Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and anti-Islamic propaganda
Hi, Dave, Yes, this is the problem that plagues those harmed by mis- or disinformation. If one ignores it, there will be a substantial number of people who believe it on the grounds that it was not refuted. If one does not ignore the disinformation and instead refutes it, by, of necessity, repeating the misinformation along with its counter, then the misinformation is more widely propagated. It is an age-old conundrum and one that has not been resolved yet by humankind. Balance is always nice, except when it is a compromise between truth and deception. There are ill-intentioned people out there who will deliberately use disinformation to harm others. Remember Neville Chamberlain? He naively sought compromise where none was desirable. So the conundrum continues. Maybe someday we'll figure out a way to solve it. Until then, those who propagate disinformation will always gain some advantage in conning people, whether refuted or not. Generally -- and I've been studying patterns of propaganda for several decades -- I find that refutation is best, with the intention of damaging the credibility of the source of disinformation. Of course, in this digital age, the source when discredited simply creates a new avatar is is again off to the races. Do you remember the boardwalk game whack-a-mole or somesuch? It seems o me an apt metaphor grin. Cheers, Lawry On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:49 AM, David Roberson wrote: Perhaps there is a problem with the spread of disinformation that you speak of, but did you consider that every time a response is generated, it just gives the subject more publicity? I have come to the conclusion that this is one of the problems within the US that leads to more violence being propagated. One awful act is repeated within the news for far too long which tends to make individuals that are seeking fame to act irrationally. It would have been better for nothing to have been said at any time about the event on public news. Unfortunately, politics usually becomes involved in such manners where there is a tendency to keep the issue alive far beyond reason. Those that continue the process should be held accountable for further problems akin to yelling fire in a crowded environment. Someone looking for an issue to set off their passions is not going to worry about any counters. They most likely will not balance what they read, but instead concentrate upon a narrow range of inputs that they find particularly offensive. This seems to be the nature of the beast, so it is in the best interest of all concerned to terminate the discussion at once and not keep repeating and consequently spreading the issue. For balance, you should also be concerned about the extreme negativity given to one of the Christian positions during the exchanges. I know that there are people reading the list that hold these types of views in serious contempt. This group in not the proper forum from which to conduct these types of activities and I plead that they be terminated. Dave -Original Message- From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 10:53 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and little girls. Hi, Eric, My motive for posting in Jojo's trolling is not quite the same as Abd ul-Rahman's. I worry about the campaign of disinformation that Islamo-phobes are spreading as widely as they can. It affects the ability of the American people and Europeans to understand issues pertaining to the Middle East, and so degrades the quality of our foreign policy. I know, not the concern of LENR list. But people on this list nonetheless and fortunately form opinions on other matters, and so the disinformation must (I say as a political scientist involved in US foreign policy issues, as well as an engaged LENR observer) be countered. And yes, I know that the disinformation is unfair to list members and the countering of it tedious, repetitious, and, to many, legitimately unwelcome. Hidden Islamophobic agendas and methods have spilled into our list. The matter that Abd ul-Rahman raises of the troll's posting being archived is a real one, even if we have had to waste time countering it. Short of stopping the Islamophobic trolling at its source, I don't know what else to do. Islamophobia is akin to anti-Semitism in its despicability, and one can make the argument easily that the former is a variant of the latter. We should accept neither. Lawry On Jan 2, 2013, at 11:22 PM, Eric Walker wrote: On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Oh, I'm quivering, shaking with the possibility that *Jed Rothwell* might filter me out. I am not going to subscribe to VortexB-l. This is supposedy a moderated list. If it stays unmoderated, I won't be here long. Hate to say it, but the troll is
Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and anti-Islamic propaganda
Why would muslims consider the truth about their prophet to be an insult. Muslim scholars acknowledge this truth and yet somehow, I am considered a liar with disinformation because I mention these things. How can truth be considered propaganda? By definition, propaganda is a lie. The truth may be insulting to muslims but it is hardly propaganda. Now calling the Bible a made up fiction - that's a lie, an insult, and propaganda. And I have suffered insults like that long long long before I even started mentioning these things about islam. Jojo - Original Message - From: de Bivort Lawrence To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and anti-Islamic propaganda Hi, Dave, Yes, this is the problem that plagues those harmed by mis- or disinformation. If one ignores it, there will be a substantial number of people who believe it on the grounds that it was not refuted. If one does not ignore the disinformation and instead refutes it, by, of necessity, repeating the misinformation along with its counter, then the misinformation is more widely propagated. It is an age-old conundrum and one that has not been resolved yet by humankind. Balance is always nice, except when it is a compromise between truth and deception. There are ill-intentioned people out there who will deliberately use disinformation to harm others. Remember Neville Chamberlain? He naively sought compromise where none was desirable. So the conundrum continues. Maybe someday we'll figure out a way to solve it. Until then, those who propagate disinformation will always gain some advantage in conning people, whether refuted or not. Generally -- and I've been studying patterns of propaganda for several decades -- I find that refutation is best, with the intention of damaging the credibility of the source of disinformation. Of course, in this digital age, the source when discredited simply creates a new avatar is is again off to the races. Do you remember the boardwalk game whack-a-mole or somesuch? It seems o me an apt metaphor grin. Cheers, Lawry On Jan 3, 2013, at 11:49 AM, David Roberson wrote: Perhaps there is a problem with the spread of disinformation that you speak of, but did you consider that every time a response is generated, it just gives the subject more publicity? I have come to the conclusion that this is one of the problems within the US that leads to more violence being propagated. One awful act is repeated within the news for far too long which tends to make individuals that are seeking fame to act irrationally. It would have been better for nothing to have been said at any time about the event on public news. Unfortunately, politics usually becomes involved in such manners where there is a tendency to keep the issue alive far beyond reason. Those that continue the process should be held accountable for further problems akin to yelling fire in a crowded environment. Someone looking for an issue to set off their passions is not going to worry about any counters. They most likely will not balance what they read, but instead concentrate upon a narrow range of inputs that they find particularly offensive. This seems to be the nature of the beast, so it is in the best interest of all concerned to terminate the discussion at once and not keep repeating and consequently spreading the issue. For balance, you should also be concerned about the extreme negativity given to one of the Christian positions during the exchanges. I know that there are people reading the list that hold these types of views in serious contempt. This group in not the proper forum from which to conduct these types of activities and I plead that they be terminated. Dave -Original Message- From: de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 10:53 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and little girls. Hi, Eric, My motive for posting in Jojo's trolling is not quite the same as Abd ul-Rahman's. I worry about the campaign of disinformation that Islamo-phobes are spreading as widely as they can. It affects the ability of the American people and Europeans to understand issues pertaining to the Middle East, and so degrades the quality of our foreign policy. I know, not the concern of LENR list. But people on this list nonetheless and fortunately form opinions on other matters, and so the disinformation must (I say as a political scientist involved in US foreign policy issues, as well as an engaged LENR observer) be countered. And yes, I know that the disinformation is unfair to list members and the countering of it tedious, repetitious, and, to many, legitimately unwelcome. Hidden Islamophobic agendas and methods have spilled into our list. The matter
