does not have significant wind resources, and not much potential solar power either. Putting aside the long term perspective, nuclear power is uniquely disastrous from an economic and business point of view. No other source of energy could conceivably cause so much damage in a single accident, or cost even a small fraction as much money. As I said, this accident bankrupted the world's largest power company and effectively destroyed the houses, towns, bridges and livelihood of 90,000 to 150,000 people in 5,000 square miles of land. (It turns out 90,000 people were ordered out by the government but 60,000 others left on their own after they and their local governments detected radiation far above natural background. TEPCO and the government say they will not pay compensation to these 60,000 people, even though no one disputes their land now has lethal levels of radioactivity.) If TEPCO had known this might happen I seriously doubt they would've built any nuclear power reactors. No corporate executive would risk the destruction of the entire company in a single accident. It reminds me of Churchill's description of World War I Adm. Jellicoe as the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon. People say that no one was killed. I expect many of the young workers will prematurely die of cancer in the next 20 or 30 years. But assuming for the sake of argument that no one was killed the situation is still unprecedented. Consider this: The U.S. commercial airline fleet consists of 7185 airplanes. That includes 3,739 mainline passenger aircraft (over 90 seats) . . . 879 mainline cargo aircraft (including those operated by FedEx and UPS) and 2,567 regional aircraft jets/turboprops. I believe the average replacement cost of the big mainline ones is around $150 million per aircraft. http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engines-components/news/faa-us-commercial-aircraft-fleet-shrank-2011-0312 http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/ Okay imagine that in the middle of one night, when these airplanes are parked with no one aboard, all 4,615 of the big passenger and freight airplanes suffer fuel leaks and are destroyed by fire. No one is hurt, but the entire fleet is destroyed. The replacement cost of the equipment would be ~$692 billion, which is roughly how much the Fukushima disaster will cost. Do you think that Boeing, Airbus or any airline would survive this? Do you think any insurance company would? I don't. As it happens, this incident did not destroy the Japanese insurance industry. That is because no nuclear power plant in the world is covered by private insurance. When nuclear power was invented, the insurance companies took a close look and decided it was too risky and they would never cover it. From the very beginning of nuclear power this risk has been assumed by national governments only. So the Japanese government and TEPCO customers are on the hook for this. Obviously, no power company can pay for an accident that costs ten times their entire annual revenue! TEPCO's earnings are here: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/corpinfo/ir/tool/annual/pdf/2011/ar201101-e.pdf 5065 billion yen = $62 billion Jones Beene and others have correctly pointed out that coal-fired plants generally spew far more
Re: [Vo]:The Fukushima disaster
Greenpeace is not a credible source. On Apr 2, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: I wrote: The replacement cost of the equipment would be ~$692 billion, which is roughly how much the Fukushima disaster will cost. As Greenpeace pointed out, by coincidence this is roughly the cost of the 2008 TARP bailout. Note however, that nearly all of the TARP money was returned the U.S. government by the corporations and banks. Most of them paid high interest rates on the loans, so they were anxious to return the money. I think most of the money came back within two years. As of last year all but $19 billion of the TARP money was returned to Uncle Sam. The remaining $19 billion will probably not be returned because the companies went bankrupt. That's not good, but you cannot compare it to a $650 billion dead loss. That is, to money spent cleaning up tens of millions of tons of contaminated soil, building a giant sarcophagus for a nuclear power plant, and compensating people for the loss of their houses and livelihoods. Such activities contribute nothing to long-term prosperity or happiness. It is like hiring hundreds of thousands of people to spend 20 years digging holes in the ground every morning, and filling them in every afternoon for no purpose. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The Fukushima disaster
If we decide to get rid of nuclear and coal in favor of wind and solar, a millions of people will die of starvation. Our GDP would decrease by half. I'd rather take a risk that a nuclear reactor explodes or a coal mine collapses than the alternative. On Apr 2, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Putting aside the long term perspective, .. . You can’t dismiss the long term perspective. No, you can't, but I just did. My sentence begins putting aside the long term perspective meaning let's not talk about the future for a moment here; let's look only at the present. What happens in the future is important. Yes, it is. What happens in the present is also important. An accident that bankrupts the biggest power company on earth and costs the Japanese taxpayers several hundred billion dollars is important. Your value system is completely opposite to what it should be on this issue; let me explain. You don't need to. I made it quite clear that I agree that coal is a bigger threat in the long term. However, nuclear power is a gigantic economic threat in the short term. If 3 more Japanese reactors were to go out of control and explode, it would paralyze the entire economy, which is of the third largest in the world. It would be roughly the equivalent of the U.S. fighting the Iraq war again, 5 times in a row. Coal threatens global warming which in the worst scenario will destroy entire nations and kill millions of species and individual people. That's horrible. But a disaster that would impoverish an entire nation -- 4 reactors exploding -- is also horrible, albeit in a different way. Neither risk is acceptable. Both coal and nuclear have to go. We need something better. I hope that cold fusion can overcome the academic politics and replace them both, but if that is not to be, I am sure that solar and various other methods can replace them. This will be more expensive than coal per kilowatt hour (ignoring future costs). It will be far cheaper than nuclear however, now that we have seen the true dollar cost of nuclear power. After Fukushima it became the most expensive method of generating electricity in history. I believe it wiped out all of the profits ever made by TEPCO. Before Fukushima I supported nuclear power. I knew that nuclear accidents have occurred and that they might be severe. However, I never imagined that a reactor manufactured in the US and installed in Japan could malfunction to this extent and cost this much money. If you asked me before 2011 I would have said: that that might happen in theory but in actual practice we should not worry about such extreme scenarios. Before 9/11 I would have dismissed the likelihood of fanatics crashing commercial airliners into buildings. Life is full of surprises. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The Fukushima disaster
Nuclear is just as safe, if not more, than both of them. On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:27 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Francis_Dam -- 1929 ? ... the current death toll is estimated to be more than 600 victims . . . A concrete dam failure of this nature is extremely unlikely today. I believe dams are the safest and cheapest way to generate electricity. Wind turbines are almost as safe. (Safety is measured in accidents per kilowatt-hour.) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The Fukushima disaster
Other renewable energy sources will take trillions out of just the U.S. economy every year because they cost about twice as much as other energy sources. And your numbers for cost are way too high. It creates jobs by rebuilding lost homes, etc., thus stimulating the economy according to a lot of people. Like I said, these reactors were built in the 60's or 70's and there are safer reactors today. I suggest you look up liquid fluoride thorium reactors that are an order of magnitude safer than today's nuclear and has a projected cost lower than coal. On Mar 31, 2012, at 10:19 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: Nuclear is just as safe, if not more, than both of them. Evidently not. The Fukushima accident proved it is not safe. Just because it did not kill people right away that does not make it safe. It will likely kill many workers in the years to come. It caused tremendous havoc and cost ~$600 billion. Taking that much money out of the economy and throwing it down a black hole will surely cost many lives. A source of energy that can bankrupt the largest power company in the world in one day is not safe. No sane business executive would select it. If anyone had known this might happen, no country would have built nuclear reactors. People do not seem to grasp the magnitude of this event. This is $600 billion in damage and 90,000 people's lives and livelihoods destroyed. No industrial accident in history was even remotely as destructive, except Chernoblyl, of course. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Brillouin Energy making waves
The world can't run on oil forever, and hopefully it is not going to much longer. Companies like Exxon are going to have to adapt or die. Would you rather the world run on obsolete technologies like sailing ships and steam locomotives just so we can have jobs or a company doesn't go under? Should we start farming with horse drawn plows so we can create more jobs? Are you saying that oil companies would rather try to hide cold fusion than adapt to it? Did they pay off MIT and other mainstream scientists to cover up cold fusion? On Mar 30, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: Things change. They're [oil companies] going to have to adapt, and if they do, they can come out ahead. There is not much profit to be made for cold fusion fuel, but they can produce the reactors instead. Oil companies have no expertise in manufacturing. Whereas there are thousands of established companies with experience in industrial manufacturing. Suggesting that oil companies should do this is a like suggesting they go into the fast food business, real estate, or housing construction. Or that McDonald's should try digging oil wells. Maybe they can take a large part of the transportation sector with cold fusion as the power source. Maybe they can, but the transportation sector already has dozens of large companies that can do this far better than an oil company could. IBM could probably manufacture an automobile, but you can be sure that Ford or Toyota can do a better job. Also, you are overlooking the fact that this will be a game of musical chairs. 99.9% of the dollar value of the energy sector will vanish in a generation. Oil companies, electric power companies and many others will lose all of their business, the way railroads lost their passenger traffic to automobiles and then airplanes. They will all be casting about desperately for some other line of work, and for some place to put their human and financial capital. Jobs for people who are good at drilling deep holes in the ground or transporting millions of tons of liquid in supertankers or pipes will have a large crowd of unemployed people and corporations vying for the contract. Perhaps there will be new uses for holes drilled in the ground, or new reasons to move megatons of toxic liquids around. I doubt it, but there might be. (Any number of companies can move water around, so the desalination business will be swamped.) In my book, I suggested that Exxon may be reborn as a company that terraforms Mars. It has already inadvertently terraformed the Earth, and not in a good way. Yes, it will take a lot of restructuring, but if they are smart about it, they will prosper more than they ever have. I doubt they will. Looking at the history of commerce, in nearly every case when a technology become obsolete, the leading corporations in that technology did not adapt. They did not prosper. They went out of business. This was true even when they might have easily used the new technology. For example, companies that constructed sailing ships began using steel and other modern materials as the 19th century progressed, and they had a great deal of expertise in marine technology. They might have easily adapted to making steamships. But none of them did. They all went bankrupt. In another example, the Baldwin Locomotive Company and other who manufactured steam locomotives might have easily transitioned to Diesel locomotives. Much of their expertise in things like wheels, lubrication, brakes, controls and so on was directly applicable. But none of them did, as far as I know. For other examples, see the various books and studies by Christensen (Harvard Bus. School) Exxon will be in a much worse position to transition than Baldwin was, since they have absolutely no experience doing anything similar to manufacturing reactors. The Singer Sewing machine company tried to get into the computer business in the 1970s. They, at least, had experience with precision manufacturing. They failed. Other companies that failed in the computer business in the 1960s and 70s include GE, RCA and Xerox. They had deep expertise in electronics, but they could not compete with IBM and the others already established. See: R. L. Glass, Computing Catastrophes (1983). - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Brillouin Energy making waves
The individuals employed there will be fine. Their energy expenses will be cut by about 10 x. Every item they buy will cost about a 1/4 of what it does now. The way we should reduce unemployment if rossi or defkalion really do have something is to shorten the work week. There is no reason people have to be working 40 hours a week in a society with nearly free energy and seemingly endless resources. On Mar 30, 2012, at 3:22 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: The world can't run on oil forever, and hopefully it is not going to much longer. Companies like Exxon are going to have to adapt or die. Of course. And based on the history of business, I predict they will die. Would you rather the world run on obsolete technologies like sailing ships and steam locomotives just so we can have jobs or a company doesn't go under? Of course not. I did not say that. No one said that. Please pay a little closer attention to what is presented here, and do not argue against points that no one makes (a straw man logical fallacy). I myself could not care less whether Exxon survives. I care only about the individuals employed there. Not the company, and not the stockholders. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Are oil companies suppressing cold fusion? Probably not, but I am sure they will.
