Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Axil Axil]

Analysis by germanium gamma detectors revealed presence of 100 billion
atoms of Ag, Pd, Rh, and (one) Ru isotopes having ratios unlike those from
bombardment by high-energy deuteron or proton beams.

http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?1124-EPRI-Skeptic-Finds-Heavy-Element-Transmutation-Cold-Fusion-Experiment!-Hidden-3-years
.

Science should be done on the basis of experimental results.


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:48 AM, Axil Axil  wrote:

> http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CirilloDtransmutat.pdf
>
>
> Transmutation of metal at low energy in a confined plasma in water
> *
>
> Conclusions
> *
>
> The plasma is able to initiate transmutation reactions. Future studies are
> underway to understand the mechanism of these reactions. We propose that
> these reactions are the main source of measured excess energy.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Eric Walker wrote:
>
>> Twelve days ago I wrote:
>>
>>  Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the
>>> impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side
>>> reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case.
>>>
>>
>> This was in connection with a slide presented by Michael McKubre at the
>> meeting in Brussels convened to take a look at work on the Fleischmann and
>> Pons effect.  The slide summarized a replication by SRI of an experiment by
>> Arata and Zhang using a unique "DS" cathode, where a palladium outer shell
>> was filled with palladium black and then the whole thing electrolyzed in
>> LiOD and LiOH.  I thought the slide was very interesting because it
>> indicated that SRI had measured 10^15 atoms of tritium, and I wondered
>> whether it was the main daughter in that reaction.
>>
>> I have since read more about that replication in an appendix to a review
>> paper that was prepared for the U.S. Department of Energy review in 2004.
>>  It seems the 10^15 atoms of tritium were generated over a period of 86
>> days.  The amount was very significant -- the original amount was about
>> 0.05 percent of the final amount.  But the final amount was not at a level
>> to produce the excess heat SRI saw, and it was not even at a level to be
>> measured in their calorimeter.  In that replication, they did not find the
>> daughter product that was causing the heat; they found no 4He, and the 3He
>> was at levels and in a spatial distribution consistent with tritium decay.
>>  So the source of the excess heat in that replication was unaccounted for.
>>
>> The appendix to the DoE paper mentions three possible sources of the
>> excess heat, and the last one is that the heat was produced by 4He
>> formation at the surface of the cathode, rather than within it, and, as a
>> consequence, the 4He vented into the atmosphere.  This possibility is an
>> interesting one, because it is consistent with the hypothesis that the
>> tritium was also produced at the cathode surface and then migrated (as
>> hydrogen can be expected to) into the cathode under the voltage that was
>> applied during the electrolysis.  In this scenario, one source of the
>> tritium would be from 6Li(d,t)5Li reactions from prompt d's shooting into
>> the electrolyte.  (Ed has mentioned another possibility -- a d+e+p
>> reaction.)
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Axil Axil]

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CirilloDtransmutat.pdf


Transmutation of metal at low energy in a confined plasma in water
*

Conclusions
*

The plasma is able to initiate transmutation reactions. Future studies are
underway to understand the mechanism of these reactions. We propose that
these reactions are the main source of measured excess energy.






On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> Twelve days ago I wrote:
>
> Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the
>> impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side
>> reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case.
>>
>
> This was in connection with a slide presented by Michael McKubre at the
> meeting in Brussels convened to take a look at work on the Fleischmann and
> Pons effect.  The slide summarized a replication by SRI of an experiment by
> Arata and Zhang using a unique "DS" cathode, where a palladium outer shell
> was filled with palladium black and then the whole thing electrolyzed in
> LiOD and LiOH.  I thought the slide was very interesting because it
> indicated that SRI had measured 10^15 atoms of tritium, and I wondered
> whether it was the main daughter in that reaction.
>
> I have since read more about that replication in an appendix to a review
> paper that was prepared for the U.S. Department of Energy review in 2004.
>  It seems the 10^15 atoms of tritium were generated over a period of 86
> days.  The amount was very significant -- the original amount was about
> 0.05 percent of the final amount.  But the final amount was not at a level
> to produce the excess heat SRI saw, and it was not even at a level to be
> measured in their calorimeter.  In that replication, they did not find the
> daughter product that was causing the heat; they found no 4He, and the 3He
> was at levels and in a spatial distribution consistent with tritium decay.
>  So the source of the excess heat in that replication was unaccounted for.
>
> The appendix to the DoE paper mentions three possible sources of the
> excess heat, and the last one is that the heat was produced by 4He
> formation at the surface of the cathode, rather than within it, and, as a
> consequence, the 4He vented into the atmosphere.  This possibility is an
> interesting one, because it is consistent with the hypothesis that the
> tritium was also produced at the cathode surface and then migrated (as
> hydrogen can be expected to) into the cathode under the voltage that was
> applied during the electrolysis.  In this scenario, one source of the
> tritium would be from 6Li(d,t)5Li reactions from prompt d's shooting into
> the electrolyte.  (Ed has mentioned another possibility -- a d+e+p
> reaction.)
>
> Eric
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

Twelve days ago I wrote:

Presumably the experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the
> impression that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side
> reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case.
>

This was in connection with a slide presented by Michael McKubre at the
meeting in Brussels convened to take a look at work on the Fleischmann and
Pons effect.  The slide summarized a replication by SRI of an experiment by
Arata and Zhang using a unique "DS" cathode, where a palladium outer shell
was filled with palladium black and then the whole thing electrolyzed in
LiOD and LiOH.  I thought the slide was very interesting because it
indicated that SRI had measured 10^15 atoms of tritium, and I wondered
whether it was the main daughter in that reaction.

