Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
--- Robin One is forced to wonder where all the Oxygen went my guess would be that it combined with the Fe to form Fe2O3 (rust). They state that the iron is a catalyst - not a reactant. If true, a catalyst does not participate in the reaction. When Algae and bacteria use an iron or manganese catalyst to metabolize CO2, the oxygen is released as O2 but this requires solar photons of the correct wavelength to operate on the band gap of the nascent MnO in order to release the O from the catalyst (over-simplification). In effect, the catalyst is being rejuvenated. Anyway, is there reason to believe that this can happen only in life ? and that it is not relevant otherwise? ... it is possible that the sodium plays a significant role here, but it is not clear how. Of equal interest geologically, in the large trona beds where the soda is found and mined today, and which were once brackish lakes, what happened to the chlorine? ... that is, assuming that some of the sodium there originally came from NaCl and there is almost no Cl left in the soda when it is mined? Otherwise, are we to assume that some inland lakes somehow do not accumulate any NaCl at all? BTW - these beds of trona have been exposed to unshaded solar irradiation for millions of years. If there ever was a place where one could expect to find evidence of particles from solar wind which have accumulated over the eons, this is it. I guess if this reaction (soda -- phenol) were to be replicated, and IF it turned out that O2 were actually being released, then ... ... if an observer wanted to get real crazy (and if that observer had an appreciation of the possibilities of redundant ground state protium, it would be possible to suggest that that the O2 is being released due to the iron catalyst being renewed by the action of that mystery particle ... It would be interesting to know if there were any UV emissions coming from the hydro-thermal refluxing, wouldn't it? Jones
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
There is a deep geologic and natural mystery in that elbow of the periodic table where elements 17, 18, and 19 reside. Fred Sparber has often mentioned the various anomalies found here - wrt argon and potassium; but chlorine is an integral part of that same mystery, too. IMHO one of the best kept secrets of the Manhattan project, still not widely appreciated today, is the incredible photo-reactivity of chlorine. Anytime I have mentioned the so-called Kistiakowsky trigger in public, then a few hours latter, I tend to hear a faint buzzing sound in the sky nearby-- probably just the hissing of summer lawns ... Jones --- R C Macaulay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy Jones and Robin, NACL plays the key role in your observations simply because of it's abundance. A key clue to how salt was formed in such mass may be by studying potash as well as soda. In SE New Mexico there are deep potash mines between Hobbs and Artesia. To me these potash deposits are an enigma. They simply should not exist.. yet.. Richard
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
From R C Macaulay: Howdy Jones and Robin, NACL plays the key role in your observations simply because of it's abundance. A key clue to how salt was formed in such mass may be by studying potash as well as soda. In SE New Mexico there are deep potash mines between Hobbs and Artesia. To me these potash deposits are an enigma. They simply should not exist.. yet.. Richard Wasn't it stated not too long ago in VortexLand that potash is a principal ingredient in BLP's alleged new solid fuel process? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 17 May 2008 07:15:38 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] --- Robin One is forced to wonder where all the Oxygen went my guess would be that it combined with the Fe to form Fe2O3 (rust). They state that the iron is a catalyst - not a reactant. If true, a catalyst does not participate in the reaction. I suspect they got that wrong. Perhaps they were so excited by the formation of the phenol that they didn't notice the reduction in the quantity of Fe, particularly if the Fe2O3 (Fe3O4?) appeared as a coating on the outside of the Fe particles. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
Jones Beene wrote: --- Richard, Tell us... the next act in the drama... Well, it's no secret that if a mild thermo-chemical reaction can pull this off (unaided) in a simple warm Anyone ready to check-out Death Valley in the summer ? There is definitely a method to your madness Jones. I have frequently speculated that pipelines could bring ocean water in. Death Valley is long on solar energy. I've been reading a business plan involving trapping CO2 and incorporating it into various alcohols and plant oils which will be used as fuel. The process involves Fe and Cu salts. I've been unable to figure out how the process is supposed to work, but given the credentials of the principals, and the amount of venture capital requested, they clearly have one. FYI, they have a prototype reactor operating. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
For those who did not read the complete Kanzius/ Roy pdf file (recommended), on the burning of salt water - it is now available from Harti's site (has some nice images): http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get16 Given that there is a correlation between this thread and the Kanzius information- I am hopeful that some experimenter, who is already set-up to do it - IOW someone who is already irradiating salt water with 13.56 MHz as in the Kanzius paper, will try the same setup with baking soda instead of salt water, and then perhaps with both, in order to see if there is any enhancement. The strong spike which is seen at ~590 nm (the Na line) is interesting in the context of the photo-reactivity of chlorine. If there is a route to push such a system into overunity (which is doubtful and is NOT claimed) then there is an expedient approach - using a hybrid, closed system of mixed reactants- water, O2 and dissolved NaCl and NaHCO3 in a closed refluxing reactor, where the phenol produced is also burned and the photon emission is mirrored back to the reactor so that the chlorine is activated. What would be the ultimate source of OU -- in the *extraordinarily unlikely* event that it was seen? Hey - I've never balked at supplying a speculative answer, even in the face of extreme improbability- and have a good one for this scenario - but it will have to wait for now... Jones
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
Howdy Thomas, Do you have a link or name to this firm you referred to below? Richard Thomas wrote, I've been reading a business plan involving trapping CO2 and incorporating it into various alcohols and plant oils which will be used as fuel. The process involves Fe and Cu salts. I've been unable to figure out how the process is supposed to work, but given the credentials of the principals, and the amount of venture capital requested, they clearly have one. FYI, they have a prototype reactor operating.
