subject:"\[Vo\]\:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory"

I don't think we yet know where the virus came from.  Until that detail is
nailed down, I think the jury is still out.

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/where-did-new-coronavirus-come-past-outbreaks-provide-hints-n1144521


On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:04 PM Jones Beene  wrote:

> This is an incredible must-see video by an expert on the new virus- which
> will change your entire understanding of the Chinese response to Covid.
> Essentially they reversed an epidemic situation in a short time.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o0q1XMRKYM
>
> No matter what you may say or think about their political system - it is
> better suited to handle National emergencies than Capitalism is, and if you
> are ever in an emergency like this - you are a lot better-off living in
> China than in the USA. And that's not even close.
>
> Despite the large population, China is very close to being governed by
> technology, not by politicians - China could become the first AI-augmented
> political system, and sooner than you imagine. What an irony.
>
> They will eat out lunch if we do not take notice of the basic advantage of
> "rule by science" - rule by AI... instead of rule by incompetent
> politicians.
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-28 Thread Jones Beene

This is an incredible must-see video by an expert on the new virus- which will 
change your entire understanding of the Chinese response to Covid. Essentially 
they reversed an epidemic situation in a short time. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o0q1XMRKYM

No matter what you may say or think about their political system - it is better 
suited to handle National emergencies than Capitalism is, and if you are ever 
in an emergency like this - you are a lot better-off living in China than in 
the USA. And that's not even close.
Despite the large population, China is very close to being governed by 
technology, not by politicians - China could become the first AI-augmented 
political system, and sooner than you imagine. What an irony.

They will eat out lunch if we do not take notice of the basic advantage of 
"rule by science" - rule by AI... instead of rule by incompetent politicians.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

^^ bill gates
Apologies for spam.

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 10:27 AM Blaze Spinnaker 
wrote:

> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2003762
>
> Right off the top.  He's not pussyfooting, that's for sure:
>
> n any crisis, leaders have two equally important responsibilities: solve
> the immediate problem and keep it from happening again. The Covid-19 *pandemic
> *is a case in point.
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 10:20 AM Blaze Spinnaker 
> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, that is so hilariously stupid.   It's like the white house has
>> become a Conspiracy Theory factory.  "So, everyone, rather than scientists
>> and experts speak about what they rationally know to be true, only totality
>> unqualified and completely biased politicians are allowed to talk."
>>
>> Lol.
>>
>> this is crazy -
>> https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/u-s-cdc-confirms-one-more-coronavirus-case-among-diamond-princess-evacuees
>>
>>
>> Have they just decided - who cares about the diamond princess people?  As
>> long as they don't infect other people they can happily infect themselves.
>> Or WTF is going on?
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jed Rothwell 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Here is frightening news. The Trump administration is politicizing this,
>>> lying about it, and suppressing the truth the way the Chinese government
>>> did.
>>>
>>> Pence Will Control All Coronavirus Messaging From Health Officials
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronavirus-pence.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is a similar story in the WaPost text, from behind the paywall:
>>>
>>> Whistleblower: Workers at risk aiding evacuees
>>> Complainant alleges she was targeted for raising concerns.
>>> By Lena H. Sun and Yasmeen Abutaleb
>>> Washington Post
>>>
>>> WASHINGTON -Officials at the Department of Health and Human Services
>>> sent more than a dozen workers to receive the first Americans evacuated
>>> from Wuhan, China, the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, without
>>> proper training for infection control or appropriate protective gear,
>>> according to a whistleblower complaint.
>>>
>>> The workers did not show symptoms of infection and were not tested for
>>> the virus, according to lawyers for the whistleblower, who is a senior HHS
>>> official based in Washington who oversees workers at the Administration
>>> for Children and Families, a unit within HHS.
>>>
>>> The whistleblower is seeking federal protection because she alleges she
>>> was unfairly and improperly reassigned after raising concerns about the
>>> safety of these workers to HHS officials, including those within the office
>>> of Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar. She was told Feb. 19
>>> that if she does not accept the new position in 15 days, which is March 5,
>>> she would be terminated.
>>>
>>> The whistleblower has decades of experience in the field, received two
>>> HHS department awards from Azar last year and has received the highest
>>> performance evaluations, her lawyers said.
>>>
>>> The complaint was filed Wednesday with the Office of the Special
>>> Counsel, an independent federal watchdog agency. The whistleblower's
>>> lawyers provided a copy of a redacted 24-page complaint to The Washington
>>> Post. A spokesman for the Office of the Special Counsel said he could not
>>> comment on complaints filed with the office. . . .
>>>
>>> The complaint alleges that HHS staff were "improperly deployed" and were
>>> "not properly trained or equipped to operate in a public health emergency
>>> situation." The complaint also alleges that the workers were potentially
>>> exposed to coronavirus because appropriate steps were not taken to
>>> protect them, and staff were not trained in wearing personal protective
>>> equipment, even though they had face-to-face contact with returning
>>> passengers. The workers were in contact with passengers in an airplane
>>> hangar where evacuees were received and on two other occasions: when they
>>> helped distribute keys for room assignments and hand out colored ribbons
>>> for identification purposes. . . .
>>>
>>> A second person familiar with the situation said the workers were not
>>> tested for coronavirus because none of them met the criteria for testing,
>>> which only calls for testing people who had recent travel to China or
>>> contact with a confirmed case. The workers also did not exhibit any
>>> symptoms, the person said. If they had, appropriate protocol would have
>>> been followed.
>>>
>>> The deployments took place Jan. 28 to 31, around the time when the first
>>> planeload of evacuees arrived at March, and Feb. 2 to Feb. 7, during the
>>> time when additional flights were arriving at Travis. The planes each
>>> carried about 200 Americans repatriated from Wuhan.
>>>
>>> After their deployments, the workers returned to their normal duties,
>>> some taking commercial airline flights to return to their offices around
>>> the country, the lawyers said.
>>>
>>>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2003762

Right off the top.  He's not pussyfooting, that's for sure:

n any crisis, leaders have two equally important responsibilities: solve
the immediate problem and keep it from happening again. The Covid-19 *pandemic
*is a case in point.

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 10:20 AM Blaze Spinnaker 
wrote:

> Yeah, that is so hilariously stupid.   It's like the white house has
> become a Conspiracy Theory factory.  "So, everyone, rather than scientists
> and experts speak about what they rationally know to be true, only totality
> unqualified and completely biased politicians are allowed to talk."
>
> Lol.
>
> this is crazy -
> https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/u-s-cdc-confirms-one-more-coronavirus-case-among-diamond-princess-evacuees
>
>
> Have they just decided - who cares about the diamond princess people?  As
> long as they don't infect other people they can happily infect themselves.
> Or WTF is going on?
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Here is frightening news. The Trump administration is politicizing this,
>> lying about it, and suppressing the truth the way the Chinese government
>> did.
>>
>> Pence Will Control All Coronavirus Messaging From Health Officials
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronavirus-pence.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is a similar story in the WaPost text, from behind the paywall:
>>
>> Whistleblower: Workers at risk aiding evacuees
>> Complainant alleges she was targeted for raising concerns.
>> By Lena H. Sun and Yasmeen Abutaleb
>> Washington Post
>>
>> WASHINGTON -Officials at the Department of Health and Human Services sent
>> more than a dozen workers to receive the first Americans evacuated from
>> Wuhan, China, the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, without proper
>> training for infection control or appropriate protective gear, according
>> to a whistleblower complaint.
>>
>> The workers did not show symptoms of infection and were not tested for
>> the virus, according to lawyers for the whistleblower, who is a senior HHS
>> official based in Washington who oversees workers at the Administration
>> for Children and Families, a unit within HHS.
>>
>> The whistleblower is seeking federal protection because she alleges she
>> was unfairly and improperly reassigned after raising concerns about the
>> safety of these workers to HHS officials, including those within the office
>> of Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar. She was told Feb. 19
>> that if she does not accept the new position in 15 days, which is March 5,
>> she would be terminated.
>>
>> The whistleblower has decades of experience in the field, received two
>> HHS department awards from Azar last year and has received the highest
>> performance evaluations, her lawyers said.
>>
>> The complaint was filed Wednesday with the Office of the Special Counsel,
>> an independent federal watchdog agency. The whistleblower's lawyers
>> provided a copy of a redacted 24-page complaint to The Washington Post. A
>> spokesman for the Office of the Special Counsel said he could not comment
>> on complaints filed with the office. . . .
>>
>> The complaint alleges that HHS staff were "improperly deployed" and were
>> "not properly trained or equipped to operate in a public health emergency
>> situation." The complaint also alleges that the workers were potentially
>> exposed to coronavirus because appropriate steps were not taken to
>> protect them, and staff were not trained in wearing personal protective
>> equipment, even though they had face-to-face contact with returning
>> passengers. The workers were in contact with passengers in an airplane
>> hangar where evacuees were received and on two other occasions: when they
>> helped distribute keys for room assignments and hand out colored ribbons
>> for identification purposes. . . .
>>
>> A second person familiar with the situation said the workers were not
>> tested for coronavirus because none of them met the criteria for testing,
>> which only calls for testing people who had recent travel to China or
>> contact with a confirmed case. The workers also did not exhibit any
>> symptoms, the person said. If they had, appropriate protocol would have
>> been followed.
>>
>> The deployments took place Jan. 28 to 31, around the time when the first
>> planeload of evacuees arrived at March, and Feb. 2 to Feb. 7, during the
>> time when additional flights were arriving at Travis. The planes each
>> carried about 200 Americans repatriated from Wuhan.
>>
>> After their deployments, the workers returned to their normal duties,
>> some taking commercial airline flights to return to their offices around
>> the country, the lawyers said.
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

Yeah, that is so hilariously stupid.   It's like the white house has become
a Conspiracy Theory factory.  "So, everyone, rather than scientists and
experts speak about what they rationally know to be true, only totality
unqualified and completely biased politicians are allowed to talk."

Lol.

this is crazy -
https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/u-s-cdc-confirms-one-more-coronavirus-case-among-diamond-princess-evacuees


Have they just decided - who cares about the diamond princess people?  As
long as they don't infect other people they can happily infect themselves.
Or WTF is going on?

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:48 AM Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Here is frightening news. The Trump administration is politicizing this,
> lying about it, and suppressing the truth the way the Chinese government
> did.
>
> Pence Will Control All Coronavirus Messaging From Health Officials
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronavirus-pence.html
>
>
> Here is a similar story in the WaPost text, from behind the paywall:
>
> Whistleblower: Workers at risk aiding evacuees
> Complainant alleges she was targeted for raising concerns.
> By Lena H. Sun and Yasmeen Abutaleb
> Washington Post
>
> WASHINGTON -Officials at the Department of Health and Human Services sent
> more than a dozen workers to receive the first Americans evacuated from
> Wuhan, China, the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, without proper
> training for infection control or appropriate protective gear, according
> to a whistleblower complaint.
>
> The workers did not show symptoms of infection and were not tested for the
> virus, according to lawyers for the whistleblower, who is a senior HHS
> official based in Washington who oversees workers at the Administration
> for Children and Families, a unit within HHS.
>
> The whistleblower is seeking federal protection because she alleges she
> was unfairly and improperly reassigned after raising concerns about the
> safety of these workers to HHS officials, including those within the office
> of Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar. She was told Feb. 19
> that if she does not accept the new position in 15 days, which is March 5,
> she would be terminated.
>
> The whistleblower has decades of experience in the field, received two HHS
> department awards from Azar last year and has received the highest
> performance evaluations, her lawyers said.
>
> The complaint was filed Wednesday with the Office of the Special Counsel,
> an independent federal watchdog agency. The whistleblower's lawyers
> provided a copy of a redacted 24-page complaint to The Washington Post. A
> spokesman for the Office of the Special Counsel said he could not comment
> on complaints filed with the office. . . .
>
> The complaint alleges that HHS staff were "improperly deployed" and were
> "not properly trained or equipped to operate in a public health emergency
> situation." The complaint also alleges that the workers were potentially
> exposed to coronavirus because appropriate steps were not taken to
> protect them, and staff were not trained in wearing personal protective
> equipment, even though they had face-to-face contact with returning
> passengers. The workers were in contact with passengers in an airplane
> hangar where evacuees were received and on two other occasions: when they
> helped distribute keys for room assignments and hand out colored ribbons
> for identification purposes. . . .
>
> A second person familiar with the situation said the workers were not
> tested for coronavirus because none of them met the criteria for testing,
> which only calls for testing people who had recent travel to China or
> contact with a confirmed case. The workers also did not exhibit any
> symptoms, the person said. If they had, appropriate protocol would have
> been followed.
>
> The deployments took place Jan. 28 to 31, around the time when the first
> planeload of evacuees arrived at March, and Feb. 2 to Feb. 7, during the
> time when additional flights were arriving at Travis. The planes each
> carried about 200 Americans repatriated from Wuhan.
>
> After their deployments, the workers returned to their normal duties, some
> taking commercial airline flights to return to their offices around the
> country, the lawyers said.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-28 Thread Jed Rothwell

Here is frightening news. The Trump administration is politicizing this,
lying about it, and suppressing the truth the way the Chinese government
did.

Pence Will Control All Coronavirus Messaging From Health Officials

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronavirus-pence.html


Here is a similar story in the WaPost text, from behind the paywall:

Whistleblower: Workers at risk aiding evacuees
Complainant alleges she was targeted for raising concerns.
By Lena H. Sun and Yasmeen Abutaleb
Washington Post

WASHINGTON -Officials at the Department of Health and Human Services sent
more than a dozen workers to receive the first Americans evacuated from
Wuhan, China, the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak, without proper
training for infection control or appropriate protective gear, according
to a whistleblower complaint.

The workers did not show symptoms of infection and were not tested for the
virus, according to lawyers for the whistleblower, who is a senior HHS
official based in Washington who oversees workers at the Administration
for Children and Families, a unit within HHS.

The whistleblower is seeking federal protection because she alleges she
was unfairly and improperly reassigned after raising concerns about the
safety of these workers to HHS officials, including those within the office
of Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar. She was told Feb. 19
that if she does not accept the new position in 15 days, which is March 5,
she would be terminated.

The whistleblower has decades of experience in the field, received two HHS
department awards from Azar last year and has received the highest
performance evaluations, her lawyers said.

The complaint was filed Wednesday with the Office of the Special Counsel,
an independent federal watchdog agency. The whistleblower's lawyers
provided a copy of a redacted 24-page complaint to The Washington Post. A
spokesman for the Office of the Special Counsel said he could not comment
on complaints filed with the office. . . .