I have since read more about that replication in an appendix to a review
paper that was prepared for the U.S. Department of Energy review in 2004.
 It seems the 10^15 atoms of tritium were generated over a period of 86
days.  The amount was very significant -- the original amount was about
0.05 percent of the final amount.  But the final amount was not at a level
to produce the excess heat SRI saw, and it was not even at a level to be
measured in their calorimeter.  In that replication, they did not find the
daughter product that was causing the heat; they found no 4He, and the 3He
was at levels and in a spatial distribution consistent with tritium decay.
 So the source of the excess heat in that replication was unaccounted for.

The appendix to the DoE paper mentions three possible sources of the excess
heat, and the last one is that the heat was produced by 4He formation at
the surface of the cathode, rather than within it, and, as a consequence,
the 4He vented into the atmosphere.  This possibility is an interesting
one, because it is consistent with the hypothesis that the tritium was also
produced at the cathode surface and then migrated (as hydrogen can be
expected to) into the cathode under the voltage that was applied during the
electrolysis.  In this scenario, one source of the tritium would be from
6Li(d,t)5Li reactions from prompt d's shooting into the electrolyte.  (Ed
has mentioned another possibility -- a d+e+p reaction.)

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[mixent]

In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:03:19 -0600:
Hi Ed,
[snip]

BTW, next time you detect T, check the half-life. ;)

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[mixent]

In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:03:19 -0600:
Hi Ed,
[snip]
>Instead, I have decided  
>to use my time testing the ideas. 

An excellent idea.


>If the tests are successful, then we  
>can talk again.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 7:58 PM, Edmund Storms wrote:

Very funny, Eric. If I have, it's not for the lack of looking.
>
> Ed
>

I joke, but I really do appreciate the sources and will enjoy reading them.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Edmund Storms]

Very funny, Eric. If I have, it's not for the lack of looking.

Ed

On Jun 18, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Eric Walker wrote:

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Edmund Storms  
 wrote:


Eric, Tom Passel is not the only source of information. If you want  
to make a useful conclusion, I suggest you read the following papers  
where tritium was detected.


Ed

1.Bertalot, L., et al. Analysis of tritium and heat  
excess in electrochemical cells with Pd cathodes. in Second Annual  
Conference on Cold Fusion, "The Science of Cold Fusion". 1991. Como,  
Italy: Societa Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 3.



These will be interesting to read.  I hope you haven't left anything  
out.


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:08 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

Eric, Tom Passel is not the only source of information. If you want to make
> a useful conclusion, I suggest you read the following papers where tritium
> was detected.
>
> Ed
>
> 1.Bertalot, L., et al. *Analysis of tritium and heat excess
> in electrochemical cells with Pd cathodes*. in *Second Annual Conference
> on Cold Fusion, "The Science of Cold Fusion"*. 1991. Como, Italy: Societa
> Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 3.
>

These will be interesting to read.  I hope you haven't left anything out.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Edmund Storms]

Paul, I have the same speculation as I have said and published many  
times based on a comprehensive model.  I have predicted that the e-Cat  
does not make energy by the Ni+p=Cu reaction, but by formation of  
deuterium.  I have asked often for tests be made for this nuclear  
product. So far, there has been no response.


Ed
On Jun 18, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Paul Breed wrote:


Ed,
>4.) When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown

Any speculation?
My speculation would be D




On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Edmund Storms  
 wrote:
Robin, you need to acknowledge what actually is observed rather than  
what you think should happen.  We are witnessing a novel process  
that has several basic characteristics, which are:


1. Hydrogen isotopes can come together in a material to make a  
fusion product without emitting the nuclear energy as energetic  
particles.

2. When the isotopes are d, the nuclear product is 4He.
3. When the isotopes are a mixture of H and D, the nuclear product  
is tritium.

4. When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown.
5. When the conditions are suitable for these fusion reactions to  
occur, the hydrogen isotope can add to a heavy nucleus to cause  
transmutation without emission of energetic particles.


All of these reactions require a very unique condition that is able  
to overcome the Coulomb barrier without application of energy and  
release the nuclear energy in small units. This result is in direct  
contrast to the hot fusion process.


You need to ask what process can cause these observed results.  Of  
course, NO process can be imagined that could not be rejected for  
some reason. That is why the claims are not generally accepted.  
Nevertheless, the behavior has now been well established as real and  
needs to be explained.  Present attempts either ignore most observed  
behavior or use unsupported assumptions and reach conclusions that  
can not be tested. Consequently, discussing these ideas is a waste  
of time.  Nevertheless, the process needs to be explained.