I am not a republican, and I think global warming is a sham. According to your theories, couldn't global warming just be a ploy to get more money out of consumers? The climate always changes. Even in a worst case scenario predicted by some scientists, it will not end in the apocalypse like some idiots believe. The Earth probably is warming, but there has also been a cold period for the past couple of decades or centuries so it could just as easily be natural rather than manmade. Besides, people only focus on the negatives of global warming when there are positives. Warmer periods in history have usually led to great growth in human society, as well as other forms of life. Big fancy windmills, along with solar panels, etc. are never going to deliver a large portion of our energy needs cheaply. On Mar 30, 2012, at 7:44 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com wrote: There is one thing good to remember that we are not living nowhere near laissez-faire capitalism. If any company would be exposed in any attempt to hinder the development of viable cold fusion technology, it would considered the worst economic crime in the history. And it would lead into huge monetary penalties and compensations. Never! Not in the U.S. Corporations do this sort of thing all the time. There are no laws against bad mouthing the competition, or tell the public or the Congress that your competition's product is inferior. As I said, the coal industry has a vigorous PR program to tell the public that wind turbines do not work, they are a waste of money, they kill birds, and they should be made illegal. The coal and oil industry spend millions telling people that global warming does not exist or that it is not caused by CO2. Every Republican member of Congress and candidate for president agrees with them. It is difficult for people in other countries to realize how strong the anti-science, anti-intellectual trend is in the U.S. We have never been an intellectual country. We have never had much respect for scholars or scientists, or eggheads as they used to be called. Lately, however, the antipathy has risen to heights not seen since the 1950s, just before the Sputnik scare. Eventually, this will die down, but a present any Republican who admitted that global warming might be real, or even that the world is older than 6,000 years old and Darwin might be right, will be booted out of office. 68% of Republican voters believe in creationism, along with 40% of the U.S. public. In his book, Obama said clearly that he believes in evolution, but I have never heard him say that in public, and I would advise him not to. Why alienate 40% of the voters? I am sure the oil companies will tell the public and Congress that cold fusion is nuclear, it is probably dangerous, it produces neutrons, it is unproven, it can never be scaled up, and so on. That is what the skeptics have been saying all along: even if it is true it will never work. I expect that every member of the Republican party will agree with them, just as they agree about global warming, and just as they all agreed that BP was victimized by the Obama administration when it paid a huge fine after the spill. Those people are predictably anti-science and in favor of established industry. The fight will probably fall along party lines in the U.S. E.g. it would be considered as stock exchange rate manipulation, that is already one of the most severely punished crimes. This is definitely not stock market manipulation. Especially if it done publicly with advertisements on TV and contributions to members of Congress (bribery) -- as I am sure it will be. Also you cannot make something a crime after the fact. In the U.S. that violates the Constitution. There is no law against lying about cold fusion, or any other physics or chemistry. People do it all the time, in every major newspaper! Also any such law would violate freedom of the press. In any case, no tobacco executive was ever convicted of a crime; no executive was convicted in the Dalkon Shield scandal which rendered thousands of women infertile or in pain; and no one from Wall Street went to jail after the 2008 crash. You can steal, rape and murder all you like in the U.S. as long as you are working for a corporation. As one judge said to the Dalkon executives, if a street gang had gone around doing this to thousands of women, they would be in prison for the rest of their lives, but we have to let you off. The company did have to pay into a trust fund for victims. This kind of suppression would also be impossible to keep inside a company . . . I am sure they will make it as public as they can. Companies do not hide their attacks on global warming. The coal companies kill 20,000 people a year from particulate pollution. They do not hide that fact. They practically brag about
Re: [Vo]:Are oil companies suppressing cold fusion? Probably not, but I am sure they will.
Fukishima disaster? How many people died in this disaster? 3 so far, 0 from radiation.How much was the damage to property? How many people died when a renewable energy dam broke? About 1,000 and probably about the same economic damage with the homes washed away. There were also fires at oil refineries that killed more people than the nuclear plants. Also, the nuclear plants were built in the 1960's. We have much safer nuclear plants we can build now, and the antinukes are actually promoting the use of unsafe nuclear reactors compared to newer ones. On Mar 30, 2012, at 10:43 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: I wrote: If you were to change the laws in the US, and you offered a $10 bounty for the heads of women and children, I am certain you would find hundreds of thousands of people who would gleefully go around chasing down, shooting and decapitating innocent people and bayoneting small children. . . . Believe me, we could end doing that in 10 years. If you doubt that you have learned nothing from the 20th century. Or the 19th century. You may think that sounds like a dystopian fantasy that could never happen in the U.S. In fact, 40 years before the Japanese army went on a rampage and killed 23 million Chinese people, the U.S. army and many ranchers still had a policy of killing off native Americans for a bounty, including women and children. They did not decapitate them; they scalped them. As Col. Chivington put it: Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice. See also the Atlanta race riots in 1906 and the book The Warmth of Other Suns. It is a huge mistake to think that we can never go backwards, and we can never revert to the barbaric standards of the past. The Germans, Russians and Japanese did in the 20th century. Okay, it is not likely that the U.S. a generation now will be in some lurid science fiction scenario, like the movie The Hunger Games or a world in which it is again okay to kill off Native Americans or black people. On the other hand, we have just seen the most important scientific discovery in history ruthlessly suppressed for 23 years because of petty academic politics and greed. Did anyone think that could happen here? What else might have been going on? Did anyone imagine how much money Wall Street was stealing and squandering before the 2008 crash? Read about the problems BP oil installations had, culminating in the Gulf accident. Look at the Fukushima disaster. Many terrible things have happened, and many more could happen, because of greed, stupidity, hate and barbarism. My point is not that we should fear what might happen, or give up hope. Never! The point is, don't be sanguine. Never assume you have nothing to worry about. Be prepared! I expect there will be an orchestrated barrage of opposition against cold fusion, far greater than anything we have witnessed in the last 23 years, backed by countless millions of dollars. So far we have been fighting off washed-up academic hacks such as Huizenga and nitwits such as The Amazing Randi. These people have little power and no money. They are stupid. Soon we will be fighting every conservative politician in Washington and many liberals as well, because they are equal-opportunity shills for big oil. They will denounce cold fusion in return for campaign contributions. They will keep doing that until they sense the public is on our side. I anticipate the biggest political battle in the history of technology. . . . Okay, maybe that will not come to pass. Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised. But we should be prepared for the worst. We should think about how we will deal with it, and how we can win. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Brillouin Energy making waves
Things change. They're going to have to adapt, and if they do, they can come out ahead. There is not much profit to be made for cold fusion fuel, but they can produce the reactors instead. Maybe they can take a large part of the transportation sector with cold fusion as the power source. Yes, it will take a lot of restructuring, but if they are smart about it, they will prosper more than they ever have. On Mar 29, 2012, at 7:00 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: When Rossi bailed from all agreements to allow more independent replication, that's when the alarms got really loud.) I think you exaggerate. I am not alarmed. I don't think so. If I were CEO of a fossil fuel company, I'd want to get my hands on LENR ASAP. Not to suppress it, but to make it the future of my business, the energy business. I'd want to save the oil for chemistry. Plastics, etc. I disagree. Cold fusion can only reduce total revenue from energy by a factor of a thousand or more. What you are saying is somewhat like suggesting that when Craigslist appeared, daily newspapers all over the county should have banded together and bought into it, because this was the future of classified advertising. The problem is, the total revenue from Craigslist is far smaller than the revenue from classified advertising used to be. There would not be enough revenue to go around. No matter who owns Craigslist, it can only lead to the bankruptcy of local newspapers, printed or electronic. Exxon Mobil earned $125 billion last year. Th entire market for cold fusion fuel, worldwide, assuming it calls for heavy water, would be a few million dollars a year. If Exxon Mobil got patents for cold fusion they might make a lot of money, but nowhere near $125 billion. Plus they have 83,000 e employees who would nearly all be redundant. Those people have no skills relevant to cold fusion. They can contribute nothing to the development of it. They have no more expertise than, say, the food scientists at McDonald's. The fact that oil is used for energy and so is cold fusion is irrelevant. (Actually, food scientists who know about hydrogenation catalysts for cooking oil are more likely to contribute to the development of cold fusion than geologists or combustion experts.) Furthermore, the oil used in plastics and other feedstock is only about 10% of the total. So the oil company revenue would collapse by 90%. No company canurvive that without drastic restructuring and downsizing. In any case, cold fusion will soon make it cheaper to synthesize hydrocarbons on site from hydrogen and carbon (CO2 or garbage), which will eliminate the need for oil as feedstocsk, drastically reduce the cost of plastic, improve safety, and eliminate the need to transport oil. So there will be no future in oil. Not for any purpose. It will be as useless as slide rules in a world with electronic calculators and computers. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:the desktop supernova