The complaint alleges that HHS staff were "improperly deployed" and were
"not properly trained or equipped to operate in a public health emergency
situation." The complaint also alleges that the workers were potentially
exposed to coronavirus because appropriate steps were not taken to
protect them, and staff were not trained in wearing personal protective
equipment, even though they had face-to-face contact with returning
passengers. The workers were in contact with passengers in an airplane
hangar where evacuees were received and on two other occasions: when they
helped distribute keys for room assignments and hand out colored ribbons
for identification purposes. . . .

A second person familiar with the situation said the workers were not
tested for coronavirus because none of them met the criteria for testing,
which only calls for testing people who had recent travel to China or
contact with a confirmed case. The workers also did not exhibit any
symptoms, the person said. If they had, appropriate protocol would have
been followed.

The deployments took place Jan. 28 to 31, around the time when the first
planeload of evacuees arrived at March, and Feb. 2 to Feb. 7, during the
time when additional flights were arriving at Travis. The planes each
carried about 200 Americans repatriated from Wuhan.

After their deployments, the workers returned to their normal duties, some
taking commercial airline flights to return to their offices around the
country, the lawyers said.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-28 Thread Jed Rothwell

bobcook39...@hotmail.com  wrote:

Jurg-
>
>
>
> How many cases in Switzerland—where?
>

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#europe

RE: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-28 Thread bobcook39...@hotmail.com

Jurg-

How many cases in Switzerland—where?

Bob

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Jürg Wyttenbach<mailto:ju...@datamart.ch>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 4:37 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

Just as a warning:

Try to avoid having contact with people that did stay in Italy during the last 
3 weeks. All cases in Switzerland, VAE, Austria, most of Germany, ... were 
spread from Italy with Milano as a hot spot.

J.W.


Am 27.02.20 um 14:58 schrieb Terry Blanton:
All schools in Japan told to close until April over virus outbreak

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/hokkaido-coronavirus-school/#.XlfJtmhKg2w

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:16 PM Jed Rothwell 
mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Here is some encouraging news. Look carefully at these graphs, especially the 
last two:

Serious and Critical Cases

Outcome of Cases (Recovery or Death)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/

Note that the first graph, "Total Cases (worldwide)" can be changed to the 
logarithmic format on the top tab.


Main page:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Meanwhile, in bad news, the Japanese press reports that some recovered patients 
may not be fully immune.



--

Jürg Wyttenbach

Bifangstr.22

8910 Affoltern a.A.

044 760 14 18

079 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-28 Thread Jürg Wyttenbach


Just as a warning:

Try to avoid having contact with people that did stay in Italy during 
the last 3 weeks. All cases in Switzerland, VAE, Austria, most of 
Germany, ... were spread from Italy with Milano as a hot spot.


J.W.


Am 27.02.20 um 14:58 schrieb Terry Blanton:

*All schools in Japan told to close until April over virus outbreak*

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/hokkaido-coronavirus-school/#.XlfJtmhKg2w 



On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:16 PM Jed Rothwell > wrote:


Here is some encouraging news. Look carefully at these graphs,
especially the last two:

Serious and Critical Cases

Outcome of Cases (Recovery or Death)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/

Note that the first graph, "Total Cases (worldwide)" can be
changed to the logarithmic format on the top tab.


Main page:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


Meanwhile, in bad news, the Japanese press reports that some
recovered patients may not be fully immune.



--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr.22
8910 Affoltern a.A.
044 760 14 18
079 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-27 Thread mixent

In reply to  Blaze Spinnaker's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:37:26 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
https://stationfy.imgix.net/cm/5e5808bfe3daa3000772bb7c.jpg?w=570=fillmax 

This looks like only the outside of the bundle gets disinfected.

Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-27 Thread Blaze Spinnaker

Can't imagine this bodes well either -
https://www.kron4.com/health/coronavirus/solano-county-declares-emergency-following-possible-community-spread-case/

Community Spread case occurred in town where  Travis Air Force Base where
dozens of people infected in China or on cruise ships have been treated.
And now some whistle blower apparently is saying people didn't take
precautions -
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/27/politics/hhs-whistleblower-coronavirus/index.html

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 3:37 PM Blaze Spinnaker 
wrote:

> Two questions that are currently speculative and open that don't get much
> press (because they are speculative, I guess, and likely will cause undue
> alarm)
>
> - Is sars2 bi-phasic ('like anthrax')
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/diamond-princess-coronavirus-2/
> If it is bi-phasic, how infectious are folks who haven't quite recovered?
> - Is there really an HIV mutation in sars2 that makes it 1000 times more
> stronger than sars?
> https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3052495/coronavirus-far-more-likely-sars-bond-human-cells-scientists-say
>
> There is a lot of HIV discussion around coronavirus.  Hard to weed through
> all the noise.  Doctors self administering hiv meds, india paper (since
> withdrawn -
> https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Caixin/Scientists-slam-Indian-study-that-fueled-coronavirus-rumors)
> implying that HIV was artificially added to virus.
>
> If sars2 is bi-phasic and does have an HIV mutation (artificial or
> otherwise), I can only imagine the panic that will result.
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:26 AM  wrote:
>
>> In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:58:45 -0500:
>> Hi,
>> >*All schools in Japan told to close until April over virus outbreak*
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/hokkaido-coronavirus-school/#.XlfJtmhKg2w
>> >
>> [snip]
>>
>> First they take a stringent measure, then immediately blow holes in it,
>> by creating exemptions.
>> [snip]
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>> local asymmetry = temporary success
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-27 Thread Blaze Spinnaker

Two questions that are currently speculative and open that don't get much
press (because they are speculative, I guess, and likely will cause undue
alarm)

- Is sars2 bi-phasic ('like anthrax')
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/diamond-princess-coronavirus-2/
If it is bi-phasic, how infectious are folks who haven't quite recovered?
- Is there really an HIV mutation in sars2 that makes it 1000 times more
stronger than sars?
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3052495/coronavirus-far-more-likely-sars-bond-human-cells-scientists-say

There is a lot of HIV discussion around coronavirus.  Hard to weed through
all the noise.  Doctors self administering hiv meds, india paper (since
withdrawn -
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Caixin/Scientists-slam-Indian-study-that-fueled-coronavirus-rumors)
implying that HIV was artificially added to virus.

If sars2 is bi-phasic and does have an HIV mutation (artificial or
otherwise), I can only imagine the panic that will result.

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:26 AM  wrote:

> In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:58:45 -0500:
> Hi,
> >*All schools in Japan told to close until April over virus outbreak*
> >
> >
> https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/hokkaido-coronavirus-school/#.XlfJtmhKg2w
> >
> [snip]
>
> First they take a stringent measure, then immediately blow holes in it, by
> creating exemptions.
> [snip]
> Regards,
>
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> local asymmetry = temporary success
>
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-27 Thread mixent

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:58:45 -0500:
Hi,
>*All schools in Japan told to close until April over virus outbreak*
>
>https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/hokkaido-coronavirus-school/#.XlfJtmhKg2w
>
[snip]

First they take a stringent measure, then immediately blow holes in it, by 
creating exemptions. 
[snip]
Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-27 Thread Jed Rothwell

Terry Blanton  wrote:

*All schools in Japan told to close until April over virus outbreak*
>

That is a very serious response. I am surprised they are going this far.

