Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: Aren’t there waste fluids from fossil fuel drilling that haven’t been exploited for lithium as yet? I recall that this has been brought up in the past. If we have cold fusion there will not be much drilling for fossil fuels. I think it will be cheaper, safer and more convenient to synthesize hydrocarbons from garbage and other sources, using thermal depolymerization. This is already being done, partly as a way to reduce the waste stream.
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: Based on previous energy analyses posted, I am sure Jed would be better suited to comment on the issue of the lithium economy and peak lithium. I doubt this would be a problem. Even in lithium batteries, the lithium is not disintegrated when wearing out the battery. When a Li battery is no longer capable of operating at an acceptable capacity (usually due to in-optimum re-crystallization on recharging), the Li could be recovered the way lead is recovered in lead acid battery recycling industry today. By the time a Li based LENR technology hits the market, there could be a thousand years worth of Li for LENR that had already been mined for battery use that could just be extracted from the Li battery recycling. The demand for batteries might fall, depending on how responsive the cold fusion reaction is. If you can dial up more heat from instantly then the battery buffer in an automobile would be small, similar to a Prius. If it takes 10 minutes to increase the heat to peak levels, then you need a large battery buffer, similar to that of a plug-in hybrid vehicle. It would have be enough to drive the car for 10 minutes at top speed on batteries alone. The same rule applies to things like home generators. In the distant future I hope we can mind asteroids and other off-earth sources. There is not much lithium in ocean water: http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm 0.170 ppm. Granted, it is a lot more abundant than copper, nickel, gold or palladium. In my book I discussed extracting elements from massive desalination projects. The main ones with commercial value can seen on this table: Mg, S, K, Ca and Br. I guess ordinary salt, as well, NaCl. People already extract that from seawater. Of course that is by far the most abundant chemical in seawater. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
Aren’t there waste fluids from fossil fuel drilling that haven’t been exploited for lithium as yet? I recall that this has been brought up in the past.
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
Based on previous energy analyses posted, I am sure Jed would be better suited to comment on the issue of the lithium economy and peak lithium. Even in lithium batteries, the lithium is not disintegrated when wearing out the battery. When a Li battery is no longer capable of operating at an acceptable capacity (usually due to in-optimum re-crystallization on recharging), the Li could be recovered the way lead is recovered in lead acid battery recycling industry today. By the time a Li based LENR technology hits the market, there could be a thousand years worth of Li for LENR that had already been mined for battery use that could just be extracted from the Li battery recycling. Of course, LENR will consume some Li, so the Li is not 100% recoverable from the fuel cartridges, but in practice, even battery recycling is not 100% efficient. I suspect the percentage of the Li consumed in LENR will be about the same as the inefficiency in Li recycling for batteries. Also, when Li is consumed in LENR on a large scale, it will be interesting to see what harvest-able materials become available as a byproduct of the reaction. Will the reaction generate copious 4He, 3He, D2, T2, Be, etc. that could be sold to pay for more Li? A new industry will develop to monetize the recycling. Bob Higgins On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 4:12 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Lewan Mats's message of Mon, 8 Jun 2015 07:05:31 +: Hi, [snip] Predicted lithium shortages are leading to novel technologies for recovering the element, now found mostly in salt lakes in South America. http://www.technologyreview.com/news/538036/quest-to-mine-seawater-for-lithium-advances/ How would lithium shortages affect a Li-Ni-H based LENR process? Or the contrary? I think that Li based LENR produces so much energy that it would support a Li price that is more than adequate to enable extraction from sea water. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
Such wells will remain for some time as converting over will be rapid ( if capital is available) but not immediate. There can be huge savings right now from converting commercial vehicles over to natural gas but many companies seem to drag their feet. Wells can be used as a petrochemical feedstock although with oil greatly reduced in price. Even after that, some wells may continue to be available for pumping fluids held within. They may continue to seek Helium form such wells – until LENR opens the way for commercial production of He ! From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2015 10:30 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.commailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: Aren’t there waste fluids from fossil fuel drilling that haven’t been exploited for lithium as yet? I recall that this has been brought up in the past. If we have cold fusion there will not be much drilling for fossil fuels. I think it will be cheaper, safer and more convenient to synthesize hydrocarbons from garbage and other sources, using thermal depolymerization. This is already being done, partly as a way to reduce the waste stream.
