RE: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Jones Beene]

Worth noting - in the strange coincidences department (involving quantum
spin) .

 

Think about the oft-referenced quantum spin experiment known as
Stern-Gerlach. Silver vapor was used in the experiment. 

 

That's right, silver atoms were evaporated using an electric furnace in a
vacuum. Why use silver to demonstrate quantum spin? There are dozens of
other metals which could have been used with much lower boiling points
(especially zinc) .

 

Anyway, I'm not sure how relevant that factoid is to the subject of finding
"common ground" between Mills/BLP and cold fusion, just as it is not clear
that Fleishmann always recommended Type A palladium (with silver content of
23%). Or the fact that the chosen alloy from J-M was not meant to be exactly
a 3-1 atomic ratio (75/25 instead of 77/23). Maybe being slightly off (in
symmetry) makes the crystal structure prone to spin-enhancement in some way.

 

These are some of the mysteries that adequate funding to LENR would have,
and should have, discovered in the early nineties..

 

From: Bob Cook 

 

Jones-- In passing you noted the unusual high spin state of  Ag-108m.  A
little extra spin (like that added by NMR machines to selected isotopes) may
be enough to catalyze a nuclear reaction and transition of spin energy to
other forms of kinetic energy in a multi-body entangled system.. This idea
suggests that other quasi-stable isotopes because of their high spin may
also act as a catalysts for LENR.  

Re: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Bob Cook]

Jones--


In passing you noted the unusual high spin state of  Ag-108m.  A little extra 
spin (like that added by NMR machines to selected isotopes) may be enough to 
catalyze a nuclear reaction and transition of spin energy to other forms of 
kinetic energy in a multi-body entangled system.   For example,  phonic energy 
of a metal lattice's electrons.


This idea suggests that other quasi-stable isotopes because of their high spin 
may also act as a catalysts for LENR.  Long-lived or stable high-spin isotopes 
may be more practical than Ag-108m (418 year half-live).  Good control of radio 
energy input frequency and the ambient magnetic field (as NMR machines are 
designed to provide) may be the key technology to allow use of other high-spin 
stable isotopes as LENR catalysts.


The change of Ag-108 in Pd electrodes as a function of energy produced should 
be  determined to further address your ideas about its importance.


IMHO a real-time mass spec instrument is warranted for LENR research.   And any 
entity having expertise in NMR technolgy (GE and Siemans for example) should be 
proficient in evaluating this potential LENR mechanism.  In addition any 
government laboratory with such proficiency would be able to add to the 
knowledge base.  There are probably a dozen in the US alone.


Bob Cook




From: Jones Beene <jone...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 7:31 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?


Fire up a rousing version of "The William Tell Overture" in order to appreciate 
the latest contention (you heard it first on vortex) that SILVER (not the horse 
but the shiny element 47) is the almost-hidden key to success in cold fusion... 
and also the Mills effect as well ! Or is it a coincidence that Randy 
absolutely depends on silver in his recent announcements?

At first, the large amount of silver used in the Sun Cell was said to be an 
electrical contact, but now Ag is admitted to be the only catalyst necessary 
for hydrogen redundancy/reactivity. The only parameter which is required for 
the reaction to self-sustain, according to Mills own statement (see the latest 
video on YT) - is “sufficient vapor pressure of silver in the presence of 
hydrogen”. That’s right – silver is the only catalyst needed.

Imagine that … but now imagine it in the context of cold fusion. Palladium and 
silver are very similar and often found together in nature. A silver-palladium 
alloy is superior to palladium for hydrogen diffusion or as a membrane 
purification. The palladium alloy Pd77 Ag23 is considered the best alloy for 
hydrogen diffusion, with technical superiority pure metal. The best alloy from 
J-M is called “Type A” and contains 23% silver.

Martin Fleischmann was adamant about the need for silver. This was a perennial 
subject on vortex for years in the past and Jed Rothwell’s comments are worth 
reviewing. "Type A" is the palladium J-M developed in the 1930s for their 
hydrogen filters. Fleischmann sez: "Look at the data from Miles. What does it 
tell you? When Uncle Martin gives you palladium, it works. When you get the 
palladium from somewhere else, it doesn't work! Why don't people pay attention 
to that?!?" He was referring to Table 10 in this document, which -- as Martin 
says -- no one seems to pay any attention to:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf

ANOMALOUS EFFECTS IN DEUTERATED 
SYSTEMS<http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf>
lenr-canr.org
1 Miles, M. and K.B. Johnson, Anomalous Effects in Deuterated Systems, Final 
Report. 1996, Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division. NAWCWPNS TP 8302


It is now looking like the element silver, which adjoins Pd in the periodic 
table, could be the key to excess heat in both cold fusion and the Mills 
effect. But why? It is not likely that it works in a different way for Mills 
than it does for P

One thing is superconductivity. It is known in the early nineties that Pd-D is 
superconductive when loaded above 70%, but the highest transition state is 
found in the Pd-Ag alloy known as Type A, which is well above pure Pd. Yup … 
the same alloy we have been talking about. Coincidence?