Here is an article by a political scientist in Japan who is outraged by the
Japanese government's response to the crisis:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/26/opinion/coronavirus-japan-abe.html

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-27 Thread Terry Blanton

*All schools in Japan told to close until April over virus outbreak*

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/02/27/national/hokkaido-coronavirus-school/#.XlfJtmhKg2w


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:16 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Here is some encouraging news. Look carefully at these graphs, especially
> the last two:
>
> Serious and Critical Cases
>
> Outcome of Cases (Recovery or Death)
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/
>
> Note that the first graph, "Total Cases (worldwide)" can be changed to the
> logarithmic format on the top tab.
>
>
> Main page:
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
>
>
> Meanwhile, in bad news, the Japanese press reports that some recovered
> patients may not be fully immune.
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-26 Thread Jed Rothwell

Here is some encouraging news. Look carefully at these graphs, especially
the last two:

Serious and Critical Cases

Outcome of Cases (Recovery or Death)

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/

Note that the first graph, "Total Cases (worldwide)" can be changed to the
logarithmic format on the top tab.


Main page:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


Meanwhile, in bad news, the Japanese press reports that some recovered
patients may not be fully immune.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-25 Thread Jed Rothwell

Somewhat good news, from the N.Y. Times:

A W.H.O. mission to China has said that the daily tally of new cases there
peaked and then plateaued between Jan. 23 and Feb. 2, and has steadily
declined since.

Chinese officials reported 508 new cases and 71 deaths as of Monday, a
slower pace than in previous days.


I do not trust the Chinese government, but I do trust their doctors and
medical establishment. I doubt there are wild exaggerations or a huge
cover-up. No doubt there are inaccuracies.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-24 Thread Terry Blanton

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-02-19-covid-19-coronavirus-found-to-contain-gain-of-function-for-efficient-spreading-human-population.html


On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 6:09 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:

> https://youtu.be/F_TPjbu4FAE
>
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 12:58 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>>
>> https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200224/Coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-Chinas-highest-biosafety-lab-next-door-to-market.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-24 Thread Terry Blanton

https://youtu.be/F_TPjbu4FAE

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 12:58 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:

>
> https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200224/Coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-Chinas-highest-biosafety-lab-next-door-to-market.aspx
>
>
>
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-24 Thread Terry Blanton

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200224/Coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-Chinas-highest-biosafety-lab-next-door-to-market.aspx



>
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-23 Thread Jed Rothwell

Jones Beene  wrote:

> It is possible that many flu deaths there could have been intentionally
> labeled as the known types, in order to prevent public panic.
>

I doubt it. Anyway, full-scale public panic is underway, so if that
happened, it did not work.

Panic is fully justified, in this case.

> For instance, in the USA our CDC estimates that so far this flu season
> there have been at least 29 million of the regular flue illnesses, 280,000
> hospitalizations and 16,000 *deaths. *
>
> That is huge!
>

It is a little above normal. Not huge.

You can project the likely number of people who will die in the U.S. if the
Wuhan flu become endemic here before a vaccine is developed and deployed.
40% of the U.S. adult population gets a flu shot, so it is immune to
seasonal flu. All doctors and nurses get the shot, so they can treat
patients with seasonal flu with no danger to themselves, and without
protective gear. There is no vaccination for the Wuhan flu, so 100% of the
population will be susceptible, including doctors and nurses. Assume 1/3 of
the population get the flu, which is approximately how many got the 1918
pandemic influenza. Assume the mortality rate is 2% instead of 0.1%. It
adds up to very roughly 300,000 deaths. Not as many as AIDS, 659,000, but
it will happen quickly, over a year or two.

> China is more than 4 times more populous than the USA and has
> sub-standard health care in many places . . .
>

Chinese hospitals in major cities are as good as any in the U.S. Overall,
Chinese healthcare is better, measured in infant mortality, longevity, and
other public health, especially when you consider how many men there still
smoke.

Chinese rural healthcare is bad, but nothing like the nightmare of U.S.
rural healthcare, which is below the standards of most third-world
countries.

Rich Americans live 20 years longer than poor Americans, and low-income
American men have approximately the longevity of men living in Sudan.
Several American counties have a shorter life expectancy than Cambodia does.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/22/opinion/sunday/china-united-states-health.html

American hospitals are filthy and dangerous. I was shocked by conditions
when I had to spend several hours in one waiting for treatment, with a
larger crowd of sick, miserable, coughing people. I was in considerable
pain after an accident, with bleeding and a sprain and swelling, in
Atlanta's number on hospital. I am used to Japanese standards. Walk into
any clinic or hospital in Japan, or anywhere else in the first world or
China, and the nurses would give you initial treatment to stop the
bleeding, prevent infection, and ice to reduce the pain. I got nothing for
a few hours. It wasn't a particularly busy time of day, or any kind of
crisis. In the event of a flu pandemic, our hospitals will be instantly
overwhelmed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/307617/

Before the crisis began, the Trump administration was trying to cut the CDC
and other health agency budgets by $3 billion. I suppose they will stop
that initiative. However, the people at the CDC are still overwhelmed and
underfunded. My office is next door to them and I know some of the people
there. They can't get enough refrigerators. They have a vaccine for SARS
that might be effective against the new Wuhan flu species, but they don't
have the money to test it.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-23 Thread Terry Blanton

Interesting, but mortality rates for influenza alone are less than 0.1%.

Iran reports 18.6% covid-19 mortality to date.
https://www.cnn.com/asia/live-news/coronavirus-outbreak-02-23-20-hnk-intl/index.html


Again 8/43 is a small population but the consistency is frightning.

On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 10:21 AM Jones Beene  wrote:

> Here is something else which statistically needs to be considered to
> assess the reliability of the official Wuflu death toll. Namely - what is
> the extent of fatalities of the "normal" flu in China this year? And also,
> how many citizens are infected with both types simultaneously?
>
> It is possible that many flu deaths there could have been intentionally
> labeled as the known types, in order to prevent public panic. For
> instance, in the USA our CDC estimates that so far this flu season there
> have been at least 29 million of the regular flue illnesses, 280,000
> hospitalizations and 16,000 *deaths. *
>
> That is huge! and possibly understated, but this background situation of
> many flue types in circulation has gone largely unreported in the analysis
> of our situation, since the flu season will go on for several more months.
> Many more deaths are expected here in the states -  even without the new
> corona cases, possibly double that toll.
>
> China is more than 4 times more populous than the USA and has
> sub-standard health care in many places, so it may be expected to already
> have seen 60,000-80,000 dead from the normal (non corona) variety of flu
> this season, yet this enormous death toll is not factored into the
> statistics yet.
>
> Considered in that context - it is easy to imagine that to avoid panic,
> doctors in China, especially in the rural areas, have been instructed to
> call every flu death a "normal" flu death if there is any doubt about it.
> And since the testing ability for the new virus is strained to the limit
> this year - there is going to be large doubt.
>
> Plus - do we know that a substantial percentage of persons cannot catch
> both types at the same time?
>
> Perhaps - most cases of Wuflu are very mild initially UNLESS the infected
> person already has been exposed to one of the known strains. It may require
> two infections to become fatal. Extrapolating from US numbers, there are
> already over 100 million normal flue infections and no reason that a second
> corona infection could not happen at the same time in part of that
> population, given the very long gestation period.
>
> If so, which strain of flu actually caused the fatality? Perhaps it is
> both. And are we really seeing the low mortality rates which are claimed,
> since we have not been accurately looking at the correct statistics?
>
>
> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>
> Italy reported 5 deaths in 28 cases.  Small population but it is close to
> the* rumored* Chinese death rate of 15.6%.
>
> I'm sure they actually have more cases uncounted yet.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-23 Thread Jones Beene

 Here is something else which statistically needs to be considered to assess 
the reliability of the official Wuflu death toll. Namely - what is the extent 
of fatalities of the "normal" flu in China this year? And also, how many 
citizens are infected with both types simultaneously?