This is a private message. Are you the same Axil on other energy websites like focus fusion and thorium reactors? On Mar 28, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Axil Axil wrote: His *technique* is one that will produce, if it works, extremely high temperatures through bubble collapse. Absolutely, this is not cold fusion. That, however, would not be hot enough (I assume) to reach to supernova temperatures. To take the extremely high temperatures of bubble fusion and then say that because it couldn't produce supernova temperatures, it must be cold fusion is ... a reason why I don't write here much any more. I really don’t want to discourage you from posting here. Your posts here are of great value. I feel your 2010 post on LeClair was your best work. Please continue your great work here. Please check my logic… Let’s first define some terms. A fission bomb is the trigger of a fusion bomb. When the fission bomb is detonated, gamma and X-rays emitted first symmetrically compress the fusion fuel, and then heat it to thermonuclear temperatures. The ensuing fusion reaction of light elements creates enormous numbers of high-speed neutrons, which can then induce fission in materials not normally prone to it, such as depleted uranium. Each of these components is known as a stage, with the fission bomb as the primary or “trigger” and the fusion capsule as the secondary. Hot Fusion of a zoo of heavy elements has never happened on earth. But if it did, large numbers of high speed neutrons would be created. There is no evidence of intense production of high speed neutrons in the LeClair incident. The proof is that there was no detection of residual radioactive isotopes by the hasmat crew that arrive just after the experiment to check the lab. Hot fusion produces neutrons with few exceptions. Since no evidence of their large scale production was detected, by necessity no hot fusion occurred. Cold fusion never produces neutrons because it is proton fusion. This type of fusion will produce only trace amounts of neutrons but they are very low energy and few in number. If large scale transmutation occurred, then cold fusion can be the only possible explanation consistent with the evidence. Furthermore, Cold fusion cannot be configured to produce a compressive field of gamma and x-rays required for a nuclear trigger. Regards: axil On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: At 01:34 PM 3/28/2012, Guenter Wildgruber wrote: On the other hand we are confronted with the situation that anybody, who thinks LENR could be real, is easily located in the mental asylum. Did you read that review I cited? Storms, Status of cold fusion (2010). I assure you that Dr. Storms is not in the mental asylum, nor are the reviewers for Naturwissenschaften, which is the flagship multidisciplinary journal of Springer-Verlag, one of the largest scientific publishers in the world. Mainstream. Not a fringe journal. So which criteria do we have to decide? Articles authorized and put into 'truth-status' by Peer-reviewed journals? Yes. (But truth-status doesn't exist.) To do more than that requires a deep understanding of the field. The reputation of cold fusion is that it could not be replicated. That's utterly inconsistent with what has been published in the peer-reviewed mainstream press, not to mention thousands of conference papers (which, individually, aren't particularly reliable, quality varies greatly, but much sound work has expeditiously been published this way; and you can tell, to some degree by what is later cited in peer-reviewed sources). Experiments? Which maybe faulty. Conducted by idiots with two left hands. Got any in mind? The faulty experiment is one that was not completely reported. Experiments often leave much to be desired, requiring more work. Others criticism them because they didn't do this or that, but often they are simply doing what they can. In hindsight, there is almost always something left out. Corporate and other scammers, who make a cheap profit on -ahem- con-fusion? Not common. Rossi is a possibility. Defkalion, less likely but still quite possible. Commercial interests aren't scientists, though they might employ some. We have no science on Rossi, nothing reported according to the protocols of science. Rossi himself dismissed the very concept of a control experiment. Why should he run a control: he knows, he thinks, what he will see with a control: nothing. But anyone who knows science knows the importance of controls. Rossi dumps X energy into his system. How much steam can you make with X energy? Some, it appears. How much steadm was actually generated? Well, not exactly measured, because and on and on. Posters on an imaginary stage? Everything is possible and has to be weighed by common sense, which seems to
[Vo]:George Miley
Is there anything new on George Miley's conference that was supposed to be today?
Re: [Vo]:March 22, 23
Yes we do need to do exhaustive testing anyway. However, should we have waited for the last 200 years before we started selling woodstoves since they still had room for improvement? 1st generation cold fusion is still probably a lot cheaper, cleaner, and safer than any other energy source, so even if 1st generation cold fusion is worthless in 5 years due to improvements, it would still make more sense economically to sell 1st generation anyway. We have become a society full of pansies. There are millions of people dying every day from hunger. There are millions of people in desperate poverty. I don't think they care if it is 100% safe or not if it can provide them with cheap energy. I do agree that this needs a full scale approach as soon as possible, and I completely disagree with Rossi's and Defkalion's approach. But, sometimes a little inefficiency is good. If cold fusion is shown to work in the mainsteam, there is no question there will be virtually unlimited resources poured into it. On Mar 17, 2012, at 9:04 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: I agree that it needs to be relatively safe if you are going to sell it, but you don't need a theory to prove it is safe. I expect a theory would improve both safety and performance, and help lower costs. If he really has a device that can produce power at commercial levels, I don't want to see time wasted on explaining the theory of how the reaction works before he can sell it. The time would not be wasted. We need to exhaustive testing anyway. The efforts should be made by thousands of people in parallel so that they do not take much time. This will speed up the introduction of the technology in a wide range of applications. In the end, it is faster and cheaper to do intense RD first, rather than after you introduce the product. Just as some others have said, we used fire for thousands of years before understanding how it worked. That is an interesting comparison. Let's look a little closer. In the last 30 years, woodstoves have improved in safety, efficiency and pollution control. They were invented by Franklin, but they are still being improved. Even though fire is our oldest technology, every form of combustion technology is still being improved, at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, perhaps billions. Every dollar is well spent, since the improvements save fuel and improve safety. Gas-fired house furnaces are much safer, quieter and better than they were in the 1980s. Some do not even need a chimney; you can exhaust the gas around 10 feet off the ground safely, since it has no CO in it. Internal combustion engines are the most widely used technology on earth, but they are still being improved. These improvement could not be made without deep knowledge of combustion, chemistry, materials and related subjects. In the past, people put up with unsafe products to an extent we would find unthinkable today. Until the 1870s, steam engine boilers often exploded. This was easily prevented. The ASME and the Congress put in place regulations and inspections, and the accident rate fell overnight. Up until the 1960s, automobiles had dozens of egregious safety problems. Many were fixed at no cost, or in ways that actually saved money in construction and materials. For example the 1950s style fins and other protrusions were eliminated. Those fins used to gore people in accidents. They served no purpose other than decoration. Dashboards and steering wheels were made of hard material. Padding them cost nothing. Seat belts were installed. They are by far the most effective way of reducing injury and death in accidents. From the 1920s until around 1970, cars killed roughly 1.2 million people. (I think that is the number, but it could be higher.) Far more than all of wars in U.S. history. A large fraction of those deaths could have been eliminated with common-sense measures such as padded dashboards and seatbelts. The death rate per mile has plummeted since the 1960s. The actual absolute number of people killed in many states has fallen to levels not seen since the 1920s. My point is, we are not living in 1870, or 1960. People will not put up with innovative new technology that is half-baked and dangerous. We have to do all of the RD anyway. It makes more sense to spend the money and do the work before the product is introduced. That will save thousands of lives and billions of dollars that would be wasted on third-rate, short-lived technology. We can learn from history. We do not have to kill and maim people and waste money the way our ancestors did. We can set a higher standard. Our society is much wealthier and better educated. We have computers. We have thousands of capable engineers and scientists in laboratories equipped with instruments that seem miraculous by the standards
[Vo]:March 22, 23
Does anybody think anything will happen with the LENR colloquium at CERN on the 22nd or George Miley's presentation on the 23rd of March? I really don't know what happens at these type of events. Is cold fusion going to finally be pushed into the mainstream?