I have proposed a process that is consistent with ALL the observed  
behavior. I know this because I have actually read most of the  
published literature.  In addition, I predict behavior that is  
expected and can be tested. I can also describe exactly how the e- 
Cat works based on the model and how it can be improved.  I will  
discuss this at ICCF-18.  Nevertheless, I find very little interest  
exists in discussing these ideas here and great difficultly even  
getting them published in conventional journals. Consequently, I  
have not shown all the evidence or the details of the process.   
Instead, I have decided to use my time testing the ideas. If the  
tests are successful, then we can talk again.


Ed



On Jun 17, 2013, at 8:35 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:41:09 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium?  
This is

the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.

The ONLY way this reaction will happen is if the electron first  
combines with
one of the two nuclei to form either one or two neutrons which then  
combine(s)
with the other nucleus to form T (WL IOW). A concurrent fusion of  
all three
particles will lead to 3He not T, because the reaction to 3He is a  
strong force
reaction, and happens "instantaneously", whereas the reaction to T  
would be a
weak force reaction if it happened at all, which it doesn't because  
the reverse

weak force reaction is what happens in nature (i.e. T decays the He3).
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Paul Breed]

Ed,
>4.) When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown

Any speculation?
My speculation would be D




On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:03 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

> Robin, you need to acknowledge what actually is observed rather than what
> you think should happen.  We are witnessing a novel process that has
> several basic characteristics, which are:
>
> 1. Hydrogen isotopes can come together in a material to make a fusion
> product without emitting the nuclear energy as energetic particles.
> 2. When the isotopes are d, the nuclear product is 4He.
> 3. When the isotopes are a mixture of H and D, the nuclear product is
> tritium.
> 4. When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown.
> 5. When the conditions are suitable for these fusion reactions to occur,
> the hydrogen isotope can add to a heavy nucleus to cause transmutation
> without emission of energetic particles.
>
> All of these reactions require a very unique condition that is able to
> overcome the Coulomb barrier without application of energy and release the
> nuclear energy in small units. This result is in direct contrast to the hot
> fusion process.
>
> You need to ask what process can cause these observed results.  Of course,
> NO process can be imagined that could not be rejected for some reason. That
> is why the claims are not generally accepted. Nevertheless, the behavior
> has now been well established as real and needs to be explained.  Present
> attempts either ignore most observed behavior or use unsupported
> assumptions and reach conclusions that can not be tested. Consequently,
> discussing these ideas is a waste of time.  Nevertheless, the process needs
> to be explained.
>
> I have proposed a process that is consistent with ALL the observed
> behavior. I know this because I have actually read most of the published
> literature.  In addition, I predict behavior that is expected and can be
> tested. I can also describe exactly how the e-Cat works based on the model
> and how it can be improved.  I will discuss this at ICCF-18.  Nevertheless,
> I find very little interest exists in discussing these ideas here and great
> difficultly even getting them published in conventional journals.
> Consequently, I have not shown all the evidence or the details of the
> process.  Instead, I have decided to use my time testing the ideas. If the
> tests are successful, then we can talk again.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2013, at 8:35 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:
>
>  In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:41:09 -0700:
>> Hi,
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is
>>> the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.
>>>
>>
>> The ONLY way this reaction will happen is if the electron first combines
>> with
>> one of the two nuclei to form either one or two neutrons which then
>> combine(s)
>> with the other nucleus to form T (WL IOW). A concurrent fusion of all
>> three
>> particles will lead to 3He not T, because the reaction to 3He is a strong
>> force
>> reaction, and happens "instantaneously", whereas the reaction to T would
>> be a
>> weak force reaction if it happened at all, which it doesn't because the
>> reverse
>> weak force reaction is what happens in nature (i.e. T decays the He3).
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>> http://rvanspaa.freehostia.**com/project.html
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Edmund Storms]

Eric, Tom Passel is not the only source of information. If you want to  
make a useful conclusion, I suggest you read the following papers  
where tritium was detected.


Ed

1.Bertalot, L., et al. Analysis of tritium and heat excess  
in electrochemical cells with Pd cathodes. in Second Annual Conference  
on Cold Fusion, "The Science of Cold Fusion". 1991. Como, Italy:  
Societa Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 3.


2. Chien, C.-C., et al., On an electrode producing massive  
quantities of tritium and helium. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1992. 338: p.  
189-212.


3.Claytor, T.N., et al. Tritium and neutron measurements  
of a solid state cell. in NSF/EPRI Workshop on Anomalous Effects in  
Deuterated Materials. 1989. Washington, DC: LA-UR-89-39-46. p.


4.Claytor, T.N., et al. Tritium production from palladium  
alloys. in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998.  
Vancouver, Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT. p. 88-93.


5.Fleischmann, M., S. Pons, and M. Hawkins,  
Electrochemically induced nuclear fusion of deuterium. J. Electroanal.  
Chem., 1989. 261: p. 301-308 and errata in Vol. 263, 187-188.


6. Gozzi, D., et al. First results from a ten electrolytic  
cells experiment. in Anomalous Nuclear Effects in Deuterium/Solid  
Systems, "AIP Conference Proceedings 228". 1990. Brigham Young Univ.,  
Provo, UT: American Institute of Physics, New York. p. 481.