It is possible that many flu deaths there could have been intentionally labeled 
as the known types, in order to prevent public panic. For instance, in the USA 
our CDC estimates that so far this flu season there have been at least 29 
million of the regular flue illnesses, 280,000 hospitalizations and 16,000 
deaths. 

That is huge! and possibly understated, but this background situation of many 
flue types in circulation has gone largely unreported in the analysis of our 
situation, since the flu season will go on for several more months. Many more 
deaths are expected here in the states -  even without the new corona cases, 
possibly double that toll.

China is more than 4 times more populous than the USA and has sub-standard 
health care in many places, so it may be expected to already have seen 
60,000-80,000 dead from the normal (non corona) variety of flu this season, yet 
this enormous death toll is not factored into the statistics yet. 

Considered in that context - it is easy to imagine that to avoid panic, doctors 
in China, especially in the rural areas, have been instructed to call every flu 
death a "normal" flu death  if there is any doubt about it. And since the 
testing ability for the new virus is strained to the limit this year - there is 
going to be large doubt.

Plus - do we know that a substantial percentage of persons cannot catch both 
types at the same time? 

Perhaps - most cases of Wuflu are very mild initially UNLESS the infected 
person already has been exposed to one of the known strains. It may require two 
infections to become fatal. Extrapolating from US numbers, there are already 
over 100 million normal flue infections and no reason that a second corona 
infection could not happen at the same time in part of that population, given 
the very long gestation period.

If so, which strain of flu actually caused the fatality? Perhaps it is both. 
And are we really seeing the low mortality rates which are claimed, since we 
have not been accurately looking at the correct statistics?


Terry Blanton wrote:  
 
  Italy reported 5 deaths in 28 cases.  Small population but it is close to the 
rumored Chinese death rate of 15.6%.
I'm sure they actually have more cases uncounted yet.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-22 Thread Terry Blanton

Italy reported 5 deaths in 28 cases.  Small population but it is close to
the* rumored* Chinese death rate of 15.6%.

I'm sure they actually have more cases uncounted yet.

>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-22 Thread Jürg Wyttenbach

That's exactly what I tell/explain people since some weeks.

If you charge underdogs with the crucial process of killing- cremation
of animals, then they will not understand that the control group or an
obviously not sickened animal cannot be eaten... If you advance 1
billion of people from middle ages to hyper modernity, then don't forget
your past, as it's still very close.
Already in the first serious gen analyses specialists found a gen marker
in cov-19 that one must buy on the market...

Cov-19 can no longer be stopped and thus it's important that people with
a weak immune system or an ongoing severe health condition take
precautions. Critical is the first dose you get, the lower the better.
One herb I can recommend is Sutherlandia as it's the only working,
natural anti retro viral drug with a proven track record in AIDS therapy.

And all others should take it like the usual flu and do not panic that's
how nature works. One day the cheating ends.

J.W.

Am 22.02.20 um 21:00 schrieb Jones Beene:
awkshully ... this looks like one of the Post's regular news stories
instead of an opinion...

... but as you say, it is the Post, not the Times

Yet even so, the reporting itself still could be mostly accurate. They
quote local sources which are far more believable than the official
Chinese propaganda machine ...

Terry Blanton wrote:

An opinion piece from The NY Post (considering the source):

https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/

but selling laboratory animals?!

--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr.22
8910 Affoltern a.A.
044 760 14 18
079 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-22 Thread Jones Beene

 awkshully ... this looks like one of the Post's regular news stories instead 
of an opinion...
... but as you say, it is the Post, not the Times
Yet even so, the reporting itself still could be mostly accurate. They quote 
local sources which are far more believable than the official Chinese 
propaganda machine ...



    Terry Blanton wrote:  
 
 An opinion piece from The NY Post (considering the source):
 
https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/
but selling laboratory animals?!

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-22 Thread Terry Blanton

An opinion piece from The NY Post (considering the source):


https://nypost.com/2020/02/22/dont-buy-chinas-story-the-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-a-lab/

but selling laboratory animals?!

>

RE: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-19 Thread Chris Zell

http://orthomolecular.activehosted.com/index.php?action=social=02522a2b2726fb0a03bb19f2d8d9524d.138=da1d33963e25ae5c7c900f389d9a5b13

This guy.  My personal experience is mixed. Sometimes Vitamin C does nothing 
but other times it can be quite dramatic – as when I got mononucleosis and it 
vanished in less than 3 days.

From: Jones Beene 
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 4:59 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

An effective and inexpensive treatment this virus is once again being promoted 
by the L Pauling crowd... this time, maybe more strongly than ever.

These zealots may not be medically correct - as the evidence goes both ways and 
is heavily anecdotal - but make no mistake, the C industry is a billion dollar 
success and growing in the USA - even despite not winning the battle for 
mainstream "professional" acceptance.

The public likes Vitamin C,  even if the MDs are skeptical and YouTube and the 
social networks are flooded with mostly positive info.

Bottom line ... valid evidence or not... count me in (to start mega-dosing with 
C), if the virus should spread to my county... which it probably will.

  Jonathan Berry wrote:

The other side of this is that the severe cases with treatment can
often be prevented from turning into fatalities.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-18 Thread Jonathan Berry

The fatality rate can increase x7 when there isn't healthcare.

https://youtu.be/gojy7ChZ8h8?t=721

So 2% x 7 = 14% fatality!

Now maybe the 2% figure is already increased by including Hubei, but
the point is that the death rate is going to be a whole lot higher
than many think if this gets bad

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 10:58 AM Jones Beene  wrote:
>
> An effective and inexpensive treatment this virus is once again being 
> promoted by the L Pauling crowd... this time, maybe more strongly than ever.
>
> These zealots may not be medically correct - as the evidence goes both ways 
> and is heavily anecdotal - but make no mistake, the C industry is a billion 
> dollar success and growing in the USA - even despite not winning the battle 
> for mainstream "professional" acceptance.
>
> The public likes Vitamin C,  even if the MDs are skeptical and YouTube and 
> the social networks are flooded with mostly positive info.
>
> Bottom line ... valid evidence or not... count me in (to start mega-dosing 
> with C), if the virus should spread to my county... which it probably will.
>
>
>   Jonathan Berry wrote:
>
>
> The other side of this is that the severe cases with treatment can
> often be prevented from turning into fatalities.
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-18 Thread Jones Beene

 An effective and inexpensive treatment this virus is once again being promoted 
by the L Pauling crowd... this time, maybe more strongly than ever.

These zealots may not be medically correct - as the evidence goes both ways and 
is heavily anecdotal - but make no mistake, the C industry is a billion dollar 
success and growing in the USA - even despite not winning the battle for 
mainstream "professional" acceptance. 

The public likes Vitamin C,  even if the MDs are skeptical and YouTube and the 
social networks are flooded with mostly positive info.

Bottom line ... valid evidence or not... count me in (to start mega-dosing with 
C), if the virus should spread to my county... which it probably will.


     Jonathan Berry wrote:  
 
 The other side of this is that the severe cases with treatment can
often be prevented from turning into fatalities.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-18 Thread Jonathan Berry

The other side of this is that the severe cases with treatment can
often be prevented from turning into fatalities.
But, when this wipes out the ability to get any medical help, the
death rate is going to go a lot closer to the rate of severe cases.

And that is a much much higher percentage than those who die.