Re: [Vo]:March 22, 23
I agree that it needs to be relatively safe if you are going to sell it, but you don't need a theory to prove it is safe. If he really has a device that can produce power at commercial levels, I don't want to see time wasted on explaining the theory of how the reaction works before he can sell it. Just as some others have said, we used fire for thousands of years before understanding how it worked. On Mar 16, 2012, at 4:19 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: I infer from what was conspicuously left out of your response is that Rossi, in your view, is at present to be placed in the buyer beware category. As I said in the past, I would not want to buy anything from him. Not even a nail clipper. Not because I think he is a crook. I know him pretty well. I have done business with him, and I know several other people who have. He is very difficult to deal with! He is mercurial, as I say. That's an old fashioned word meaning: Adjective: (of a person) Subject to sudden or unpredictable changes. I would be curious to know what you current take on Rossi is these days. Care to speculate? I wouldn't want to speculate about Rossi. He is the most unpredictable person I know. You never know what he will come up with. Or say, or do. He does things that make no sense to me, such as building a 1 MW reactor. That was an astounding accomplishment. Astounding technically, and astounding because it was so utterly pointless. But who knows . . . maybe he actually sold the thing for a barrel of money. I guess that would be the point. I could be wrong, but at present my own impression of Rossi is that he is not a scammer. I do not know of any evidence for a scam. No one has suggested a method you could use to fake most of these tests, especially the heat after death one in October. As I have often said, Rossi seems like the world's most inept confidence man. He inspires no confidence in anyone I know. As I said with regard to the NASA visit (described by Krivit) he might have inspired a little less confidence if he had met them at the door naked waving a shotgun. I suspect he actually does have a valid eCat technology for which he is trying very hard to develop and subsequently market. It looks valid to me, as does Defkalion's version. I think he is trying very hard to market it, but I think his methods are screwy. It is almost as if he is trying to fail. Like the business plan in The Producers. I simply have my doubts (or concerns) as to how reliable, in commercial terms, Rossi's current technology is. I would not want to live within 10 kilometers of a working 1 MW reactor. This is a nuclear reaction of unknown etiology, for goodness sake! A plan to sell thousands of these machines without first testing them exhaustively in major laboratories world-wide seems like lunacy to me. I can't imagine any government would allow it. I sure wouldn't, if I were a government official. Especially in the post-Fukushima world. Going around telling people: this is not a nuclear reaction -- the way Rossi is doing -- will not actually solve the problem. That does not ensure safety. Saying does not make it so. One serious accident could land Rossi or Defkalion in a world of trouble. It could hold back commercial production for years. There have been several unexplained serious accidents. See: http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=187#PhotosAccidents How on earth can they be sure it cannot happen to them? Do they understand the physics of cold fusion? No one does, as far as I know. I would not risk it if I were them. I would place devices in ten-thousand labs worldwide, and have those labs run up millions of hours of use. I would want to see every major scientist agree on theory, and -- more important -- every engineer agree the thing is safe. Do that before you sell a single reactor. I don't see how else you can do business in the 21st century. The public demands safety. The public deserves safety. We spend billions ensuring safety in new products such as the Prius or the Boeing Dreamliner airplane. It is worth every penny. Why should anyone take any risks when a little money up front can eliminate them? The cost per unit will be trivial. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik)
If cold fusion is real, Dick Smith immediately makes millions of dollars, so I don't think he would care much about losing a million. On Mar 1, 2012, at 12:15 AM, Jouni Valkonen wrote: If Dick Smith had not been such an ignorant jerk and had not turned down Defkalion's fair offer, he would have been one of the independent entities in testing Hyperions. Of course it is plausible, that losing $one million had been such a shock, that he would have hidden the results in shame and never publish them... —Jouni On 1 Mar 2012, at 07:16, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: What if DGT didn't have any tests? We'll never get results because these visiting entities might not even exist. Why can't DGT release the test results without the entities, but just don't mention who the entities are? This doesn't prove they have anything, but it's a start, and there is no reason not to. On Feb 29, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: Daniel: As DGT has stated SEVERAL times, is it up to the visiting entities, NOT DGT, to release test results!!! You are not reading things correctly.. perhaps because English is not your native language. Those entities, if they CHOOSE to release the results, will very likely do it via the mainstream media, and their own website, NOT DGT’s website. Thus, the closing down of the DGT forum will not make any difference as to whether data is publicly released… -Mark From: Daniel Rocha [mailto:danieldi...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik) Do not expect to see any data from these tests: Until Defkalion Green Technologies has its product, we shall no longer get involved in the games and blogs of online media. Our next announcement in the coming months will be that of a successful and certified product. http://defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4t=1278 Data is surely a part of these online games.
Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik)
It depends on what he loses it for. Why do milliionaires give a million dollars to charities? It would be a much better use of money to spend it on proving cold fusion is real. I think Dick Smith's offer is genuine, and he won't try to back out of paying the million dollars if it is proven. I do think he is kind of stupid with the protocols he was expecting Defkalion to make though. On Mar 1, 2012, at 10:32 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: If cold fusion is real, Dick Smith immediately makes millions of dollars, so I don't think he would care much about losing a million. It's been my experience that people with millions of dollars do care about losing a million dollars. T
Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik)
Yes, I know. His original offer to defkalion and Rossi are genuine, and this one is genuine even though it doesn't make sense. He's just stupid, but he is genuine. On Mar 1, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Randy Wuller wrote: The problem with Dick Smith's Prize is that it is being offered to the independent tester. On its face it seeks to compromise the independence and credibility of the tester. Nothing could be dumber. In addition the reason to establish a prize is to stimulate investment in an attempt to break a technological barrier, in that regard prizes are really effective. The Orteig prize won by Lindbergh was only $25,000 but generated investment of over $400,000. Smith's prize which is not paid to the LENR researcher/inventor does not even create this stimulus. Ransom - Original Message - From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik) It depends on what he loses it for. Why do milliionaires give a million dollars to charities? It would be a much better use of money to spend it on proving cold fusion is real. I think Dick Smith's offer is genuine, and he won't try to back out of paying the million dollars if it is proven. I do think he is kind of stupid with the protocols he was expecting Defkalion to make though. On Mar 1, 2012, at 10:32 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: If cold fusion is real, Dick Smith immediately makes millions of dollars, so I don't think he would care much about losing a million. It's been my experience that people with millions of dollars do care about losing a million dollars. T
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Forum Closed
I don't think the skepticism was bad at all on their forums. I also don't think it is the reason they shut down the forum. Why wouldn't they just ban them? The only thing anyone should care about at this point is independent verification. I don't know what they were expecting from a forum. How did they not know that a lot of people only care about independent verification, and if Defkalion is not willing to provide that, why set up a forum? The criticism was their own fault when they failed to follow their own protocols. I'm not going to accept this secret test BS much longer, either. They said they'd provide independent verification the first months of this year. I assume that means non secret independent verification by the end of this month, and I expect them to do this. If they don't, I'll become the next MaryYugo and really harp on Defkalion and Rossi. Actually, I probably won't because I'll just stop wasting my time on this pointless drama. On Mar 1, 2012, at 9:48 PM, Craig Brown wrote: This is all because of the MaryYugo's of the world. Irrational fear of the unknown coupled with a twisted desire to preserve scientific dogma. They would not have closed the forum had it not been for these clowns who think a scam lurks around every corner in their sad lives. Original Message Subject: [Vo]:Defkalion Forum Closed From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com Date: Fri, March 02, 2012 1:40 pm To: vortex-l@eskimo.com I have been there almost as long as the moderators. Now I get this message when I try to post: You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum sigh I hope they have something. If not, we are all fools. I am not amused. T
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion shutting down their forum .. again
Yes, I don't know why they had the forum in the first place. What are they expecting if they aren't willing to do an independent test? I didn't think the posts on the forum were that bad for any party. I didn't think the skepticism was unreasonable, but I did think running a forum was pretty much a waste of time. If all they are going to do is secret tests and delay another few months all the time, there is no use in following them any more. They may have a real device or they may not. They have no evidence at all at what they claim. I can say right now that I have a working cold fusion device in my garage, and it has been secretly tested by government officials, and I'd have the same credibility as they do. On Feb 29, 2012, at 3:37 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: From DGT: The situation now is different in that our openness creates problems that can damage the success of this project. ... Some may agree, and some may disagree with DGT's stated reasons for closing their forum. Personally, I'm surprised that DGT actually had a controversial forum of this nature up and running for as long as they had. Managing a forum of this nature struck me as an incredibly risky venture, a task that in the end becomes nearly impossible to control insofar as trying to maintain good PR is concerned. If I had been the CEO I wouldn't have authorized a forum of this nature, even though I know full well that it would have disappointed many, including myself. ...especially myself. I ask myself: Would Apple have allowed a controversial forum of this nature, a form that would have allowed Joe Public and all of his in-laws to argue incessantly over the so called merits (or the lack) of developing an iPhone iPad, particularly while the project was still under development? Granted, maybe Rossi DGT will turn out to be a scam operation, just as all the skeptics have been harping all along. I sincerely doubt it, but I must admit the fact that it is still a remote possibility. The way I see it, the fact that DGT decided to close their forum is no grounds, in my book, for suddenly feeling overly concerned. If anything, it suggests to me that DGT realizes they need to focus all their energies on the tasks-at-hand. It seems like every time there is another bump in the road certain skeptics point to the event as further proof that it's proof of scam operation. It can also cause certain believers fret and worry - endlessly. Why should DGT feel obligated to piss on the latest bonfire created by another rabid skeptic, or for that matter continue to assure hand wringing believers? Well... they don't! Chill out! Go get some authentic Greek Worry Beads! http://www.greekinternetmarket.com/worrybeads.php PS: I noticed that DGT continues to speak of Rossi in a reasonably respectful manner. Good business PR on their part. A mark of professionalism. My two cents. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik)