Silver also has numerous metastable states with the most stable being Ag-108m 
with a half-life of 418 years. If you subscribe to the “virtual neutron” of 
Widom-Larsen or the DDL, or the UDH of Holmlid, then silver would possibly go 
to the 108m metastable isotope by absorption of dense hydrogen and it could 
absorb as a halo nucleus. Ag-108m  is said to have an extremely high spin state 
of 6 (but I cannot find a citation for that).

In conclusion, if you follow the cutting edge between LENR and Mills, and can 
find the one overwhelming detail of similarity - then it is most likely silver 
and the fact that the gain is coming from Ag either as a catalyst or as a 
reactant.

In Mills, sil

Correction RE: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Robert Dorr]

That should have been Pd 77% not Pd 67%.


Jones,

Thanks for the clarification regarding the JM Pd. I don't see in the 
document that you are citing that "JM Pd" in table 10 is referenced 
to "JM Pd Type A" that is apparently an alloy of Pd 67% and Ag 23%. 
Where does it say that the "JM Pd" in table 10 is "JM Pd Type A"? Are 
you saying that all  "JM Pd" is an alloy of Pd/Ag? Thanks for any 
information you can provide.


Bob




At 10:35 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote:
I should add that the precise atomic ratio of 77/23 in the alloy 
known as "Type A" which was discovered in 1930, is not arbitrary and 
is a critical parameter. Brian Ahern and Keith Johnson discovered 
the superconductive aspect (Tc) was maximized in an alloy at this 
precise ratio in a sharp peak, as is proton conductivity. If a 
different ratio is used, success is problematic, since proton 
conductivity comes first. For instance a 50/50 alloy would possibly 
fail to load hydrogen at all.


Since Pd as a pure metal is denser than Ag by a ratio of 120/105 the 
optimum alloy ratio, if stated by mass, is different than the atomic 
ratio - and alloys are often designated by mass - so you can see the 
problem with proper labeling.


From: Jones Beene

Thanks Robert. I should have spent more time on the explanation of 
that table, but the post was already getting too long.


The "JM Pd" is type A which is 23% Ag. This was apparently 
successful 17 times out of 28 including the hero effort which was 7 
times more P-out than any boron run.


The unsuccessful "NRL silver alloy" is a mystery and it does go 
against the contention that silver is the critical component, but 
they did say that deuterium loading was poor for the NRL sample, 
hence excess-heat production was not likely. Why loading was poor is 
not stated.


When silver vapor is used - as in Mills Sun Cell experiment, loading 
becomes a non-issue and surface area is maximized.


From: Robert Dorr

Looking at Table 10 in the document cited, it would appear that 
Boron is the smoking gun, not silver. In fact Pd-Ag never worked but 
Pd-B worked 7 out of 8 times.


Robert Dorr


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RE: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Robert Dorr]

Jones,

Thanks for the clarification regarding the JM Pd. I don't see in the 
document that you are citing that "JM Pd" in table 10 is referenced 
to "JM Pd Type A" that is apparently an alloy of Pd 67% and Ag 23%. 
Where does it say that the "JM Pd" in table 10 is "JM Pd Type A"? Are 
you saying that all  "JM Pd" is an alloy of Pd/Ag? Thanks for any 
information you can provide.


Bob


At 10:35 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote:
I should add that the precise atomic ratio of 77/23 in the alloy 
known as "Type A" which was discovered in 1930, is not arbitrary and 
is a critical parameter. Brian Ahern and Keith Johnson discovered 
the superconductive aspect (Tc) was maximized in an alloy at this 
precise ratio in a sharp peak, as is proton conductivity. If a 
different ratio is used, success is problematic, since proton 
conductivity comes first. For instance a 50/50 alloy would possibly 
fail to load hydrogen at all.


Since Pd as a pure metal is denser than Ag by a ratio of 120/105 the 
optimum alloy ratio, if stated by mass, is different than the atomic 
ratio - and alloys are often designated by mass - so you can see the 
problem with proper labeling.


From: Jones Beene

Thanks Robert. I should have spent more time on the explanation of 
that table, but the post was already getting too long.


The "JM Pd" is type A which is 23% Ag. This was apparently 
successful 17 times out of 28 including the hero effort which was 7 
times more P-out than any boron run.