In Wuhan according to China's own figures the percentage killed by the
Virus is 4% because of just this reality, and it could go higher or
already be higher.

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 9:20 AM Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>
> Jürg Wyttenbach  wrote:
>
>> But mortality is 2,3% for confirmed severe cases only not for the
>>
>> average infected ones. This, so far,  looks like being well below
>> influenza.
>
>
> I do not think so. I believe the 2.3% projection is for all cases, but I 
> agree it is probably too high. Because uncounted infections are more 
> prevalent than uncounted or misattributed deaths.
>
> Influenza is 0.1%. There is no way this is "well below" that. At least 1,770 
> people have died. If the rate is 0.1%, that means 1.8 million people have 
> been infected. That is implausible. They say there are 71,000 cases.
>
> The NY Times says:
>
> "An analysis of 44,672 coronavirus patients in China whose diagnoses were 
> confirmed by laboratory testing has found that 1,023 had died by Feb. 11, 
> which suggests a fatality rate of 2.3 percent."
>
>
> I doubt all 44,672 of those cases were severe. That would be very badly done 
> epidemiology. The people doing the study will try to find a representative 
> sample of patients, from mild to severe. As you see, the sample includes most 
> of the known patients and deaths on record.
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-18 Thread Jed Rothwell

Jürg Wyttenbach  wrote:

But mortality is 2,3% for confirmed severe cases only not for the
>
average infected ones. This, so far,  looks like being well below
> influenza.
>

I do not think so. I believe the 2.3% projection is for all cases, but I
agree it is probably too high. Because uncounted infections are more
prevalent than uncounted or misattributed deaths.

Influenza is 0.1%. There is no way this is "well below" that. At least
1,770 people have died. If the rate is 0.1%, that means 1.8 million people
have been infected. That is implausible. They say there are 71,000 cases.

The NY Times says:

"An analysis of 44,672 coronavirus patients in China whose diagnoses were
confirmed by laboratory testing has found that 1,023 had died by Feb. 11,
which suggests a fatality rate of 2.3 percent."

I doubt all 44,672 of those cases were severe. That would be very badly
done epidemiology. The people doing the study will try to find a
representative sample of patients, from mild to severe. As you see, the
sample includes most of the known patients and deaths on record.

RE: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-18 Thread bobcook39...@hotmail.com

Jones—

Nice find RE the biology item you identified written by a Wuhan scientist etal 
some years ago.

The current interview Dr Tara O'Toole: The CIA, National Security And 
Preventing The Next Pandemic – YouTube m is also informative regarding a
Possible basis for Sen. Cotton’s comments about WuFlu.

There are an increasing number of “dots” in understanding the current 
Coronavirus  outbreak/pandemic now being diagnosed worldwide.

The 1981 novel about a virus developed in Wuhan, China, a  virus called 
Wuhan-400 makes people terribly ill … by Dean Koontz,is a story with close 
similarity to current events!!!

Bob Cook




From: Jones Beene<mailto:jone...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 12:42 PM
To: vortex<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

U.S. Senator Tom Cotton (R-AR) has generated a lot of negative flak for 
promoting the idea that the WuFlu virus was a inadvertent release of a Chinese 
bioweapon. Could he know something that we do not?

Doubt it... but  Consider this paper on virus-engineering, published in a 
well-known journal almost 10 years ago !

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00705-010-0729-6

Essentially, the article has been claimed to provide a recipe for how to alter 
(or weaponize) the SARS virus using coronavirus proteins. The two are very 
similar.

Is there a connection to the present situation - or is Sen Cotton being 
irresponsible in blaming China? (or both?)

Notably one of the authors of the paper is a professor at the Wuhan Institute 
of Virology (his name is Dr. Shengli Shi)

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-18 Thread Jürg Wyttenbach


Am 18.02.20 um 16:49 schrieb Jed Rothwell:
"The virus. They are working hard. Looks like by April, you know in 
theory, when it gets a little warmer it miraculously goes away. Hope 
that's true! Rough stuff, I tell you. Rough, rough stuff."


This scenario is totally fringe as on the cruise ship at Yokohama the 
inside temperature is more than spring average and all folks on the ship 
did/will more or less get it.


But mortality is 2,3% for confirmed severe cases only not for the 
average infected ones. This, so far,  looks like being well below 
influenza.



J.W.

--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr.22
8910 Affoltern a.A.
044 760 14 18
079 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-18 Thread Jed Rothwell

Here is the latest news about the coronavirus pandemic.

The New York Times reports the mortality rate is now estimated at 2.3% by
the Chinese CDC. That compares to the rate of 0.1 for ordinary influenza.
The Times also reports that the Director of a hospital in Wuhan has died of
the disease. That is ominous because presumably he got the best possible
care. People who get first-class medical care seldom die from ordinary
influenza.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html

Courtesy of the Bloomberg campaign, here is Pres. Trump's take on the
coronavirus. Here is what Trump said in recent video:

"The virus. They are working hard. Looks like by April, you know in theory,
when it gets a little warmer it miraculously goes away. Hope that's true!
Rough stuff, I tell you. Rough, rough stuff."

Trump plans to cut the CDC and other world health budgets by $3 billion.

https://twitter.com/Mike2020/status/1227320432405221377

If an ordinary person on the bus said something like this, you would think
he is drunk or crazy, and you would move away from him.

It is true that influenza epidemics tend to abate in warmer months, but
they do not miraculously go away. Here is the mortality rate per month for
the 1918 - 1919 influenza epidemic in England:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#/media/File:1918_spanish_flu_waves.gif

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-15 Thread Terry Blanton

Some sanity returns:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/baseless-conspiracy-theories-claim-new-coronavirus-was-bioengineered/



>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-15 Thread Jones Beene

 Various informed sources, not simply the typical conspiracy theorists - seem 
to be suggesting that an effective cure or at least a remediation of symptoms - 
was known for some time - possibly months in advance. Time enough to produce a 
few million doses, maybe. Party members only need apply.

Anyway - the idea is emerging that the WuFlu is both very easily transmitted, 
but low mortality. 

Most of the world could be infected this year - yikes - but only a few million 
more deaths are expected to occur than in a normal flu season.

In other words, this virus is very much like the common cold or a mild seasonal 
flu, but... here is the crux of the situation... the effect of infection is 
possibly much deadlier for those who have another preexisting health issue... 
as in... they already present "a societal burden"
This means the elderly and poor will be hardest hit... since they cannot easily 
gain access to an effective treatment which will not be available to all.

Which leads the conspiracy nuts closer to promoting the idea that the episode 
was engineered from the start - for a mega-effect, a large scale change, 
possibly planned by some deep state influence... if you buy into that. 

This scenario probably makes more sense if you are in a severely overpopulated 
region which can ultimately benefit from these dynamics, as in the "roaring 
twenties" meme. 

This is becoming a perverse and misunderstood argument which will probably 
enter into US politics, sooner than we imagine. Maybe the blame-game has 
already started or it will as soon as a larger effect is seen here than at 
present.


Terry Blanton wrote:  
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJbK7IA6Bfw
So, they are treating covid-19 with Aluvia.  I wonder how they determined that 
would work, eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lopinavir/ritonavir

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-15 Thread Terry Blanton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJbK7IA6Bfw

So, they are treating covid-19 with Aluvia.  I wonder how they determined
that would work, eh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lopinavir/ritonavir

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

I would note that the fatality rate is going to depend on the level of
health care available!

So if things become overrun, the lethality rate double r more easily.