DGT may not owe us anything, but I don't owe them anything either. Defkalion has shown us nothing, and Rossi just had some demos that he was in complete control of. I don't owe them any patience, though I will still wait until March 31. If nothing happens by then, there is no reason for me to pay any more attention to this. Maybe it's just me, but if I was in Defkalion's position, I'd get independent verification as soon as possible. They should get plenty of money through awards and licenses if they sell the product to a large company. Everyday, the world is wasting billions of dollars and millions of people are dying unnecessarily. Just the discovery of an LENR device that produces useful energy output would end this waste immediately. Does it really make a difference if you are making a billion dollars in a world where basically everything is free? I would be happy enough knowing I helped every single person on the planet, and I wouldn't care much about the money. I'm not big into conspiracy theories. Oil companies would probably just switch to something dealing with LENR and make more money than before. If you're a scientist, it would create tons of good paying jobs, and you are at the forefront in an exciting new era of civilization. On Feb 29, 2012, at 9:46 PM, Eric Walker wrote: Hi Guenter -- your reply-to address is your own email address. On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote: DGT did not make a substantial error up to now. Btw, my own projects often have delays and complications and modifications. That's the way it is. In a situation like DGK or Rossi You have to fight against a headwind of 99%, and the rest is a substantial lot of idiots, who cannot tell the difference between a hole and a substantial spot. I agree with Defkalion that they are not obligated to continue to publicly discuss their progress. But from a PR perspective I think it's a gauche move to close their forum in this way. They've given skeptics additional credibility in calling the two main high-profile commercial LENR initiatives scams. Perhaps this will not affect Defkalion's own business plan since they're self-funded, but it could have ramifications for others who are interested in exploring the topic. It might have been preferable for Defkalion not to attempt to engage the public at all and to stay in stealth mode as long as possible. I can understand their learning about PR as they go. But with opinions so set against LENR in some mainstream scientific circles, here's to hoping that other initiatives will steer a steadier course in how they communicate to the public what they're doing. Eric
Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik)
What if DGT didn't have any tests? We'll never get results because these visiting entities might not even exist. Why can't DGT release the test results without the entities, but just don't mention who the entities are? This doesn't prove they have anything, but it's a start, and there is no reason not to. On Feb 29, 2012, at 11:02 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: Daniel: As DGT has stated SEVERAL times, is it up to the visiting entities, NOT DGT, to release test results!!! You are not reading things correctly.. perhaps because English is not your native language. Those entities, if they CHOOSE to release the results, will very likely do it via the mainstream media, and their own website, NOT DGT’s website. Thus, the closing down of the DGT forum will not make any difference as to whether data is publicly released… -Mark From: Daniel Rocha [mailto:danieldi...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 2:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik) Do not expect to see any data from these tests: Until Defkalion Green Technologies has its product, we shall no longer get involved in the games and blogs of online media. Our next announcement in the coming months will be that of a successful and certified product. http://defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4t=1278 Data is surely a part of these online games.
Re: [Vo]:DGT's 1st test did not test power, just safety (NyTeknik)
Whatever. Defkalion and Rossi themselves said they would have independent verification by the end of March. On Feb 29, 2012, at 11:18 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: You are in such a hurry. I will wait until Oct30th. I chose this date last year, for a 3rd party confirmation of a working product, because it is close to AR`s 1MW test. I will apply the same date to DGT. 2012/3/1 Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com DGT may not owe us anything, but I don't owe them anything either. Defkalion has shown us nothing, and Rossi just had some demos that he was in complete control of. I don't owe them any patience, though I will still wait until March 31. If nothing happens by then, there is no reason for me to pay any more attention to this. Maybe it's just me, but if I was in Defkalion's position, I'd get independent verification as soon as possible. They should get plenty of money through awards and licenses if they sell the product to a large company. Everyday, the world is wasting billions of dollars and millions of people are dying unnecessarily. Just the discovery of an LENR device that produces useful energy output would end this waste immediately. Does it really make a difference if you are making a billion dollars in a world where basically everything is free? I would be happy enough knowing I helped every single person on the planet, and I wouldn't care much about the money. I'm not big into conspiracy theories. Oil companies would probably just switch to something dealing with LENR and make more money than before. If you're a scientist, it would create tons of good paying jobs, and you are at the forefront in an exciting new era of civilization. On Feb 29, 2012, at 9:46 PM, Eric Walker wrote: Hi Guenter -- your reply-to address is your own email address. On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.com wrote: DGT did not make a substantial error up to now. Btw, my own projects often have delays and complications and modifications. That's the way it is. In a situation like DGK or Rossi You have to fight against a headwind of 99%, and the rest is a substantial lot of idiots, who cannot tell the difference between a hole and a substantial spot. I agree with Defkalion that they are not obligated to continue to publicly discuss their progress. But from a PR perspective I think it's a gauche move to close their forum in this way. They've given skeptics additional credibility in calling the two main high-profile commercial LENR initiatives scams. Perhaps this will not affect Defkalion's own business plan since they're self-funded, but it could have ramifications for others who are interested in exploring the topic. It might have been preferable for Defkalion not to attempt to engage the public at all and to stay in stealth mode as long as possible. I can understand their learning about PR as they go. But with opinions so set against LENR in some mainstream scientific circles, here's to hoping that other initiatives will steer a steadier course in how they communicate to the public what they're doing. Eric -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
That's not going to happen. Almost everyone who has made a lot of money off of new technology has stolen it from someone else. If Rossi really does have something, I hope he does get the money and fame he deserves, but I'm much more concerned about getting this product out to the public as soon as possible, and I'm not willing to wait for Rossi so he can make money. On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:55 AM, noone noone wrote: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
If everyone was better off, including yourself, you'd still follow your values? I completely disagree with this. All I care about is making people's lives better. On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:32 PM, noone noone wrote: When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
If your definition of Christianity is following every line of the bible, than I am not a Christian. But the bible itself says that the only requirement for Christianity is believing God sent someone down to die for our sins. By this definition, I am a Christian. I actually don't give a crap what the bible says. It's just a collection of made up stories. Why didn't Jesus come from China, India, or even America? There are more people in other areas of the world. And why should I believe in Christianity just because other people or my parents do? Most people believe in things that I disagree with like a democracy being the best form of government. If the majority of people are wrong about that, can't they be wrong about Christianity as well? You're saying you can't have values if you are not a Christian? Isn't cold fusion a gift from God, something God created, so Rossi would actually be stealing by hoarding this technology. Doesn't the bible say to help thy neighbor. Rossi has the chance to help millions of people, but he would rather hoard all of the wealth to himself. So, he would be going against his values at the same time he is sticking with his values. Most people want freedom because they think it will lead to a better life. If there was a situation where everyone knew freedom would lead to a worse life but their values would be upheld, no one, except maybe you, would want freedom. Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:19:26 -0800 From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Of course other people can have different values, but it does not mean their values are the correct ones. There can only be one correct set of values for humanity when it comes to right and wrong. If you are for an open marriage, you are obviously not a Christian. I think you have the right to have an open marriage and the right to call yourself a Christian if you want. But I will state for the record that according to the Bible an open marriage is absolutely wrong, and immoral. However, as a small govt. advocate I would openly stand up for your right to be in an open marriage, or be married to a dozen women if you want. But at the same time I would say that you were living an immoral life that I thought was wrong. In my opinion, rights and freedoms are not to make your life better. They are about keeping you free. Being free may not always be easy or a good experience. Expressing your freedom can get you killed in many areas of the world. However, we are all born with certain rights and freedoms that come from our creator. We have to stand up for those rights and freedoms. Of course people have the choice not to. If they do not stand up for ALL their rights I think they have less moral grounds to complain when someone violates a certain right. For example, those who have no problem with inventors having their technology stolen if it benefits the planet have no moral authority to compalin if an evil person steals from them. Theft is theft. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Can't someone have different values than you? I am all for open marriage. How am I not a Christian if I favor open marriage? The only purpose of having rights and freedoms is to make your life better. If life is better without freedoms, I don't want freedom. According to you, don't people have the right to support war if they want to? Do people have the right to sell themselves into slavery? Believe it or not, I'm actually more of an outcast than you are, especially on the internet. I don't care what people think about me, either. I don't like to call people names on the internet, but you are making it very hard:). Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0800 From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time To: vortex-l@eskimo.com One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your presentation. Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I think the spiritual connection that makes a couple married is cut. Secondly, I think
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device is headed for the market? From: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:25:15 -0700 As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation forbidden ) if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that seems to imply that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ). A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't realizes what just happened. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inventions_and_withholding_of_patent Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US -Original Messag [Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] e- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] ... - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device is headed for the market? From: oldja...@hotmail.com To: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:47:00 -0500 Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device is headed for the market? From: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:25:15 -0700 As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation forbidden ) if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that seems to imply that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ). A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't realizes what just happened. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inventions_and_withholding_of_patent Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US -Original Messag [Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] e- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] ... - Jed
[Vo]:Test day in Greece time
I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Dick Deal Dead
I agree. At least Defkalion looked into it unlike Rossi, and I can respect them for at least trying to make it work. Smith's criteria were pretty ridiculous. He really needs to get someone who knows what they are talking about and work out a deal with Defkalion. On Feb 21, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: He was just an asshole. No more, no less. And a dumb one. 2012/2/21 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com http://ecatnews.com/?p=2081 I guess it wasn't enough to simply have it proven to him alone. T -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Simple Genius: This Says it all!
