[Vo]: Heat Engines Simplified

2013-02-08 Thread David Roberson

On many occasions posts are placed in vortex that discuss the efficiency of 
heat engines and cycles as well as whether or not all the heat can be extracted 
from a system and so on.  A thought occurred to me earlier today which made 
much of the confusion go away and I wanted to share that concept with the 
others in the group.  It is my hope that this unusual way of looking at these 
types of problems will simplify these outwardly complex looking systems.


The first thing that needs to be considered is that the conservation of energy 
is preserved in these machines and systems.  When we speak of efficiency, it is 
should not be considered a loss of energy at all, but the lack of ability to 
extract all of the energy that is available from the source.   The energy that 
is not turned into work by the machine is simply returned to the environment 
and could be released under the right circumstances.


My thought experiment followed an interesting path.  First, think of having an 
isolated system such as a resistor in empty space that is at essentially zero 
Kelvin and  kinetic energy that matches.  This resistor has leads attached to 
it and we connect a voltage source.  According to standard electrical rules, 
energy will be given to the resistor at a rate proportional to the power 
applied.  For example, if 1 watt is being delivered to the resistor, then it is 
absorbing energy at a rate of 1 joule per second.


I am quite confident that everyone reading vortex posts understands that the 
increase in resistor internal energy is mainly going to be in the form of 
thermal energy.   This is just a way to characterize kinetic energy of the 
molecules of the material.  And kinetic energy just means that the atoms are in 
motion relative to each other, which can also be measured by the temperature of 
the device.


So, after a period of time with power applied to the resistor, it will heat up 
and contain a well defined number of joules of energy.  I realize that someone 
could chase down every last joule of energy in what ever form it takes, but 
this is a discussion to help simplify the concept for people wishing a better 
understanding of the principles so lets not bring in the secondary processes at 
this time.


Someone asked the question as to whether or not the heat within a system could 
be mostly extracted and I think we can shed light upon that issue.  First of 
all, if the external voltage source is removed and the system monitored for a 
very long time, it will be seen to radiate heat energy according to the 
Stefan-Boltzmann law until it ultimately has none left to radiate.  This energy 
is in the form of IR radiation initially and eventually changes over to lower 
frequency peak emissions until there is no more energy available.  Second, the 
resistor atoms slowly loose some of their energy of motion (kinetic), so they 
move slower.  There is no theoretical law that prevents us from capturing most 
the radiated energy by one method or the other with a super conductor antenna - 
energy conversion device.  Of course this would be impractical, but the 
principle is there.  The end result of this complicated activity would be that 
the heat energy has been recovered in some other form and none is lost so the 
conservation of energy prevails.


Now, it seems strange that we always speak in terms of two heat sinks when we 
talk of the efficiency of a heat engine.  If you think carefully about the 
processes at work, you will see that this is just a short hand way of saying 
that you begin with kinetic energy of the source driving your heat engine, 
which is measured by the temperature of the source, and end up by not 
extracting all of the kinetic energy.  The low temperature sink is the place 
where your engine allows the kinetic energy to escape that was not converted 
into mechanical work.  This is a simple way to think of the engine.  It's 
design is imperfect since the input kinetic energy of the source does not all 
get converted.  Thermal radiation can behave as a perfect heat engine, except 
that its output is in the form of electromagnetic radiation instead of 
mechanical work.


Always remember that energy is energy and that heat energy is just one of many 
types available.  Generally, there is a process that will convert one form into 
another, and some are easier to work with than others.  Raw heat is not the 
ideal energy form to work with, especially when compared to an easily converted 
type such as electrical energy.   The heat can be converted into electrical 
energy, but the process does not typically function without allowing some of 
the input heat energy to escape simple conversion.


And, if you convert electrical energy into mechanical work, such as raising a 
heavy load into the air with an electrical motor,  some of the input electrical 
energy will be converted into that less useful form of heat energy.  It is not 
lost, but harder to put into use after that process.



RE: [Vo]: Heat Engines Simplified

2013-02-08 Thread Jones Beene
 

 

From: David Roberson 

 

Always remember that energy is energy and that heat energy is just one of
many types available.  Generally, there is a process that will convert one
form into another, and some are easier to work with than others.  

 

This is not accurate. There is high grade energy - such as electrical and
low grade energy such as heat. 

 

There are always losses going from low-grade to high-grade, and only going
the other way can losses be avoided, but often there are losses that way as
well. 

 

There are NO circumstances where low grade energy can be converted to high
grade energy without substantial losses. 

 

With IR heat to electricity - which is the extreme case, the losses are
typically 95% and they are not avoidable, so to reduce them to 75% would be
miraculous - and in fact this has never been accomplished in practice.

 

Jones



Re: [Vo]: Heat Engines Simplified

2013-02-08 Thread David Roberson




-Original Message-
From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 8, 2013 1:06 pm
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Heat Engines Simplified



 
 

From:David Roberson 
 


Always remember that energy is energy and that heat energy is justone of many 
types available.  Generally, there is a process that willconvert one form into 
another, and some are easier to work with than others. 
 
This is not accurate.There is “high grade energy” – such as electrical and 
“lowgrade energy” such as heat. 


You can give it additional names and that is ok, but it is still energy.  Show 
where the conservation of energy does not apply and I will agree.  Do you 
consider radiation as low grade energy?  If so, what is the criteria that you 
use to define it?


I am not trying to say that heat energy is easy to convert into other forms, 
but I suggest that this is possible in theory.  That is the purpose of my post. 
 I want to help others understand the basic principles and not concentrate upon 
the complexities that make the subject so difficult to understand.  Help me 
take the mystery out of the subject.


 
There are always lossesgoing from low-grade to high-grade, and only going the 
other way can losses beavoided, but often there are losses that way as well. 


Losses?  Where is the energy going that is lost?  You should state that it is 
difficult to convert heat into electricity directly or other types of energy 
you refer to as high-grade.  This does not mean that it is impossible.  If you 
know of why it is impossible, please indicate the theory that makes that true.  
All of the energy can be converted into radiation given enough time.  Do you 
accept that as true?  And again, what is the criteria used to define high-grade 
versus low-grade energy?
 
There are NO circumstanceswhere low grade energy can be converted to high 
grade energy withoutsubstantial losses. 


Nothing has actually been lost.  That is a bad term to use that helps to 
complicate the understanding of others.  Why not rephrase it to say something 
like:  Only a relatively small amount of the heat energy from a source can be 
extracted by most processes and converted into electrical energy of other non 
heat types.  The energy remains that is not converted, but becomes more 
difficult to convert since the temperature of the material containing this 
energy source is lowered.
 
With IR heat toelectricity – which is the extreme case, the losses are 
typically 95% andthey are not avoidable, so to reduce them to 75% would be 
miraculous –and in fact this has never been accomplished in practice.


Why bring up the practical issues when theory is being discussed?  The use of 
the words not avoidable is improper unless you know of a proven theory that 
makes this happen.  I assume you are aware that radio waves can be captured by 
the right antenna structures and most of the energy collected.  Light emitted 
by an atom can be absorbed completely by a second atom without loss of energy.  
I would expect that IR radiation can be treated in a similar fashion to these 
other members of the family.


So, what is practical and what is possible are two different things.  I am 
discussing what is possible to help others understand the principles involved.


Please follow up on your thoughts if you have scientific proofs to support 
them.   I would love to explore this subject in detail.
 
Jones