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 3:26 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>
> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>>
>> Those are quotes, not citations.
>
>
> Quotes from Chinese doctors who are treating people with the flu. That's 
> authoritative.
>
>
>>
>>   I was looking for a citation for your comment that "Most appear to be okay 
>> now."  I have seen quotes that the mortality rate is 15.6%.
>
>
> Surely not from authoritative sources?
>
> A few weeks ago experts in the Times said there was a very broad range of 
> estimates of mortality, but I think it has narrowed now. It was from 0.1 to 
> 5%. Not 15.6%.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/asia/china-coronavirus-contain.html
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

COVID might be able to be caught more than once and be worse the second time!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwJ5thwr4C8

Well that brings us the the practical methods of boosting the immune system.

I used to get flu's lots, but now very very seldom every get anything
and if I do it is more I think "maybe" I have a slight symptom but
then it disappears.   And it is because I have been doing things that
strengthen my immune system, many things over the years, natural
things.

So one thing is Vitamin D, this is one of if not the main reason
people get sick in winter, supplementing with D3 is safe and effective
as long as you don't take 50,000 IU for prolonged periods which causes
issues with calcium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_qmjTJ6RLQ

Then yes, there is Sodium chlorite, it has not been shown to be
terribly problematic on consumption, and it is a disinfectant and most
assuredly does kill things, likely this too.

Another to avoid infection is "Thieves Oil" which this one minute
video covers, it was apparently enough to protect robbers fro the
black plague.

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 11:53 AM Alain Sepeda  wrote:
>
> I've read other article that let hope less mortality, but it will be huge 
> because we don't realize millions of people already die every year.
>
> The ratio of dead over contaminated may be less dramatic , event if the 
> health care professional are well treated.
> 1- The reason is that people maybe be asymptomatic (it is a problem with that 
> virus which however stays contagious)
> 2- with time and propagation (through asymptomatic and slightly sick people) 
> the virus should lose mortality as seen often
>
> Nothing is sure but it is considered in many articles...
>
> Anyway, it is very contagious, and if the usual mortality of flu is expected 
> 0.1%, the 2.5 million death on the planet is a huge death toll... it may be 
> worse, not because of mortality only, but because more people are 
> contaminated than by usual flu...
>
> It may be few times if not a dozen times more than usual if the mortality is 
> high as seen for the health care workers... 10 million, 30 million as some 
> says...
>
> In France thus can be estimated as many times the usual 1 annual toll... 
> 5 ?
> or much less if people start to behave consistently, washing hand, not going 
> to work when sick, wearing mask when sick, and even if very sick, we may be 
> well treated with the experience of the Chinese doctors (there is some 
> helpful old drugs), or simply treating consistently the bacterial 
> complication like for flu... (for me as asthmatic it was antibiotic for my 
> January flu).
>
> My prediction is that we will nearly all catch it, and probably feel just a 
> cough... but for few of us it will be serious.
> Take care!
>
> Le ven. 14 févr. 2020 à 22:58, Terry Blanton  a écrit :
>>
>> Those are quotes, not citations.  I was looking for a citation for your 
>> comment that "Most appear to be okay now."  I have seen quotes that the 
>> mortality rate is 15.6%.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:57 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>>>
>>> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>>>

 On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jed Rothwell  
 wrote: ...Most appear to be okay now.  


 Citation?
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Peng and other researchers wrote that 40 health care professionals at 
>>> his hospital had been infected in January, a third of the cases included in 
>>> a study published last week in the Journal of the American Medical 
>>> Association. . . .
>>>
>>> Another doctor had started to show symptoms early last month, before 
>>> medical professionals knew to take extra precautions, according to the 
>>> state-run Health Times newspaper. He died this past Monday.
>>>
>>>
>>> . . . and some other articles.
>>>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

Terry Blanton  wrote:

> Those are quotes, not citations.
>

Quotes from Chinese doctors who are treating people with the flu. That's
authoritative.

>   I was looking for a citation for your comment that "Most appear to be
> okay now."  I have seen quotes that the mortality rate is 15.6%.
>

Surely not from authoritative sources?

A few weeks ago experts in the Times said there was a very broad range of
estimates of mortality, but I think it has narrowed now. It was from 0.1 to
5%. Not 15.6%.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/asia/china-coronavirus-contain.html

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-14 Thread Alain Sepeda

I've read other article that let hope less mortality, but it will be huge
because we don't realize millions of people already die every year.

The ratio of dead over contaminated may be less dramatic , event if the
health care professional are well treated.
1- The reason is that people maybe be asymptomatic (it is a problem with
that virus which however stays contagious)
2- with time and propagation (through asymptomatic and slightly sick
people) the virus should lose mortality as seen often

Nothing is sure but it is considered in many articles...

Anyway, it is very contagious, and if the usual mortality of flu is
expected 0.1%, the 2.5 million death on the planet is a huge death toll...
it may be worse, not because of mortality only, but because more people are
contaminated than by usual flu...

It may be few times if not a dozen times more than usual if the mortality
is high as seen for the health care workers... 10 million, 30 million as
some says...

In France thus can be estimated as many times the usual 1 annual
toll... 5 ?
or much less if people start to behave consistently, washing hand, not
going to work when sick, wearing mask when sick, and even if very sick, we
may be well treated with the experience of the Chinese doctors (there is
some helpful old drugs), or simply treating consistently the bacterial
complication like for flu... (for me as asthmatic it was antibiotic for my
January flu).

My prediction is that we will nearly all catch it, and probably feel just a
cough... but for few of us it will be serious.
Take care!

Le ven. 14 févr. 2020 à 22:58, Terry Blanton  a écrit :

> Those are quotes, not citations.  I was looking for a citation for your
> comment that "Most appear to be okay now."  I have seen quotes that the
> mortality rate is 15.6%.
>
> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:57 PM Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
>> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jed Rothwell 
>>> wrote: ...Most appear to be okay now.  
>>>
>>
>>> Citation?
>>>
>>
>> Dr. Peng and other researchers wrote that 40 health care professionals at
>> his hospital had been infected in January, a third of the cases included in
>> a study published last week in the Journal of the American Medical
>> Association. . . .
>>
>> Another doctor had started to show symptoms early last month, before
>> medical professionals knew to take extra precautions, according to the
>> state-run Health Times newspaper. He died this past Monday.
>>
>>
>> . . . and some other articles.
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

Those are quotes, not citations.  I was looking for a citation for your
comment that "Most appear to be okay now."  I have seen quotes that the
mortality rate is 15.6%.

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:57 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>
>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jed Rothwell 
>> wrote: ...Most appear to be okay now.  
>>
>
>> Citation?
>>
>
> Dr. Peng and other researchers wrote that 40 health care professionals at
> his hospital had been infected in January, a third of the cases included in
> a study published last week in the Journal of the American Medical
> Association. . . .
>
> Another doctor had started to show symptoms early last month, before
> medical professionals knew to take extra precautions, according to the
> state-run Health Times newspaper. He died this past Monday.
>
>
> . . . and some other articles.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-14 Thread mixent

In reply to  Jonathan Berry's message of Sat, 15 Feb 2020 10:31:40 +1300:
Hi,
[snip]
>To have any idea about how the number of infected and dead compare to
>the lethality of this Virus we need to know two things.
>The mean time it takes someone to die from the virus after it is
>recognized they have it...
>And when most of those healthcare workers were first recognized to be infected.
>
>We don't have anything like either of those numbers, but as it stands
>if you want to use recovered .vs dead it is about 18% die and 82%
>recover, not that that is perfectly accurate either.
>
>However maybe in the end we can presume that the true rate lies
>neither ate 1 or 2% not at 18% but somewhere in the middle.
[snip]
That would certainly explain the unprecedented measures the Chinese government 
is taking to control the spread of the
virus. IMO however, no measure can be perfectly effective. They may slow the 
spread, but eventually it will infect
everyone.