Everything you just said is your personal opinion too you know. People's values are stupid. You said the guy who was terminally ill would rather have a good doctor than LENR. This is because he is basing his decision off his emotions and doesn't think. If LENR was widespread, we could have more money to spend on health care and less time wasted on other things so that we could have more and better doctors. Maybe if he would have been smarter in 1989 and invested in LENR, his life would have been saved, so it's his own fault to be in this situation now. Only good government leaders realize this, so socialism with good leaders is the best form of government. I'll be making plenty of money, so it doesn't bother me personally that the people who don't work that hard get paid the most. On Feb 18, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Craig Haynie wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: The problem with all of that is the ones who work the least are the ones with the most money. It's only a problem to you. Do you think Buffet really worked a million times harder than the average person? No, but he has a very rare talent. What Buffet does is find companies with a good business plan and good management, and he buys their stock. In the aggregate, over the course of Buffet's life, he has funneled more money into companies that use it productively, than others would have done with this money, without him. We have no idea how this may have helped improve technology, or the economy, or how it helped to bring new innovations to market. It is an unmeasurable benefit. Socialism does not mean equality, but I really don't think Buffet deserves to make a million times more just because he can shuffle stocks around. And here you're injecting your opinion into the issue. Socialism just means government ownership of business which is a lot of times more efficient than private ownership. Socialism can never be more efficient than private business because there is no accountability for the money spent. When people spend money that is taken from others by force and threats of violence, they then use it to pursue their own values in deference to the values of those from whom they took the money. They may be making themselves more efficient at pursuing their own values, but are necessarily depriving others of the ability to pursue the values held by those others, because they took the money of those others. For example, when the government creates Amtrak and subsidizes passenger rail, they do this by taking money from people by threats of violence. This deprives those people from whom they took the money of the ability to pursue their values to some degree. Now the government runs a railroad, and for those who are hired by Amtrak, their lives may be better off. If those people sought jobs from Amtrak because they love railroads then they are then able to pursue careers in a field of their choice, but only at the expense of those who were deprived of their money through force, to run Amtrak. Some customers might be better off using rail in an era when rail can't survive in the market on its own, but Amtrak was created because most people would rather fly when they travel, and those customers who'd rather fly, are simply being deprived of their money in this whole process. There is no improvement in efficiency. Engineers and scientists should get paid more while lawyers and doctors should get paid less because they are more important for society. There's no way to know who's important to society and who isn't. Importance is a value judgement. To the person saved from a terminal disease by the latest advancement in technology, that doctor might be far more important to them than the engineer who invented the eCat. Here's a question for this professor. If the majority of people are stupid enough to vote for Obama, do you think they could manage their own finances or run their own businesses? Political preference is not a determining factor in intelligence. If you had a smart person like me as leader of the country back in 1989, we'd already have LENR as our main energy source if it is real. There are not many private businesses willing to touch cold fusion, but the government can invest in it if they were smart. Again, you're interjecting your personal values into the issue. YOU may believe that LENR is a good risk for YOUR money, but here you are suggesting that you take money from others by force and threats of violence, and use it to pursue those things that match YOUR values. This has nothing to do with being smart. It has everything to do with how the lives and property of others could be expropriated by you. And if LENR is not real(which I don't think is the case)? Well, both private businesses and the government have
Re: [Vo]:1 MW customer
Thank you. I've been following this for quite a while and have not seen anything mentioned about it. If I wouldn't have asked multiple times, it would have probably been ignored and never answered. You said you forgot about it. A good sign of a scam is distracting and delaying which is what Rossi's response looks like. I'm not saying it is a scam. Like I said, the only thing helping Rossi right now is Defkalion. I'll wait for their tests and form my opinion then. On Feb 17, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Robert Leguillon wrote: The question was eventually asked, and skirted on Rossi's journal-of-nuclear-physics.com: Q: Bill Conley February 16th, 2012 at 10:27 AM Mr. Rossi, Several months ago you said that although your first 1MW plant client wished to remain confidential, a second client was willing to be publicly identified and we would hear about them soon. Several months have passed and we have heard no more about this second client. Can you give us an update. We would love to be able to hear the experience of a real E-Cat user, something that we can only dream about at this point. Thanks and best wishes on your very important work. A: Andrea Rossi February 17th, 2012 at 9:27 AM Dear Bill Conley: With the puppet snakes, the greek clowns and other vultures around I have to protect our Customers from any kind of internet assault, so I have to be very closed in this period. Our Customers are working in peace, we too, our patents are going through, and when we will put our product in the massive market, well protected by our patents and by very cheap prices, your dreams to see an E-Cat working in your house will be reality. In this moment I would just give free information to the hordes of wannabe competitors. Warm Regards, A.R. http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=580#comments Just to be clear, there is no problem proposing the initial question on vortex. Sometimes, everyone forgets the minutiae, and deadlines pass unchallenged. I'd honestly forgotten about Rossi's claim to a public customer until it resurfaced recently. /pulling out soapbox/ It is asking the same question repeatedly, demanding an answer, that quickly devolves into general sneering. Though it may not be obvious at first glance, there is a wide spectrum from belief-to-skepticism here. Especially with Rossi. Everyone weighs out the evidence on their own, and comes to their own conclusion. More recently, some expect to save everyone from mass delusion, but fail the simple task of querying the vortex archive to see if the issue has been previously addressed.
Re: [Vo]:Simple Genius: This Says it all!
I agree with you that science and technology is the most important for growth in society. The only way to improve the economy is to improve science and technology. Average people and average business owners don't see the benefits of improvements in technology. Average people can only think about the way it has always been done. This is why a government with good leaders can significantly increase funding in science and technology. This means a government with good leaders is much more efficient than what we are currently doing. On Feb 17, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: This is a political topic which, as Robert pointed out, should be moved to vortexb-l. However I would like to make some apolitical comments which I hope will not be considered controversial. I am a big fan of capitalism. I think I made that clear in my book. It is not perfect, but no system is. It must be regulated. Some things, such as building roads and health care are best handled were paid for by the government because of the nature of the technology. it just happens that was early 21th first century healthcare costs are very high for various reasons. One of these reasons is that the technology of healthcare is changing rapidly. The pace of change will slow down in the future and medical equipment cost will fall. Anyway, people cannot afford to pay for catastrophic healthcare themselves. This was not true 100 years ago and it may not be true 100 years in the future. Perhaps I am the proverbial man with a hammer who sees all problems as a nail, but from my point of view technology is both the source of many of our problems and the cure. Many problems which politicians and opinion makers assume must be solved with social policy or tax policy should actually be solved by inventing new technology, or by forcibly abandoning old technologies such as coal-burning generators. Obviously cold fusion is most dramatic example of a solution that will obviate the need for sacrifice, difficult choices, wars for oil and so on. People are seldom aware of how important technology is or how much we have benefited from it. They take things for granted. When personal computers first appeared they seemed miraculous to most people. The ability to type a document without retyping seemed wonderful to people who were used to typewriters or pen and paper. nowadays we take them for granted and we complain about their shortcomings more than we appreciate their benefits Even though I appreciate what capitalists have done, I believe engineers and scientists have contributed more. Steve Jobs was a great businessman, but we can thank Woz for the Apple. Woz and the people at Xerox Parc. If cold fusion succeeds, I predict that in the long view of history, Fleischmann and Pons will have contributed more to our happiness and to the survival of the human race and the ecosystem than all 20th century capitalists combined. Fleischmann, Pons, Mizuno and most other cold fusion researchers are not motivated by capitalism. They are driven mainly by curiosity, an instinct far more ancient and fundamental than acquisitiveness. Curiosity is exhibited by animals as small and simple as the guppy, a creature which certainly cannot conceive of ownership and probably has no sentience or sense of self. (A cricket cannot distinguish other individual crickets from one another, or even from a plastic cricket held by a biologist.) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Simple Genius: This Says it all!