7. Gozzi, D., et al., Nuclear and thermal effects during  
electrolytic reduction of deuterium at palladium cathode. J. Fusion  
Energy, 1990. 9(3): p. 241.


8.Guruswamy, S. and M.E. Wadsworth. Metallurgical Aspects  
in Cold Fusion Experiments. in The First Annual Conference on Cold  
Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah:  
National Cold Fusion Institute. p. 314.


9. Itoh, T., et al. Observation of nuclear products under  
vacuum conditions from deuterated palladium with high loading ratio.  
in 5th International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1995. Monte-Carlo,  
Monaco: IMRA Europe, Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France. p. 189.


10.Iyengar, P.K. Cold fusion results in BARC experiments.  
in Fifth International Conf. on Emerging Nucl. Energy Ststems. 1989.  
Karlsruhe, Germany. p.


11.Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan, BARC studies in cold  
fusion. 1989, BARC, India: Bombay.


12.Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. Overview of BARC  
Studies in Cold Fusion. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion.  
1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National  
Cold Fusion Institute. p. 62.


13.Iyengar, P.K., et al., Bhabha Atomic Research Centre  
studies on cold fusion. Fusion Technol., 1990. 18: p. 32.


14.Matsumoto, O., et al. Detection of neutron and tritium  
during electrolysis of D2SO4-D2O solution. in Third International  
Conference on Cold Fusion, "Frontiers of Cold Fusion". 1992. Nagoya  
Japan: Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan. p. 495.


15.Notoya, R. Alkali-hydrogen cold fusion accompanied by  
tritium production on nickel. in Fourth International Conference on  
Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power Research Institute  
3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 1.


16.Notoya, R., Y. Noya, and T. Ohnishi, Tritium generation  
and large excess heat evolution by electrolysis in light and heavy  
water-potassium carbonate solutions with nickel electrodes. Fusion  
Technol., 1994. 26: p. 179.


17.Notoya, R., Alkali-hydrogen cold fusion accompanied by  
tritium production on nickel. Trans. Fusion Technol., 1994. 26(#4T):  
p. 205-208.


18.Packham, N.J.C., et al., Production of tritium from D2O  
electrolysis at a palladium cathode. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1989. 270:  
p. 451.


19.Ramamurthy, H., et al. Further studies on excess heat  
generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. in Fourth International  
Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power  
Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 15.


20.   Ray, M.K.S., et al., The Fleischmann-Pons phenomenon - a  
different perspective. Fusion Technol., 1992. 22: p. 395.


21.Sankaranarayanan, M., et al. Investigation of low level  
tritium generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. in Fourth  
International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric  
Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 3.


22.Sankaranarayanan, T.K., et al., Investigation of low- 
level tritium generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. Fusion  
Technol., 1996. 30: p. 349.


23.Sánchez, C., et al., Nuclear products detection during  
electrolysis of heavy water with titanium and platinum electrodes.  
Solid State Commun., 1989. 71: p. 1039.


24.Sánchez, C., et al. Cold fusion during electrolysis 

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Edmund Storms]

Robin, you need to acknowledge what actually is observed rather than  
what you think should happen.  We are witnessing a novel process that  
has several basic characteristics, which are:


1. Hydrogen isotopes can come together in a material to make a fusion  
product without emitting the nuclear energy as energetic particles.

2. When the isotopes are d, the nuclear product is 4He.
3. When the isotopes are a mixture of H and D, the nuclear product is  
tritium.

4. When the isotopes are H, the nuclear product is still unknown.
5. When the conditions are suitable for these fusion reactions to  
occur, the hydrogen isotope can add to a heavy nucleus to cause  
transmutation without emission of energetic particles.


All of these reactions require a very unique condition that is able to  
overcome the Coulomb barrier without application of energy and release  
the nuclear energy in small units. This result is in direct contrast  
to the hot fusion process.


You need to ask what process can cause these observed results.  Of  
course, NO process can be imagined that could not be rejected for some  
reason. That is why the claims are not generally accepted.  
Nevertheless, the behavior has now been well established as real and  
needs to be explained.  Present attempts either ignore most observed  
behavior or use unsupported assumptions and reach conclusions that can  
not be tested. Consequently, discussing these ideas is a waste of  
time.  Nevertheless, the process needs to be explained.


I have proposed a process that is consistent with ALL the observed  
behavior. I know this because I have actually read most of the  
published literature.  In addition, I predict behavior that is  
expected and can be tested. I can also describe exactly how the e-Cat  
works based on the model and how it can be improved.  I will discuss  
this at ICCF-18.  Nevertheless, I find very little interest exists in  
discussing these ideas here and great difficultly even getting them  
published in conventional journals. Consequently, I have not shown all  
the evidence or the details of the process.  Instead, I have decided  
to use my time testing the ideas. If the tests are successful, then we  
can talk again.


Ed


On Jun 17, 2013, at 8:35 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:


In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:41:09 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium?  
This is

the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.