Regards,


Robin van Spaandonk

local asymmetry = temporary success

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

Oh, but there is one thing that might be more useful at estimating the
danger this disease represents than any numbers out of China...

And that is the fate of those infected outside of china, there is much
less chance for hiding those results.
But it could take some time before we have a clue what the real risk
is from that as that "experiment" is just beginning so to speak.

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 10:31 AM Jonathan Berry  wrote:
>
> To have any idea about how the number of infected and dead compare to
> the lethality of this Virus we need to know two things.
> The mean time it takes someone to die from the virus after it is
> recognized they have it...
> And when most of those healthcare workers were first recognized to be 
> infected.
>
> We don't have anything like either of those numbers, but as it stands
> if you want to use recovered .vs dead it is about 18% die and 82%
> recover, not that that is perfectly accurate either.
>
> However maybe in the end we can presume that the true rate lies
> neither ate 1 or 2% not at 18% but somewhere in the middle.
> And just what that rate is will hugely depend on the health of those infected.
>
> On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 9:57 AM Jed Rothwell  wrote:
> >
> > Terry Blanton  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jed Rothwell  
> >> wrote: ...Most appear to be okay now.  
> >>
> >>
> >> Citation?
> >
> >
> > Dr. Peng and other researchers wrote that 40 health care professionals at 
> > his hospital had been infected in January, a third of the cases included in 
> > a study published last week in the Journal of the American Medical 
> > Association. . . .
> >
> > Another doctor had started to show symptoms early last month, before 
> > medical professionals knew to take extra precautions, according to the 
> > state-run Health Times newspaper. He died this past Monday.
> >
> >
> > . . . and some other articles.
> >

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

To have any idea about how the number of infected and dead compare to
the lethality of this Virus we need to know two things.
The mean time it takes someone to die from the virus after it is
recognized they have it...
And when most of those healthcare workers were first recognized to be infected.

We don't have anything like either of those numbers, but as it stands
if you want to use recovered .vs dead it is about 18% die and 82%
recover, not that that is perfectly accurate either.

However maybe in the end we can presume that the true rate lies
neither ate 1 or 2% not at 18% but somewhere in the middle.
And just what that rate is will hugely depend on the health of those infected.

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 9:57 AM Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>
> Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote: 
>> ...Most appear to be okay now.  
>>
>>
>> Citation?
>
>
> Dr. Peng and other researchers wrote that 40 health care professionals at his 
> hospital had been infected in January, a third of the cases included in a 
> study published last week in the Journal of the American Medical Association. 
> . . .
>
> Another doctor had started to show symptoms early last month, before medical 
> professionals knew to take extra precautions, according to the state-run 
> Health Times newspaper. He died this past Monday.
>
>
> . . . and some other articles.
>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

Terry Blanton  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jed Rothwell 
> wrote: ...Most appear to be okay now.  
>

> Citation?
>

Dr. Peng and other researchers wrote that 40 health care professionals at
his hospital had been infected in January, a third of the cases included in
a study published last week in the Journal of the American Medical
Association. . . .

Another doctor had started to show symptoms early last month, before
medical professionals knew to take extra precautions, according to the
state-run Health Times newspaper. He died this past Monday.

. . . and some other articles.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:
...Most appear to be okay now.  

Citation?

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jones Beene  wrote:

> Info, some of it disturbing, but which looks authoritative - on the Wuhan
> situation... which doc keeps getting removed from the web by very skilled
> hackers.
>
> https://archive.is/QIBmE
>

So, Mr. Beene, if there is a Part I

>

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

Terry Blanton  wrote:

> The Chinese government reported that 1,700 health care workers have
> contracted the virus, and 6 have died. That is a mortality rate of 0.4%.
>
> A mortality rate cannot be determined without the number that recover.  We
> don't know that yet.
>

Ah, but we probably do know that number for the health care workers. 1,716
are reported ill. Most appear to be okay now. I think most got sick weeks
ago when they had not been warned of the danger, because the government was
covering up. I expect that number is accurate. More accurate than it would
be any other group because:

   1. They are right there in the hospital. They will not be overlooked.
   2. I expect they get priority treatment from their colleagues. Again,
   they will not be overlooked or undercounted.
   3. There are not many, so it is easy to keep track of them.
   4. The exact number, 1,716, indicates that someone is keeping a careful
   tally.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 11:48 AM Jed Rothwell 
wrote:...That's another 98,000 deaths, around 342,000 total. That would be
one of the worst epidemics in U.S. history. 

"The Spanish flu pandemic of 1918, the deadliest in history, infected an
estimated 500 million people worldwide—about one-third of the planet’s
population—and killed an estimated 20 million to 50 million victims,
including some 675,000 Americans. "

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/1918-flu-pandemic

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 11:48 AM Jed Rothwell  wrote:
The Chinese government reported that 1,700 health care workers have
contracted the virus, and 6 have died. That is a mortality rate of 0.4%.

A mortality rate cannot be determined without the number that recover.  We
don't know that yet.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-14 Thread Jones Beene

 Info, some of it disturbing, but which looks authoritative - on the Wuhan 
situation... which doc keeps getting removed from the web by very skilled 
hackers.

https://archive.is/QIBmE

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

The Chinese government reported that 1,700 health care workers have
contracted the virus, and 6 have died. That is a mortality rate of 0.4%. It
is about 4 times higher than ordinary flu. I think this is a reliable
estimate because they probably keep close track of health care workers, and
they probably give them the best treatment available. This is probably the
best estimate of mortality we have so far.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0…ia/china-coronavirus.html

Projecting that to the U.S.: in the U.S., ordinary influenza kills 12,000
to 61,000 per year, depending on how virulent it is. (How widespread it
becomes.) The Wuhan flu appears to be very virulent, based on what has
happened in Japan. So, a 0.4% mortality rate would kill approximately
61,000 * 4 = 244,000. But, you have to increase that by about 40%. In the
U.S., ~40% of adults get a flu shot, so they are nearly all immune. There
is no flu shot for Wuhan flu, so roughly 40% more people will get it.
That's another 98,000 deaths, around 342,000 total. That would be one of
the worst epidemics in U.S. history. In absolute numbers, it would be about
half the deaths of the Civil War, the worst war in U.S. history. It would
also be an economic and social disaster, as it already is in China.

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory

2020-02-14 Thread Jones Beene

 The Wiki article on this novel does not mention Wuhan-400. Has it been 
"sanitized"?
The Eyes of Darkness

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The Eyes of Darkness

A mother sends her son on a camping trip with a leader who has led this trip 
into the mountains 16 times before ...
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Terry Blanton wrote:  
 
 Reality imitates art:
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/arts-culture/article/3050481/virus-called-wuhan-400-makes-people-terribly-ill-dean-koontz
 
" The Eyes of Darkness, a 1981 thriller by bestselling suspense author Dean 
Koontz, tells of a Chinese military lab that creates a virus as part of its 
biological weapons programme. The lab is located in Wuhan, which lends the 
virus its name, Wuhan-400. A chilling literary coincidence or a case of writer 
as unwitting prophet? "

Re: [Vo]:More on the WuFlu conspiracy theory