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 9 Jun 2015 10:39:37 -0400: Hi, [snip] http://www.seafriends.org.nz/oceano/seawater.htm 0.170 ppm. Granted, it is a lot more abundant than copper, nickel, gold or palladium. At the current rate of World energy usage, and assuming only 33% conversion efficiency (i.e. 6 MeV / Li atom), that would last us for 34 million years. Of course, if the Li is acting as a nuclear ferry boat transferring neutrons from one isotope to another, then it would last much longer. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
mix...@bigpond.com wrote: 0.170 ppm. Granted, it is a lot more abundant than copper, nickel, gold or palladium. At the current rate of World energy usage, and assuming only 33% conversion efficiency (i.e. 6 MeV / Li atom), that would last us for 34 million years. Do you mean that is how long the supply in the ocean would last? That is not a valid method. As you extract lithium from the ocean and the concentration goes down, it would get harder and harder to extract more. It isn't as if you move all the water in world from one bowl to another as you extract the lithium. I guess you would start to see a decrease after a million years or so. By that time, extraterrestrial sources should be available. Heck, I expect they will be available in a few hundred years, or sooner. I hope that all extraction and manufacturing moves off-earth, with delivery by space elevator. Or by anti-gravity flying machines. Something quiet, and much safer than rockets. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 2:54 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Of course, if the Li is acting as a nuclear ferry boat transferring neutrons from one isotope to another, then it would last much longer. I like this take on things; I wonder whether there is anything special about lithium apart from the fact that it can serve as a mechanism for transferring neutrons and is not very heavy. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 9 Jun 2015 20:59:39 -0400: Hi, [snip] mix...@bigpond.com wrote: 0.170 ppm. Granted, it is a lot more abundant than copper, nickel, gold or palladium. At the current rate of World energy usage, and assuming only 33% conversion efficiency (i.e. 6 MeV / Li atom), that would last us for 34 million years. Do you mean that is how long the supply in the ocean would last? Yes. That is not a valid method. As you extract lithium from the ocean and the concentration goes down, it would get harder and harder to extract more. True, but it would be 17 million years before it was twice as difficult as now, and I don't think that twice as difficult would be a real impediment. Consider that they are already looking at ways to extract it that would be economically viable at the current Lithium price, or a bit higher, while the energy value of the Lithium is something like 22000 times higher than the actual cost of the metal (assuming a value for the electricity of 5 cents / kWh). In short extraction of the metal to be used as a fusion fuel would be cheap enough to extract almost all of it, and that's just using technology that we know about now. Besides, the concentration in the rocks and soil is abut 20 times higher than in sea water, so we may end up just extracting it from the ground rather than from sea water. (Whichever is cheaper.) Furthermore, I think that if we don't have full control over all kinds of transmutation reactions in 17 million years, then there is little hope for humanity. Other transmutation (fusion) reactions would deliver energy for trillions of years (not a typo), by which time the Earth would long have been swallowed by the Sun anyway. (There is much more energy in the Deuterium content of water, and also in the Boron content of sea water, and these are just the easy ones. The H content would last thousands of times longer than the D content.) It isn't as if you move all the water in world from one bowl to another as you extract the lithium. I guess you would start to see a decrease after a million years or so. By that time, extraterrestrial sources should be available. Heck, I expect they will be available in a few hundred years, or sooner. I hope that all extraction and manufacturing moves off-earth, with delivery by space elevator. Or by anti-gravity flying machines. Something quiet, and much safer than rockets. - Jed Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
In reply to Eric Walker's message of Tue, 9 Jun 2015 20:33:56 -0700: Hi, [snip] On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 2:54 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Of course, if the Li is acting as a nuclear ferry boat transferring neutrons from one isotope to another, then it would last much longer. I like this take on things; I wonder whether there is anything special about lithium apart from the fact that it can serve as a mechanism for transferring neutrons and is not very heavy. Eric Maybe the fact that it only has three electrons, all of which are readily replaced by Hydrinohydride ions, resulting in a very small molecular entity that can get close to other nuclei? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
In reply to Lewan Mats's message of Mon, 8 Jun 2015 07:05:31 +: Hi, [snip] Predicted lithium shortages are leading to novel technologies for recovering the element, now found mostly in salt lakes in South America. http://www.technologyreview.com/news/538036/quest-to-mine-seawater-for-lithium-advances/ How would lithium shortages affect a Li-Ni-H based LENR process? Or the contrary? I think that Li based LENR produces so much energy that it would support a Li price that is more than adequate to enable extraction from sea water. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
Predicted lithium shortages are leading to novel technologies for recovering the element, now found mostly in salt lakes in South America. http://www.technologyreview.com/news/538036/quest-to-mine-seawater-for-lithium-advances/ How would lithium shortages affect a Li-Ni-H based LENR process? Or the contrary? Mats www.animpossibleinvention.comhttp://www.animpossibleinvention.com
Re: [Vo]:Quest to Mine Seawater for Lithium Advances
I am asking the same in my issue of Ego Out today. We can hope that Li based batteries will be slowly replaced with better sources. Peter On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Lewan Mats mats.le...@nyteknik.se wrote: Predicted lithium shortages are leading to novel technologies for recovering the element, now found mostly in salt lakes in South America. http://www.technologyreview.com/news/538036/quest-to-mine-seawater-for-lithium-advances/ How would lithium shortages affect a Li-Ni-H based LENR process? Or the contrary? Mats www.animpossibleinvention.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