The ONLY way this reaction will happen is if the electron first  
combines with
one of the two nuclei to form either one or two neutrons which then  
combine(s)
with the other nucleus to form T (WL IOW). A concurrent fusion of  
all three
particles will lead to 3He not T, because the reaction to 3He is a  
strong force
reaction, and happens "instantaneously", whereas the reaction to T  
would be a
weak force reaction if it happened at all, which it doesn't because  
the reverse

weak force reaction is what happens in nature (i.e. T decays the He3).
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Edmund Storms wrote:

Tritium is made by gas discharge and gas loading where no lithium or Na is
> present. The rate is sensitive to the H/D ratio and to the concentration of
> hydrogen isotope in the material.
>

According to Thomas Passell, lithium was present as an impurity in nearly
all palladium samples he assayed using TOF-SIMS in connection with a 2003
study [1].  Also interesting is the fact that the 7Li/6Li ratios were
highly skewed towards 7Li in some assays.  So I don't think lithium can be
ruled out as a source of tritium on the basis of gas discharge rather than
LiOD or LiOH electrolysis.  The H/D ratio would also be pertinent to
whether the 6Li(d,t)5Li reaction was taking place.

Eric


[1]
http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/4effort/5nuclear/PassellTransmutation.pdf

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[mixent]

In reply to  Eric Walker's message of Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:41:09 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is
> the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.

The ONLY way this reaction will happen is if the electron first combines with
one of the two nuclei to form either one or two neutrons which then combine(s)
with the other nucleus to form T (WL IOW). A concurrent fusion of all three
particles will lead to 3He not T, because the reaction to 3He is a strong force
reaction, and happens "instantaneously", whereas the reaction to T would be a
weak force reaction if it happened at all, which it doesn't because the reverse
weak force reaction is what happens in nature (i.e. T decays the He3).
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Edmund Storms]

Tritium is made by gas discharge and gas loading where no lithium or  
Na is present. The rate is sensitive to the H/D ratio and to the  
concentration of hydrogen isotope in the material.


Ed
On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:41 PM, Eric Walker wrote:

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Edmund Storms  
 wrote:


Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium?  
This is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.


Also, just to make sure I understand your position -- you're  
understanding is that the lithium in the electrolyte is a secondary  
detail, and that, barring some unforeseen effect, NaOD and NaOH  
would have led to the same yield of tritium?


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is
> the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.
>

Also, just to make sure I understand your position -- you're understanding
is that the lithium in the electrolyte is a secondary detail, and that,
barring some unforeseen effect, NaOD and NaOH would have led to the same
yield of tritium?

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Axil Axil]

Reference:



“Laser-induced synthesis and decay of Tritium under exposure of solid targets
in heavy water"



http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0830



how about the reaction that has been experimentally demonstrated in the
referenced paper?



electron + deuterium+ -> dinuetron + neutrino



dineutron -> deutrerium + electron + neutrino



deuterium + dinuetron  ->  tritium + neutron + 3.5MeV








On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Alan Fletcher  wrote:

> > From: "Edmund Storms" 
> > Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:34:44 AM
>
> > Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This
> > is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.
>
> That supports your earlier reply to my questions:
>
> H-e-(H-e-H)-e-H-e  ==>   H-e-(D)-e-H-e-H
>
> I suggested that poisoned the chain -- you said it probably just moved its
> activity to a higher start-temperature.
>
> Then we get
>
> -e-H-(D-e-H)-e-H-e-H-  ==>  -e-H-e-(t)-e-H-e- ...
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Alan Fletcher]

> From: "Edmund Storms" 
> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 6:34:44 AM

> Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This
> is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.

That supports your earlier reply to my questions:

H-e-(H-e-H)-e-H-e  ==>   H-e-(D)-e-H-e-H

I suggested that poisoned the chain -- you said it probably just moved its 
activity to a higher start-temperature.

Then we get 

-e-H-(D-e-H)-e-H-e-H-  ==>  -e-H-e-(t)-e-H-e- ...

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Edmund Storms wrote:

Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This is
> the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.
>

It wasn't intentional.  I'll take a look at those papers.  (The Fusion
Science and Technology one will take a little while.)

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Edmund Storms]

Eric, why do you ignore the obvious reaction of D-e-H = tritium? This  
is the ONLY reaction consistent with all observations.  The papers you  
should read are:


1. Clarke, B.W., et al., Search for 3He and 4He in Arata-style  
palladium cathodes II: Evidence for tritium production. Fusion Sci. &  
Technol., 2001. 40: p. 152-167.


2.McKubre, M.C.H., et al. Progress towards replication. in  
The 9th International Conference on Cold Fusion, Condensed Matter  
Nuclear Science. 2002. Tsinghua Univ., Beijing, China: Tsinghua Univ.  
Press. p. 241.


3.McKubre, M.C. and F. Tanzella, Cold Fusion, LENR, CMNS,  
FPE: One Perspective on the State of the Science Based on Measurements  
Made at SRI. J. Cond. Matter Nucl. Sci., 2011. 4: p. 32-44.






Ed

On Jun 14, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Eric Walker wrote:

I just looked into some details concerning the scenario presented in  
slide 9 of Michael McKubre's recent presentation in Brussels to get  
a sense of what might be causing the tritium they were seeing.