The unsuccessful "NRL silver alloy" is a mystery and it does go 
against the contention that silver is the critical component, but 
they did say that deuterium loading was poor for the NRL sample, 
hence excess-heat production was not likely. Why loading was poor is 
not stated.


When silver vapor is used - as in Mills Sun Cell experiment, loading 
becomes a non-issue and surface area is maximized.


From: Robert Dorr

Looking at Table 10 in the document cited, it would appear that 
Boron is the smoking gun, not silver. In fact Pd-Ag never worked but 
Pd-B worked 7 out of 8 times.


Robert Dorr


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7859 / Virus Database: 4664/13303 - Release Date: 10/29/16

RE: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Jones Beene]

I should add that the precise atomic ratio of 77/23 in the alloy known as
"Type A" which was discovered in 1930, is not arbitrary and is a critical
parameter. Brian Ahern and Keith Johnson discovered the superconductive
aspect (Tc) was maximized in an alloy at this precise ratio in a sharp peak,
as is proton conductivity. If a different ratio is used, success is
problematic, since proton conductivity comes first. For instance a 50/50
alloy would possibly fail to load hydrogen at all.

 

Since Pd as a pure metal is denser than Ag by a ratio of 120/105 the optimum
alloy ratio, if stated by mass, is different than the atomic ratio - and
alloys are often designated by mass - so you can see the problem with proper
labeling.

 

From: Jones Beene

 

Thanks Robert. I should have spent more time on the explanation of that
table, but the post was already getting too long.

 

The "JM Pd" is type A which is 23% Ag. This was apparently successful 17
times out of 28 including the hero effort which was 7 times more P-out than
any boron run. 

 

The unsuccessful "NRL silver alloy" is a mystery and it does go against the
contention that silver is the critical component, but they did say that
deuterium loading was poor for the NRL sample, hence excess-heat production
was not likely. Why loading was poor is not stated.

 

When silver vapor is used - as in Mills Sun Cell experiment, loading becomes
a non-issue and surface area is maximized.

 

From: Robert Dorr 


Looking at Table 10 in the document cited, it would appear that Boron is the
smoking gun, not silver. In fact Pd-Ag never worked but Pd-B worked 7 out of
8 times.

Robert Dorr

 

RE: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Jones Beene]

Thanks Robert. I should have spent more time on the explanation of that
table, but the post was already getting too long.

 

The "JM Pd" is type A which is 23% Ag. This was apparently successful 17
times out of 28 including the hero effort which was 7 times more P-out than
any boron run. 

 

The unsuccessful "NRL silver alloy" is a mystery and it does go against the
contention that silver is the critical component, but they did say that
deuterium loading was poor for the NRL sample, hence excess-heat production
was not likely. Why loading was poor is not stated.

 

When silver vapor is used - as in Mills Sun Cell experiment, loading becomes
a non-issue and surface area is maximized.

 

From: Robert Dorr 


Looking at Table 10 in the document cited, it would appear that Boron is the
smoking gun, not silver. In fact Pd-Ag never worked but Pd-B worked 7 out of
8 times.

Robert Dorr



 

Re: [Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Robert Dorr]

Looking at Table 10 in the document cited, it 
would appear that Boron is the smoking gun, not 
silver. In fact Pd-Ag never worked but Pd-B worked 7 out of 8 times.


Robert Dorr



At 07:31 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote:

Fire up a rousing version of "The William Tell 
Overture" in order to appreciate the latest 
contention (you heard it first on vortex) that 
SILVER (not the horse but the shiny element 47) 
is the almost-hidden key to success in cold 
fusion... and also the Mills effect as well ! Or 
is it a coincidence that Randy absolutely 
depends on silver in his recent announcements?


At first, the large amount of silver used in the 
Sun Cell was said to be an electrical contact, 
but now Ag is admitted to be the only catalyst 
necessary for hydrogen redundancy/reactivity. 
The only parameter which is required for the 
reaction to self-sustain, according to Mills own 
statement (see the latest video on YT) - is 
“sufficient vapor pressure of silver in the 
presence of hydrogen”. That’s right – silver is the only catalyst needed.


Imagine that … but now imagine it in the context 
of cold fusion. Palladium and silver are very 
similar and often found together in nature. A 
silver-palladium alloy is superior to palladium 
for hydrogen diffusion or as a membrane 
purification. The palladium alloy Pd77 Ag23 is 
considered the best alloy for hydrogen 
diffusion, with technical superiority pure 
metal. The best alloy from J-M is called “Type A” and contains 23% silver.


