RE: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers

2013-01-02 Thread Zell, Chris
Just exploring?  Would you like more of these sort of comments from Hansen, 
perhaps?

Or maybe people with some authority trying to compare climate deniers to 
pedophiles, as recently reported on Drudge?


Re: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers

2013-01-01 Thread Alain Sepeda
This is something hard to accept for convinced people, but it is a great
principle.
The free speech constitutional principle seems very important...

LENR seems victim of an indirect restriction of free speech in  science,
where inconvenient position lead to lost of funding, and blacklisting...
hopefully not so total, letting zone beyond the border free to think
differently (Italy science, japan business)...

This principle of free-speech and dissenter protection, is one key finding
made by Roland benabou when he analyze cause and consequence of hi
Groupthink/Delusion model of rational denial.
( see
http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?27-How-is-it-possible-so-many-scientist-be-wrongp=35viewfull=1#post35)

in his paper
http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Patterns%20of%20Denial%204l%20fin.pdf
see that quote page 3:
The model’s welfare analysis makes clear what factors distinguish valuable
group morale
from harmful groupthink, irrespective of anticipatory payoff, which average
out across states of the world. It furthermore explains why organizations
and societies …and it desirable to set up ex-ante commitment mechanisms
protecting and encouraging dissent (constitutional guarantees of free
speech, whistle-blower protections, devil’s advocates, etc.), even when
ex-post everyone would unanimously want to ignore or “kill” the messengers
of bad news.

2013/1/1 Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com

 My sense is that minority opinion is *usually* wrong, but the exceptions
 can be doozies! We need minority opinion, it will keep the majority on its
 toes, and ... sometimes the minority is actually right.


Re: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers

2012-12-31 Thread David Roberson
The guy obviously has a major problem to think this way.  I wonder if he will 
be willing to accept that penalty should it be shown that global warming is 
natural and can be mitigated in the future by relatively simple means?  
Speaking of settled science


Dave



-Original Message-
From: Zell, Chris chrisz...@wetmtv.com
To: 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 31, 2012 10:19 am
Subject: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers


http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/
 
This ugly spirit is ruining free inquiry and science in general.  Fortunately, 
he lacks credibility on the subject.
 


Re: [Vo]:OT: Call For Death Of Climate Deniers

2012-12-31 Thread Abd ul-Rahman Lomax

At 10:18 AM 12/31/2012, Zell, Chris wrote:

http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/

This ugly spirit is ruining free inquiry and science in 
general.  Fortunately, he lacks credibility on the subject.


Before spreading stuff like this, taken from a blog, I suggest 
*actually checking it*. The man in question, who was simply exploring 
an idea on his own blog, quickly apologised, yesterday.


I found the source by following a link from Joanne Nova's blog at 
http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/ 
and from there to his More comment about his opposition to the death penalty.


I understand what he was saying.

Without raising the argument, *suppose* that global warming will 
happen, and it's caused by us, and it will cause millions of deaths. 
Maybe a billion.


If so, the global warming denial, the argument would go, could cause 
a billion deaths, and if that's so, the professor suggested that this 
would be worthy of the death penalty.


Now, the man is a strong supporter of Amnesty International. He's 
*firmly* opposed to the death penalty. I read his thinking as simply 
saying that this is a very serious matter.


Backing up, we, as a society need to be able to *think*. The thought 
process requires taking up ideas and *holding* them for a time.


Just because an idea, if accepted, could mean that a billion people 
would die, does *not* mean that someone should be taken out and shot 
because they have the idea and express it!


It's also possible that if a huge amount of effort it put into 
avoiding a non-existent hazard, if that's what global warming is, 
resources would be wasted that could save a billion lives, eventually.


To make genuine choices, we need to be able to think regardless of 
political correctness -- or any sort of fixed assumptions. We need 
our full collective intelligence. That requires freedom of thought 
and, generally, expression.


In all directions.

But *action* is another thing. Action to harm our ability to think 
clearly, collectively, would be *oppressive*, and that is where 
serious response could become appropriate. We have, for very good 
reason, developed strong traditions of intellectual freedom, and we 
need to guard against a constant tendency to repress minority opinion.


My sense is that minority opinion is *usually* wrong, but the 
exceptions can be doozies! We need minority opinion, it will keep the 
majority on its toes, and ... sometimes the minority is actually right.


From the professor's web site, 
http://www.uni-graz.at/richard.parncutt/climatechange_apology.html




Global warming

I wish to apologize publicly to all those who were offended by texts 
that were previously posted at this address. I made claims that were 
incorrect and comparisons that were completely inappropriate, which 
I deeply regret. I alone am entirely responsible for the content of 
those texts, which I hereby withdraw in their entirety. I would also 
like to thank all those who took the time and trouble to share their 
thoughts in emails.


In October 2012, I wrote the following on this page: I have always 
been opposed to the death penalty in all cases, and I have always 
supported the clear and consistent stand of Amnesty International on 
this issue. The death penalty is barbaric, racist, expensive, and is 
often applied by mistake. I wish to confirm that this is indeed my 
opinion. More generally, all human beings in all places and at all 
times have equal rights. I have been a member and financial 
supporter of Amnesty International for at least 18 years, and I 
admire and support their universal, altruistic approach to defending 
human rights.


The following extract from the text was intended to apply to the 
entire text: Please note that I am not directly suggesting that the 
threat of execution be carried out. I am simply presenting a logical 
argument. I am neither a politician nor a lawyer. I am just thinking 
aloud about an important problem.


Richard Parncutt, 27-30 December 2012