[Vo]:Biomimicry redux
Hey Col. Cathcart and other vorticians, Are you ready for a major, major development in the field of baking ? Ha, here's the catch ... and it reads more like biomimicry reflux than redux. Begin with baking soda. Yup. Good-old sodium bicarbonate- NaHCO3- which is the natural salt found worldwide in vast desert deposits of soda ash or in the mineral natron or trona. Although it will not burn, and seems fully oxidized, that conclusion could be a bit hasty, due to new RD from China (RoC). BTW NaHCO3 is also a candidate mineral for CO2 capture (and in facilitating Algoil production) but that is another story (albeit the story which actually led to this posting). Often this mineral trona is found in dry lake beds- in places like Death Valley... but if you read on, the case can be made now that this desolate place is more like Life Valley in that in the numerous hot springs there, we find a mirror image of the way life may have begun on earth ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inyo_County%2C_California This spot in the West has enough of the stuff (trona) to supply the US demand for oil for centuries ... fonly (fonly = if only = ~Catch-22). How so? Next we must add-in the factor known as relfux (hydrothermal chemistry)... It all goes back to the basic class of carbohydrate chemicals called 'phenols' and the natural process known as 'hydrothermal chemistry' and the fact that phenols can be formed from soda directly in certain natural conditions !! (that is the new claim) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflux If you think about the implications, this is huge Four billion years ago, it now seems likely that life on earth (or the 'feedstock' for life) began from phenols and from derivative proteins which them self were first made naturally in hot springs from natron via the process of hydrothermal chemistry. Thus the biomimicry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol#Hydrothermal_chemistry BTW: Phenols -or more precisely: fuels easily derived from them, burn like diesel oil but are just as valuable for plastics and other products. Now down to the nitty-gritty. Here is the recent journal article (letter) of interest (from Taiwan): http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/orlef7/2007/9/i10/abs/ol070597o.html Hydrothermal Reactions from Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate to Phenol Tian, Yuan, et al. Now- you tell me- am I reading too much into the energy implication of this development ? Maybe. This is NEW RD- possibly groundbreaking- possibly even of Nobel caliber, and yet as of now NOT widely accepted (or even widely known among biochemists) in the USA -- (part of the 'not invented here' syndrome?). Even the authors do not seem to comprehend the implications. Anyway- If the article and experiment are accurate - and is soon duplicated, then this could be a MAJOR MAJOR development towards energy independence... in the end, it all gets back to 'supply-and-demand' right? And no one knew that M.O. better than a fictional opportunist ... speaking of which (Major Major): where is Joseph Heller when we need him? It's been 47 dry years since we have had reading material of that caliber ... which for some of us is a greater national disgrace than the anemic official response at DoE to the energy crisis (and the snubbing of LENR) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Major_Major_Major Happy Baking, Jones
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
Howdy Jones, Tiawan and phenols... a lot to digest for today, perhaps a small glass of water with a dash of bi-carb would help my digestion. You are going somewhere with this post and I am waiting with baited breath.. which my mother said was helped if I brushed my teeth with salt and soda. As I recall from my chem lab experiment gone horribly wrong when the soda compound pressure exceed the vessel's captive limits.. and went Ka-blooey!.. there is also a pressure component in producing phenol. Tell us. oh wizard.. the next act in the drama.. You are correct in your thesis that this discovery may be much grandeur than much we have hoped for in new energy thinking. Richard
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