It's a good thing that people's jobs become irrelevant. You know what you do when technology replaces jobs? You don't create more worthless office jobs, but you shorten the workweek while still getting paid the same. Technology should replace jobs. There is no need to work 40 hours anymore. Do you know what would create millions of jobs? Digging ditches with spoons, go back to 17th century farm techniques, and cutting down trees with an axe. Of course, doing this would be silly, but it illustrates that there is an increasing number of worthless office jobs. On Feb 17, 2012, at 10:17 PM, Eric Walker wrote: Technological development is very welcome, in part for the increase in productivity that it brings and for its connection to economic growth. But the introduction of significant gains in productivity is a two-edged sword. It can often lead to people's skills becoming irrelevant and their positions redundant. For long-term economic growth and increased purchasing power on the part of consumers, I don't see how you can get around an intelligent social policy of some kind, one that focuses on education and the development of skills needed for the workplace, including, of course, technological ones. I see a similar need for well-conceived energy and scientific research policies. Whatever inefficiencies there have been, governments have been central to driving change in these areas for many decades. Eric On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: I agree with you that science and technology is the most important for growth in society. The only way to improve the economy is to improve science and technology. Average people and average business owners don't see the benefits of improvements in technology. Average people can only think about the way it has always been done. This is why a government with good leaders can significantly increase funding in science and technology. This means a government with good leaders is much more efficient than what we are currently doing.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW customer
No sneering? I'm not trying to mock anything. I just have a question that I'd like answered. On Feb 15, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: When are we going to get information about the non-secretive 1 MW customer? I believe Rossi said he had a customer in 3 months time right after the October 28th demonstration who was not confidential. It has now been over 3 months, and I haven't heard anything new since then. Have you read rule #2 for this forum. I would advise you to do so. T
Re: [Vo]:1 MW customer
I'm still sitting on the fence on Rossi. Pretty much the only thing that is helping him is Defkalion. If Defkalion is proven with these independent tests, Rossi is proven. So I will still wait until March 31. Now for my question, Rossi said there was to be a non-secretive customer in 3 months over 3 months ago. Is there any new information on this since that time? I'm being very patient and am just following the timeline Rossi and Defkalion have laid out. If they can't follow their own timeline, there is no use paying attention to them. On Feb 16, 2012, at 8:09 AM, Chemical Engineer wrote: Like I said, man has waited 46,000 years, you have only waited 3 months, be appreciative that something like this may happen in your lifetime. Sounds like DGT independent testing will begin Feb 24th. Hopefully one of Leonardo Corp's new Board of Director's first decisions will be to remove Rossi from his Public Relations duties and move him to internal special projects... If the technology works he should be recognized for his contributions to the LENR field and definitely not the PR field. On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: No sneering? I'm not trying to mock anything. I just have a question that I'd like answered. On Feb 15, 2012, at 8:00 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: When are we going to get information about the non-secretive 1 MW customer? I believe Rossi said he had a customer in 3 months time right after the October 28th demonstration who was not confidential. It has now been over 3 months, and I haven't heard anything new since then. Have you read rule #2 for this forum. I would advise you to do so. T
Re: [Vo]:Simple Genius: This Says it all!
The problem with all of that is the ones who work the least are the ones with the most money. Do you think Buffet really worked a million times harder than the average person? Socialism does not mean equality, but I really don't think Buffet deserves to make a million times more just because he can shuffle stocks around. Socialism just means government ownership of business which is a lot of times more efficient than private ownership. Engineers and scientists should get paid more while lawyers and doctors should get paid less because they are more important for society. Here's a question for this professor. If the majority of people are stupid enough to vote for Obama, do you think they could manage their own finances or run their own businesses? If you had a smart person like me as leader of the country back in 1989, we'd already have LENR as our main energy source if it is real. There are not many private businesses willing to touch cold fusion, but the government can invest in it if they were smart. And if LENR is not real(which I don't think is the case)? Well, both private businesses and the government have wasted trillions on a lot of stupider things. I am not in favor of welfare, but government ownership of business and investments is much more efficient than private ownership. The problem is not government itself. It's the CURRENT government made up of incompetent people, picked by incompetent people. On Feb 16, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Wm. Scott Smith wrote: SOME IDEAS ARE SO STUPID ONLY INTELLECTUALS BELIEVE THEM. George Orwell When the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Is this man truly a genius? Checked out and this is true...it DID happen! image001.jpg An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all). After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little. The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on) Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections. These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment: 1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. 2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. 3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. 4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it! 5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation. Can you think of a reason for not sharing this? Neither could I.
Re: [Vo]:Do you think Rossi will still be too busy?
There is absolutely no excuse why Rossi wouldn't accept this offer. I was sitting on the fence with Rossi, but now I'm leaning more towards him being a fraud. It is a million dollars for a simple test. It would be a much better use of his time than writing about snakes and clowns on his blog. Rossi also wants people to buy the e-cat before they test it. Does anyone see the problem with that? With 13 sales, he supposedly has $26 million. He had to sell his house to have enough money for the e-cat. Unless he is getting a large cash infusion from his secret partners, he could easily use a million dollars. He still needs to run a lot more public tests if he expects to sell a million e-cats. I don't know why he'd trust customers to test it with their protocols, but not an independent test with testing procedures accepted by him. This makes no sense whatsoever. What if the customer buys it, steals his ideas, and makes their own e-cat to run Rossi out of business? And what happened to his 1 MW customer who wasn't supposed to be secret. Shouldn't we have heard something about that by now? Rossi is looking more like a fraud everyday, and what does that say about Defkalion who is only in the LENR business because of Rossi. If no valid tests are performed by either group by March 31, this whole thing is most likely a fraud. On Feb 15, 2012, at 4:34 AM, Gigi DiMarco wrote: I think Rossi is adding to English more words, coming in some sense from Italian, than in the last 5 centuries. Clownerie has been translated by Akira into travesty. Clownerie is another Rossi's invention, if I can imagine what take places into his brain I think the right path is clown == pagliaccio == pagliacciata (the act of being a clown) == clownerie; I think it should be translated into buffoonery (clowning, silly behaviour) 2012/2/14 Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com Smith Offers $1 Million Prize for Successful E-Cat Demo by Steven B. Krivit From: Margot Egan [on behalf of Dick Smith] Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:51 PM To: Andrea Rossi Re. E-CAT Subject: from Dick Smith in Australia Re. U.S. One Million Dollars for Successful Re-Testing of E-CAT To: Andrea Rossi From: Dick Smith Dear Mr Rossi Re: USD1,000,000 for Successful Repeat of E-CAT Demonstration Dick Smith is my name. I am writing to you from Sydney, Australia. Possibly the best information in relation to my background is on Wikipedia - see HERE. Some time ago I was contacted by Mr Sol Millin of the Byron New Energy Trust. Mr Millin has had extensive communication with you. Mr Millin communicated the advantages of your ECAT unit in relation to energy and how it had the potential to solve the world’s energy problems. Mr Millin said that he had your authority to act on your behalf in relation to an agreement for the Australian “rights” to your invention. After some discussion, I agreed that I would invest AUD200,000 provided that evidence could be shown that the unit actually worked as claimed. There has been a lot of to’ing-and-fro’ing since then, with Mr Millin claiming that he has provided me with the evidence and with my insistence that this is not the case. At one stage Mr Millin even sent me an email (attached) threatening to sue me for one-hundred-million-dollars if I did not proceed with sending him my AUD200,000. As Mr Millin and I do not seem to be getting anywhere on this issue, I have determined a way that we could possibly break this nexus, i.e. I would like to offer you USD1,000,000 for a successful repeat of the March 29, 2011 demonstration. One million US dollars will be made out to you as a Bank cheque or will be held in an escrow account if you desire. I do not want to know how the unit operates, nor to have a share in the profits from any sales. My satisfaction will come from knowing that if the unit is successful, then some of the world’s greatest problems – especially in relation to climate change – will be solved. I point out that over the last few decades my wife and I have donated many millions of dollars to scientific research, much of it without any immediate results. We have not complained about this. My offer is very simple, which I will restate: I ask you to repeat the March 29, 2011 demonstration purported to show that your E-CAT unit had an output power of many times the input power through LENR (low energy nuclear reactions). As the sole judges as to whether this can be repeated correctly, I suggest we use the two Swedish scientists, Kullander and Essen, as they attended the March 2011 demonstration and wrote a report. I would be happy to cover any reasonable cost of having them flying to Italy to attend the repeat of the demonstration. They can then check the wires (because, as you know, there have been claims that the wiring may have been misconnected) and also the
Re: [Vo]:Do you think Rossi will still be too busy?