The slide summarizes an Arata/Zhang replication.  In their  
replication, they saw excess heat and, apparently, primarily  
tritium.  This is unusual, because when tritium has been present in  
many experiments, it has usually been found only in small amounts,  
suggesting that it is the result of some kind of side reaction.  But  
the slide indicates that they saw 2-5 * 10^15 atoms.  If you  
consider that 1 W excess heat from the generation of 4He from d+d  
(however this happens) will yield on the order of 10^11 atoms, it is  
apparent that 10^15 atoms is a lot of tritium.  Presumably the  
experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression  
that the tritium is more than simply the result of some side  
reaction, and it looks like the main daughter in this case.


The possibility of excess heat arising primarily from tritium  
generation poses some interesting questions:  What were some  
candidate exothermic reactions that might produce the tritium? Is  
some kind of neutron capture required to explain the result? What  
else can be gleaned from the slide?


For the quick analysis that follows, here are relevant details:
The experiment involved palladium black and LiOD electrolyte in an  
electrolytic setup.

They saw excess heat from LiOD but not LiOH.
They saw no 4He.
They saw no 3He above what can be expected from the decay of  
tritium. This suggests that the 3He was not a daughter product of  
whatever reaction was causing the heat.
The 3He they saw diffused from a source within the hollow cathode,  
which had the palladium black within in it.  I think palladium black  
is in the form of powder.
After looking at a number of reactions, I found only two exothermic  
reactions that produce tritium with precursors that would have been  
present:

6Li + d → t + 5Li + 594 keV
3He + n → p + t + 1.27 MeV
I saw no other reactions involving stable isotopes of H, Li, O, or  
Pd that were exothermic, although it is possible the heat was  
generated by a reaction I missed or by one involving a different  
element.  At a minimum it seems that deuterium was needed, because  
they saw excess heat with LiOD and not LiOH.


Assuming for the moment that the reaction was one of these two,  
neutron capture cannot be ruled out, but neither is it necessary.   
If the 3He really was a byproduct of tritium decay, then neutron  
capture would appear to be unlikely as the primary source of heat in  
this instance, leaving the 6Li+d reaction.  Another reason the 3He+n  
reaction seems unlikely as the primary source of heat is that it  
does not involve deuterium.


Since 6Li is 7 percent of naturally occurring lithium, the amount of  
if that will have been present in the electrolyte is non- 
negligible.  But it's not clear that it would make it into the  
hollow cathode, where the tritium diffused from; perhaps it was able  
to enter the cathode through a crack in a ligation that was used to  
seal in the palladium black.  Another possibility is that tritium  
was generated at the exterior of the cathode and then migrated  
through the cathode into the center, where palladium black was.  In  
this case the reaction would have been in the electrolyte or at the  
interface between the exterior of the cathode and the electrolyte.  
If this is what happened, it is not clear what would have been  
driving the 6Li(d,t)5Li reaction. Perhaps there were d's shooting  
out into the electrolyte sufficiently fast for this purpose.  I am  
not sure what the cross section for this reaction is, which could  
tell us how fast the d's would need to be going.


To summarize some interesting details:
The possibility of tritium as the main daughter product giving rise  
to excess heat is unusual and is worth thinking about.
It looks like the tritium and excess heat could be arising in this  
case from reactions with the electrolyte that involve lithium and  
deuterium.
Alternatively, neutrons from an 

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[James Bowery]

For those of us who are rational about experimental results, this is bad
news since it is not news that LENR is a real phenomenon -- but large scale
tritium production -- a radioactive product renders the process subject to
government control hence political control.


On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Eric Walker  wrote:

> I just looked into some details concerning the scenario presented in slide
> 9 of Michael McKubre's recent presentation in Brussels to get a sense of
> what might be causing the tritium they were seeing.
>
> The slide summarizes an Arata/Zhang replication.  In their replication,
> they saw excess heat and, apparently, primarily tritium.  This is unusual,
> because when tritium has been present in many experiments, it has usually
> been found only in small amounts, suggesting that it is the result of some
> kind of side reaction.  But the slide indicates that they saw 2-5 * 10^15
> atoms.  If you consider that 1 W excess heat from the generation of 4He
> from d+d (however this happens) will yield on the order of 10^11 atoms, it
> is apparent that 10^15 atoms is a lot of tritium.  Presumably the
> experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression that
> the tritium is more than simply the result of some side reaction, and it
> looks like the main daughter in this case.
>
> The possibility of excess heat arising primarily from tritium generation
> poses some interesting questions:  What were some candidate exothermic
> reactions that might produce the tritium? Is some kind of neutron capture
> required to explain the result? What else can be gleaned from the slide?
>
> For the quick analysis that follows, here are relevant details:
>
>- The experiment involved palladium black and LiOD electrolyte in an
>electrolytic setup.
>- They saw excess heat from LiOD but not LiOH.
>- They saw no 4He.
>- They saw no 3He above what can be expected from the decay of
>tritium. This suggests that the 3He was not a daughter product of whatever
>reaction was causing the heat.
>- The 3He they saw diffused from a source within the hollow cathode,
>which had the palladium black within in it.  I think palladium black is in
>the form of powder.
>
> After looking at a number of reactions, I found only two exothermic
> reactions that produce tritium with precursors that would have been present:
>
>- 6Li + d → t + 5Li + 594 keV
>-
>- 3He + n → p + t + 1.27 MeV
>
> I saw no other reactions involving stable isotopes of H, Li, O, or Pd that
> were exothermic, although it is possible the heat was generated by a
> reaction I missed or by one involving a different element.  At a minimum it
> seems that deuterium was needed, because they saw excess heat with LiOD and
> not LiOH.
>
> Assuming for the moment that the reaction was one of these two, neutron
> capture cannot be ruled out, but neither is it necessary.  If the 3He
> really was a byproduct of tritium decay, then neutron capture would appear
> to be unlikely as the primary source of heat in this instance, leaving the
> 6Li+d reaction.  Another reason the 3He+n reaction seems unlikely as the
> primary source of heat is that it does not involve deuterium.
>
> Since 6Li is 7 percent of naturally occurring lithium, the amount of if
> that will have been present in the electrolyte is non-negligible.  But it's
> not clear that it would make it into the hollow cathode, where the tritium
> diffused from; perhaps it was able to enter the cathode through a crack in
> a ligation that was used to seal in the palladium black.  Another
> possibility is that tritium was generated at the exterior of the cathode
> and then migrated through the cathode into the center, where palladium
> black was.  In this case the reaction would have been in the electrolyte or
> at the interface between the exterior of the cathode and the electrolyte.
> If this is what happened, it is not clear what would have been driving the
> 6Li(d,t)5Li reaction. Perhaps there were d's shooting out into the
> electrolyte sufficiently fast for this purpose.  I am not sure what the
> cross section for this reaction is, which could tell us how fast the d's
> would need to be going.
>
> To summarize some interesting details:
>
>- The possibility of tritium as the main daughter product giving rise
>to excess heat is unusual and is worth thinking about.
>- It looks like the tritium and excess heat could be arising in this
>case from reactions with the electrolyte that involve lithium and 
> deuterium.
>- Alternatively, neutrons from an unknown source could be causing the
>tritium and excess heat by way of 3He(n,p)t reactions, but if that is the
>case, you would need a way to get neutrons from the presence of LiOD and
>not LiOH, and you would need the presence of 3He prior to that of the
>tritium.
>- If the lithium in the electrolyte is involved, it seems like you
>would need fast particles to keep thing

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

I just looked into some details concerning the scenario presented in slide
9 of Michael McKubre's recent presentation in Brussels to get a sense of
what might be causing the tritium they were seeing.

The slide summarizes an Arata/Zhang replication.  In their replication,
they saw excess heat and, apparently, primarily tritium.  This is unusual,
because when tritium has been present in many experiments, it has usually
been found only in small amounts, suggesting that it is the result of some
kind of side reaction.  But the slide indicates that they saw 2-5 * 10^15
atoms.  If you consider that 1 W excess heat from the generation of 4He
from d+d (however this happens) will yield on the order of 10^11 atoms, it
is apparent that 10^15 atoms is a lot of tritium.  Presumably the
experiment ran for a while, but nonetheless one gets the impression that
the tritium is more than simply the result of some side reaction, and it
looks like the main daughter in this case.

The possibility of excess heat arising primarily from tritium generation
poses some interesting questions:  What were some candidate exothermic
reactions that might produce the tritium? Is some kind of neutron capture
required to explain the result? What else can be gleaned from the slide?

For the quick analysis that follows, here are relevant details:

   - The experiment involved palladium black and LiOD electrolyte in an
   electrolytic setup.
   - They saw excess heat from LiOD but not LiOH.
   - They saw no 4He.
   - They saw no 3He above what can be expected from the decay of tritium.
   This suggests that the 3He was not a daughter product of whatever reaction
   was causing the heat.
   - The 3He they saw diffused from a source within the hollow cathode,
   which had the palladium black within in it.  I think palladium black is in
   the form of powder.

After looking at a number of reactions, I found only two exothermic
reactions that produce tritium with precursors that would have been present:

   - 6Li + d → t + 5Li + 594 keV
   -
   - 3He + n → p + t + 1.27 MeV

I saw no other reactions involving stable isotopes of H, Li, O, or Pd that
were exothermic, although it is possible the heat was generated by a
reaction I missed or by one involving a different element.  At a minimum it
seems that deuterium was needed, because they saw excess heat with LiOD and
not LiOH.

Assuming for the moment that the reaction was one of these two, neutron
capture cannot be ruled out, but neither is it necessary.  If the 3He
really was a byproduct of tritium decay, then neutron capture would appear
to be unlikely as the primary source of heat in this instance, leaving the
6Li+d reaction.  Another reason the 3He+n reaction seems unlikely as the
primary source of heat is that it does not involve deuterium.