--- Richard, Tell us... the next act in the drama... Well, it's no secret that if a mild thermo-chemical reaction can pull this off (unaided) in a simple warm refluxing situation, even if it is at a low yield-- then it is very reasonable to believe that single cell organisms (GM or natural) should be up to the task of doing the same thing more efficiently. GM in this case stands for genetic modification. There could be natural single-cell life already evolved to do this, even with the toxicity involved -- and if so, then it would likely be advantageous to hybridize that kind of bacteria to do the reaction as efficiently as possible (with or without solar input). There are plenty of thermophilic algae from hot springs and at ocean vents, with which to expand the gene pool. I haven't had time to look into this more deeply, so to speak, but in following the alternative-energy scene for the past twenty years, I have yet to see it mentioned (i.e. the concept of using bacteria/algae to convert soda into phenol). I would have guessed, prior to today, that it was totally impossible (and am not yet convinced that it is doable). BTW I am using the common term soda to mean any sodium+carbon based salt, primarily baking soda; and phenol to mean (very loosely) any oxygenated 6-ring based carbohydrate. The unspoken variable is cost. Soda is very much like sand - in that the cost of it is almost entirely in transportation, so it would be imperative to do the conversion process of soda into phenols at the site of the soda, even if the water must be trucked in. Even if the yield remains low at only a few percent (soda into phenol), the net cost could be extremely low. Needless to say, free and abundant heat is no problem in most of the very same places where natron is found. Water is the big limitation. Anyone ready to check-out Death Valley in the summer ? Jones
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
One of the better things about Vortex is looking back through the archives. Sometimes this can be embarrassing (i.e. consistent misspellings and other hasty-puddin' mistakes by moi) but at other times, one is struck by the clarity of old insight - most of which was never acted-upon (at least not to the degree which would happen in a perfect world) Such is the posting of Horace Heffner- mentioned in the carbon-transmutation thread: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg01517.html and the entire thread beginning here: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg01218.html I am still trying to sort out the variables involved in the several anomalies which have been mentioned, both chemical and (possibly) nuclear, but it goes without saying that alternative-carbon (to distinguish it from coal and/or petroleum carbon) with or without deuterium and LENR, may offer on of the most expedient solutions to solving at least a significant part of the energy crisis Jones
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 16 May 2008 07:45:06 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Now down to the nitty-gritty. Here is the recent journal article (letter) of interest (from Taiwan): http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/orlef7/2007/9/i10/abs/ol070597o.html Hydrothermal Reactions from Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate to Phenol Tian, Yuan, et al. Now- you tell me- am I reading too much into the energy implication of this development ? Maybe. [snip] One is forced to wonder where all the Oxygen went. Without having read the actual paper, my guess would be that it combined with the Fe to form Fe2O3 (rust). After all, something had to reduce the CO2 in bicarbonate. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
- Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 16 May 2008 07:45:06 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Now down to the nitty-gritty. Here is the recent journal article (letter) of interest (from Taiwan): http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/orlef7/2007/9/i10/abs/ol070597o.html Hydrothermal Reactions from Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate to Phenol Tian, Yuan, et al. Now- you tell me- am I reading too much into the energy implication of this development ? Maybe. [snip] One is forced to wonder where all the Oxygen went. Without having read the actual paper, my guess would be that it combined with the Fe to form Fe2O3 (rust). After all, something had to reduce the CO2 in bicarbonate. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1446 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 AM
Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux
- Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Biomimicry redux In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 16 May 2008 07:45:06 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] Now down to the nitty-gritty. Here is the recent journal article (letter) of interest (from Taiwan): http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/orlef7/2007/9/i10/abs/ol070597o.html Hydrothermal Reactions from Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate to Phenol Tian, Yuan, et al. Now- you tell me- am I reading too much into the energy implication of this development ? Maybe. [snip] One is forced to wonder where all the Oxygen went. Without having read the actual paper, my guess would be that it combined with the Fe to form Fe2O3 (rust). After all, something had to reduce the CO2 in bicarbonate. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1446 - Release Date: 5/16/2008 7:42 AM