What was the point in the 1 MW sales then if he didn't need the money? Couldn't he have partnered with someone without the wasted time on the 1 MW plant? You really don't think his customers are reverse engineering his technology if it is a 64 trillion dollar business? Dick Smith is just another customer and Rossi said customers can run whatever tests they want. Rossi is making pure profit with just a simple test. Rossi should spend a little less time on blogging and calling people snakes when he could be making money with business. Rossi said he didn't care if the results are published to the public. Making a million e-cats is going to take a lot of money. Where is he getting his money from? Nothing he does makes any sense, unless he's an idiot who stumbled upon cold fusion or he is a fraud. Almost everything has been Rossi said, and most of what Rossi said has been lies. Why is there any reason to believe anything he says? I was willing to wait until March 31 before I decided if Rossi was a fraud or not, but right now I'm leaning heavily towards being a fraud because of the lies he has told. I am under no obligation to believe Rossi's claims if he won't allow a legitimate test that benefits him greatly. Again, what happened to the non-secretive 1 MW customer? Rossi said it would take about 3 months for that sale right after his October 28th demonstration. It has been over 3 months and there is no news at all. On Feb 15, 2012, at 10:05 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: From Jarold: There is absolutely no excuse why Rossi wouldn't accept this offer. I was sitting on the fence with Rossi, but now I'm leaning more towards him being a fraud. ... Many here (including myself) wish that Rossi would accept the challenge. However, Rossi is under no obligation to prove to any of us, us who reside in the honorable peanut gallery, that his eCat claims are legitimate. All that seems matters to Rossi is the immediate care and feeding of his mysterious business relationships. THAT is the 64 trillion dollar question that we should be trying to get a better handle on. As Jed as already stated, Rossi has repeatedly stated that there will be no more public demonstrations or tests! ... that is, unless Rossi decides to change his mind, which he could do on a dime if he feels it would be in his best interests to do so. There have also been plenty of reasons brought forth from individuals, including McKubre pertaining to why Rossi seems to feel it is not necessarily in his best interest to prove to the world at this particular moment in time that his eCats are for real. All that matters to Rossi is that his carefully guarded business interests believe that his eCats are for real - by allowing THEM to perform all the necessary due diligence they need to do on his eCats in private. Meanwhile, if the rest of the world, his critics, as well as potential competition don't think he eCats are for real, all to the better. Many fret about Rossi's behavior. They just can't seem to understand why he behaves in the quirky manner that he does. They just don't like it! All I can say is: expect more of the same from Rossi. Get over it. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Testing
I have been very patient with all of this. I was willing to wait until March 31, and even then I wouldn't consider it 100% fraud with no tests. Rossi is a liar if he doesn't even look into conducting a test with Smith, and there is no reason to believe anything he says with no proof. On Feb 15, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Robert Leguillon wrote: From Jarold: /snip/ and what does that say about Defkalion who is only in the LENR business because of Rossi. If no valid tests are performed by either group by March 31, this whole thing is most likely a fraud. /snip/ Defkalion GT was not invited and did not participate officially in any public demonstration nor the preparation of any other third party's public event related to LENR devises [sic], since 17th of January 2011. (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4t=258p=3300#p3300) When Rossi allegedly failed to meet contractual requirements, Defkalion went silent. As the relationship was severed, between July to October of 2011, they weren't releasing any information. These are the expected actions of someone reassessing their lot. The impression that I get (baseless speculation) is that Rossi may have misled Defkalion as to his success with Ni-H, and his alleged catalyst. But, possibly, his core idea of using micro/nano nickel was indeed a breakthrough. When Defkalion pushed forward on their own, they may have found a way to get reliable, controllable, excess heat. Their silence-then-reemergence is interesting. Where Rossi's past may be entirely consistent with that of someone profiting from outrageous claims, the named Defkalion directors do not strike me as a group of con-artists. If the scenario really were that they were victims of a con, what are the odds that they could all be brought on board to perpetuate the scam? These are former chairmen, presidents, and even an ambassador. Aside from a few photos/videos, there has been no evidence that Defkalion does, or does not have the technology. Inviting people inside, and promising upcoming independent testing, are great signs that they believe they do. It is wrong to place arbitrary time frames on what appears to be a more reasoned approach. They are not obligated to provide us with anything, but they seem to understand that there is a wall of doubt to overcome. Moreover, they finally seem ready to address those doubts. They've even claimed that most of third party tests will be streamed on the Internet, if the testers agree (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4t=926start=200). Patience. R.L.
Re: [Vo]:Do you think Rossi will still be too busy?
Rossi is either ignorant, or he is a blatant liar. Either way, it doesn't look good. Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't have an LENR device, but he loses all credibility from me. It would be no different if I claimed to have a working cold fusion device and am working with a secret customer. What happened to the customer who wasn't secretive? He said within 3 months over 3 months ago, and there is no new information. On Feb 15, 2012, at 1:32 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: Jarold, You seem to have issues with Rossi's quirky unpredictable behavior. Many do. You are in good company. If you are leaning towards the opinion that Rossi is a fraud you can at least feel assured of the fact that your opinion is shared by many. I'm sure Krivit would approve. Why don't you post your concerns over at NET and see what comes of it. You may get some responses. Quite frankly, after everything I've heard, both pro and con, I realize I still don't know enough about Rossi to feel like I can pass a definitive conclusion on the matter, for or against. With that said it's true that, at least for now, I'm still leaning towards the opinion that Rossi and his eCats aren't fraudulent, but I could be wrong. The best I can do for now is to consider the conclusions of experts who are far more knowledgeable on Rossi than I. Many of them seem convinced that his eCat technology, flawed it may be, is authentic. Therefore, until further developments are forthcoming I can live with my uncertainty. I can live with the fact that my tentative conclusions could eventually be proven wrong. You, on the other hand, seem to be having difficulty living with your own uncertainty when it comes to passing judgment on Rossi. IMHO, you seem to have entrapped yourself within an endless maze of unrequited speculation. It will get you nowhere. That's why I suggested in my previous post that you might try to ease up and: Get over it. Rest assured. Rossi's true colors, whether they be pro or con, will eventually be revealed. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Testing
I've been on the fence until just a couple of days ago when I heard Rossi's terrible excuse for not even giving Smith's proposal a chance. I want real answers for his refusal instead of snakes and clowns. Some other things Rossi has said haven't come to fruition. I'm using his timeline, and he hasn't delivered. Rossi's actions over the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is a greater chance of him being a fraud. I'll wait until my original deadline of March 31, but there really needs to start being some answers instead of speculation. On Feb 15, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: Oh no… sounds like MaryYugo’s brother… only worse. Jarold, GET OVER IT! Just wait it out like the rest of us… Or, get some people and equipment together and try to replicate it like a few of us… If it makes you feel good, just call it a fraud and move on… nothing to see here. -Mark From: Jarold McWilliams [mailto:oldja...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:48 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Testing I have been very patient with all of this. I was willing to wait until March 31, and even then I wouldn't consider it 100% fraud with no tests. Rossi is a liar if he doesn't even look into conducting a test with Smith, and there is no reason to believe anything he says with no proof. On Feb 15, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Robert Leguillon wrote:
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Testing
Just more useless speculation that you are wrong about. I was on DGT while MY was there, and I told her/him to be more patient until more information was released. Rossi refused to do something that he said he was going to do. On Feb 15, 2012, at 4:22 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Oh no… sounds like MaryYugo’s brother… only worse. Well, hmmm. He did appear on PDGT *after* MY's ban there. And here . . . T
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Testing
It's my deadline based on the things both Rossi and Defkalion said. If nothing happens by that time, I will stop paying attention to this drama and consider that it is most likely a fraud. On Feb 15, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Patrick Ellul wrote: Hi Jarold, What will exactly happen on your self-imposed deadline date? Regards, Patrick On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: I've been on the fence until just a couple of days ago when I heard Rossi's terrible excuse for not even giving Smith's proposal a chance. I want real answers for his refusal instead of snakes and clowns. Some other things Rossi has said haven't come to fruition. I'm using his timeline, and he hasn't delivered. Rossi's actions over the last couple of weeks have made me think that there is a greater chance of him being a fraud. I'll wait until my original deadline of March 31, but there really needs to start being some answers instead of speculation. On Feb 15, 2012, at 1:42 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: Oh no… sounds like MaryYugo’s brother… only worse. Jarold, GET OVER IT! Just wait it out like the rest of us… Or, get some people and equipment together and try to replicate it like a few of us… If it makes you feel good, just call it a fraud and move on… nothing to see here. -Mark From: Jarold McWilliams [mailto:oldja...@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:48 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Testing I have been very patient with all of this. I was willing to wait until March 31, and even then I wouldn't consider it 100% fraud with no tests. Rossi is a liar if he doesn't even look into conducting a test with Smith, and there is no reason to believe anything he says with no proof. On Feb 15, 2012, at 11:15 AM, Robert Leguillon wrote: -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Testing
I can prove that I've had it since April, 2010, but I think I've had it since about 2008. On Feb 15, 2012, at 6:38 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: Just more useless speculation that you are wrong about. I was on DGT while MY was there, and I told her/him to be more patient until more information was released. Well, we are familiar with MPD. How old is your hotmail account? T
[Vo]:1 MW customer
When are we going to get information about the non-secretive 1 MW customer? I believe Rossi said he had a customer in 3 months time right after the October 28th demonstration who was not confidential. It has now been over 3 months, and I haven't heard anything new since then.