Since 6Li is 7 percent of naturally occurring lithium, the amount of if
that will have been present in the electrolyte is non-negligible.  But it's
not clear that it would make it into the hollow cathode, where the tritium
diffused from; perhaps it was able to enter the cathode through a crack in
a ligation that was used to seal in the palladium black.  Another
possibility is that tritium was generated at the exterior of the cathode
and then migrated through the cathode into the center, where palladium
black was.  In this case the reaction would have been in the electrolyte or
at the interface between the exterior of the cathode and the electrolyte.
If this is what happened, it is not clear what would have been driving the
6Li(d,t)5Li reaction. Perhaps there were d's shooting out into the
electrolyte sufficiently fast for this purpose.  I am not sure what the
cross section for this reaction is, which could tell us how fast the d's
would need to be going.

To summarize some interesting details:

   - The possibility of tritium as the main daughter product giving rise to
   excess heat is unusual and is worth thinking about.
   - It looks like the tritium and excess heat could be arising in this
   case from reactions with the electrolyte that involve lithium and deuterium.
   - Alternatively, neutrons from an unknown source could be causing the
   tritium and excess heat by way of 3He(n,p)t reactions, but if that is the
   case, you would need a way to get neutrons from the presence of LiOD and
   not LiOH, and you would need the presence of 3He prior to that of the
   tritium.
   - If the lithium in the electrolyte is involved, it seems like you would
   need fast particles to keep things going; fast enough, anyway, to make the
   6Li(d,t)5Li reaction a likelihood.

I would be interested in seeing the paper that the slide is based off of.
 Has anyone seen it?

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:

>
>- McKubre and coworkers saw excess heat and *tritium* production
>(2-5E15 atoms) in palladium black and LiOD.  In that experiment there was
>no 4He, and 3He was commensurate with tritium decay (i.e., no 3He from the
>primary reaction).
>
> Note also that tritium is a health hazard.  If this finding can be
substantiated, there would be a good argument for regulation of LENR
(although I doubt regulation would be effective in the hobbyist context).

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Eric Walker]

On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Alan Fletcher  wrote:

>
> http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/news/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect-paving-the-way-for-a-potential-new-clean-renewable-energy-source
>
> Thanks!  McKubre's is interesting  -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA (
> http://www.dtra.mil/  !!??)
>

Very interesting slides.  Some points for those who have not taken a look
at them:

   - McKubre and coworkers saw excess heat and *tritium* production (2-5E15
   atoms) in palladium black and LiOD.  In that experiment there was no 4He,
   and 3He was commensurate with tritium decay (i.e., no 3He from the primary
   reaction).
   - They saw excess heat with Ni/H.
   - They saw something with Ni/D.
   - There is a bullet point towards asks of whether Ni/H is perhaps
   Ni/H(D) (if this interpretation is correct, the question is along the lines
   of my own speculations of late).

I wonder whether the connection with DARPA is related to the tritium.
 Tritium is normally hard to come by, and it is very useful if you want to
make a nuclear weapon.  If the goal of your organization was to avoid
strategic surprises, you would probably want to look into the possibility
of tabletop tritium, however remote it might seem.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Alan Fletcher]

> Thanks!  McKubre's is interesting  -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA
> (http://www.dtra.mil/  !!??)

Does anyone have any information on DARPA's relationship to SRI/McKubre. Is it 
general support, or specifically for CF, and the the ENEA/NRL agreement?

(If you can tell me, of course.)

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[James Bowery]

I'm surprised there is no video equivalent of CSPAN for this.


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Alan Fletcher  wrote:

> > From: "Akira Shirakawa" 
> > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:31:34 AM
>
> > Hello group,
> >
> > The presentations shown during the June 3 LENR meeting at the
> > European
> > Parliament in Brussels can now be downloaded, in pdf format, from the
> > ENEA website through the following URL:
> >
> >
> http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/news/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect-paving-the-way-for-a-potential-new-clean-renewable-energy-source
>
> Thanks!  McKubre's is interesting  -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA (
> http://www.dtra.mil/  !!??)
>
> (Thanks Cravens and Letts !!)
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Alan Fletcher]

> From: "Akira Shirakawa" 
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 7:31:34 AM
 
> Hello group,
> 
> The presentations shown during the June 3 LENR meeting at the
> European
> Parliament in Brussels can now be downloaded, in pdf format, from the
> ENEA website through the following URL:
> 
> http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/news/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect-paving-the-way-for-a-potential-new-clean-renewable-energy-source

Thanks!  McKubre's is interesting  -- sponsored by DARPA and DTRA 
(http://www.dtra.mil/  !!??)

(Thanks Cravens and Letts !!)

[Vo]:Brussels LENR meeting presentations in pdf

[Akira Shirakawa]

Hello group,

The presentations shown during the June 3 LENR meeting at the European 
Parliament in Brussels can now be downloaded, in pdf format, from the 
ENEA website through the following URL:


http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/news/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect-paving-the-way-for-a-potential-new-clean-renewable-energy-source

Direct links:

http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/documenti/eventi/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect/1-michael-mckubre-pdf
http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/documenti/eventi/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect/2-vittorio-violante-pdf
http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/documenti/eventi/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect/3-graham-hubler-pdf
http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/documenti/eventi/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect/4-konrad-czerski-pdf
http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/documenti/eventi/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect/5-robert-duncan-pdf

Source: 22passi
http://22passi.blogspot.com/2013/06/new-advancements-on-fleischmann-pons_13.html

Cheers,
S.A.