Martin Fleischmann was adamant about the need 
for silver. This was a perennial subject on 
vortex for years in the past and Jed Rothwell’s 
comments are worth reviewing. "Type A" is the 
palladium J-M developed in the 1930s for their 
hydrogen filters. Fleischmann sez: "Look at the 
data from Miles. What does it tell you? When 
Uncle Martin gives you palladium, it works. When 
you get the palladium from somewhere else, it 
doesn't work! Why don't people pay attention to 
that?!?" He was referring to Table 10 in this 
document, which -- as Martin says -- no one seems to pay any attention to:


http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf

It is now looking like the element silver, which 
adjoins Pd in the periodic table, could be the 
key to excess heat in both cold fusion and the 
Mills effect. But why? It is not likely that it 
works in a different way for Mills than it does for P


One thing is superconductivity. It is known in 
the early nineties that Pd-D is superconductive 
when loaded above 70%, but the highest 
transition state is found in the Pd-Ag alloy 
known as Type A, which is well above pure Pd. 
Yup … the same alloy we have been talking about. Coincidence?


Silver also has numerous metastable states with 
the most stable being Ag-108m with a half-life 
of 418 years. If you subscribe to the “virtual 
neutron” of Widom-Larsen or the DDL, or the UDH 
of Holmlid, then silver would possibly go to the 
108m metastable isotope by absorption of dense 
hydrogen and it could absorb as a halo nucleus. 
Ag-108m  is said to have an extremely high spin 
state of 6 (but I cannot find a citation for that).


In conclusion, if you follow the cutting edge 
between LENR and Mills, and can find the one 
overwhelming detail of similarity - then it is 
most likely silver and the fact that the gain is 
coming from Ag either as a catalyst or as a reactant.


In Mills, silver is catalyst but in LENR it is 
reactant. It will be interesting to see which 
end-result prevails in the end. Maybe there is room for both.


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7859 / Virus Database: 4664/13303 - Release Date: 10/29/16

[Vo]:Hi-Yo Silver- the smoking gun of LENR emerges?

[Jones Beene]

Fire up a rousing version of "The William Tell Overture" in order to
appreciate the latest contention (you heard it first on vortex) that SILVER
(not the horse but the shiny element 47) is the almost-hidden key to success
in cold fusion... and also the Mills effect as well ! Or is it a coincidence
that Randy absolutely depends on silver in his recent announcements?

At first, the large amount of silver used in the Sun Cell was said to be an
electrical contact, but now Ag is admitted to be the only catalyst necessary
for hydrogen redundancy/reactivity. The only parameter which is required for
the reaction to self-sustain, according to Mills own statement (see the
latest video on YT) - is "sufficient vapor pressure of silver in the
presence of hydrogen". That's right - silver is the only catalyst needed.

Imagine that . but now imagine it in the context of cold fusion. Palladium
and silver are very similar and often found together in nature. A
silver-palladium alloy is superior to palladium for hydrogen diffusion or as
a membrane purification. The palladium alloy Pd77 Ag23 is considered the
best alloy for hydrogen diffusion, with technical superiority pure metal.
The best alloy from J-M is called "Type A" and contains 23% silver.

Martin Fleischmann was adamant about the need for silver. This was a
perennial subject on vortex for years in the past and Jed Rothwell's
comments are worth reviewing. "Type A" is the palladium J-M developed in the
1930s for their hydrogen filters. Fleischmann sez: "Look at the data from
Miles. What does it tell you? When Uncle Martin gives you palladium, it
works. When you get the palladium from somewhere else, it doesn't work! Why
don't people pay attention to that?!?" He was referring to Table 10 in this
document, which -- as Martin says -- no one seems to pay any attention to:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf

It is now looking like the element silver, which adjoins Pd in the periodic
table, could be the key to excess heat in both cold fusion and the Mills
effect. But why? It is not likely that it works in a different way for Mills
than it does for P 

One thing is superconductivity. It is known in the early nineties that Pd-D
is superconductive when loaded above 70%, but the highest transition state
is found in the Pd-Ag alloy known as Type A, which is well above pure Pd.
Yup . the same alloy we have been talking about. Coincidence?

Silver also has numerous metastable states with the most stable being
Ag-108m with a half-life of 418 years. If you subscribe to the "virtual
neutron" of Widom-Larsen or the DDL, or the UDH of Holmlid, then silver
would possibly go to the 108m metastable isotope by absorption of dense
hydrogen and it could absorb as a halo nucleus. Ag-108m  is said to have an
extremely high spin state of 6 (but I cannot find a citation for that).

In conclusion, if you follow the cutting edge between LENR and Mills, and
can find the one overwhelming detail of similarity - then it is most likely
silver and the fact that the gain is coming from Ag either as a catalyst or
as a reactant. 

In Mills, silver is catalyst but in LENR it is reactant. It will be
interesting to see which end-result prevails in the end. Maybe there is room
for both.