[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Thanks Nick, your suggestions and help regarding such an assessment would be welcome. Note this project differs from the Planktos scheme in that the crop is not left to rot and drop to the ocean bottom, and in that iron or any artificial fertilization may not be needed: considering the extensive scale of the project bio sargassum growing is clearly an option. As mentioned earlier there might be issues with eels and sea turtles regarding their reproduction and migration under cover of the floating sargassum mats. OTOH there would be more such shelter if anything, so it isn't clear if it would be a problem. Regarding the choice of the biofuel, it occurred to me that doing the conversion on land as in the latest scheme discussed would allow processes requiring longer processing times and larger plant areas, such as methane generation: http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=sargassum+methane All interested in taking an active part in pushing this Gyre grown and conveyed seaweed concept further, please contact me privately: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Michel - Original Message - From: Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre Michel wrote: Back on topic, talking about unedible things, you don't happen to have Sir Branson's ear by any chance? Think he might be interested in this Bermuda based N.A. Gyre cultivation nonsense? Richard Branson's ear? If only... As far as the Sargasso seaweed cultivation goes isn't it just a larger, more elaborate version of the Planktos idea? It would be great if a full and proper environmental risk/benefit assessment was carried out in advance and gave it a clean bill of health. Sometimes schemes like this, designed to be a solution to one problem, can have deleterious effects that outweigh the benefits. In short, they can cause more problems than they solve.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Michel wrote: Back on topic, talking about unedible things, you don't happen to have Sir Branson's ear by any chance? Think he might be interested in this Bermuda based N.A. Gyre cultivation nonsense? Richard Branson's ear? If only... As far as the Sargasso seaweed cultivation goes isn't it just a larger, more elaborate version of the Planktos idea? It would be great if a full and proper environmental risk/benefit assessment was carried out in advance and gave it a clean bill of health. Sometimes schemes like this, designed to be a solution to one problem, can have deleterious effects that outweigh the benefits. In short, they can cause more problems than they solve.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Michel, are you absolutely sure that you are French? You don't want to eat your horse and your English is better than that of most native speakers... I think the point was that the *water* began to run out and horses drink a lot of it so, to conserve supplies, they get thrown over first...
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
You are too indulgent Nick. Not so many French eat horse meat actually, I would say much less than one in ten. I had got the point about the water, I still think it would have made more sense to eat the horses than just throw them over board... but of course I wouldn't expect an Englishman, vegetarian moreover, to agree to that ;) Back on topic, talking about unedible things, you don't happen to have Sir Branson's ear by any chance? Think he might be interested in this Bermuda based N.A. Gyre cultivation nonsense? Michel - Original Message - From: Nick Palmer To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre Michel, are you absolutely sure that you are French? You don't want to eat your horse and your English is better than that of most native speakers... I think the point was that the *water* began to run out and horses drink a lot of it so, to conserve supplies, they get thrown over first...
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
At the risk of stirring up another Hundred Years' War, let me opine that the British Taboo on horse meat seems to be fairly recent, or else ignored in Yorkshire, and now has evolved into an item of jealous yearning ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551693/The-merits-of-horse-meat.html I seriously doubt that any uneaten horse was ever tossed overboard - in the entire history of the Admiralty ... However, with our beloved Kentucky Derby set to begin in a few hours, I will refrain from any culinary review of this gourmet delicacy ... --- Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michel, are you absolutely sure that you are French? You don't want to eat your horse and your English is better than that of most native speakers... I think the point was that the *water* began to run out and horses drink a lot of it so, to conserve supplies, they get thrown over first...
RE: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Hmmm...would that be fast food? Lawry -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 10:39 AM To: vortex Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre At the risk of stirring up another Hundred Years' War, let me opine that the British Taboo on horse meat seems to be fairly recent, or else ignored in Yorkshire, and now has evolved into an item of jealous yearning ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1551693/The-merits-of-horse-meat.html I seriously doubt that any uneaten horse was ever tossed overboard - in the entire history of the Admiralty ... However, with our beloved Kentucky Derby set to begin in a few hours, I will refrain from any culinary review of this gourmet delicacy ... --- Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michel, are you absolutely sure that you are French? You don't want to eat your horse and your English is better than that of most native speakers... I think the point was that the *water* began to run out and horses drink a lot of it so, to conserve supplies, they get thrown over first...
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
The mobile line sniffing harvesting head could perhaps squash the sargassum (e.g. using counter-rotating rolls touching each other at the water surface), which would burst most of the little gas bags serving as floats for the weed, allowing a slow water current pumped in from the land station to transport the now zero flotation harvest through the sea line to the processing plant. The sea line could be assorted with a power line bringing electric power to the Eye roaming harvesting head, which could alternatively draw its power from said water current powered by the land station. Our original (at least wrt the patent I posted) scheme of not seeding where we harvest (at the Eye), but rather upstream at the outskirts of the Gyre, and advantageously one full turn upstream, in the Gulf Stream somewhere between Bermuda and the US coast for the case of the NA Gyre, turns out to be particularly judicious as nutrients naturally rise from the depths there (upwelling phenomenon): http://earth.usc.edu/~slund/systems/topic4.html : --- As currents move north as western boundary currents or south as eastern boundary currents (in the northern hemisphere), they are deflected by the Coriolis force toward the open ocean. This allows deeper water to rise to the ocean surface to replace it producing upwelling. This can also occur if there are strong prevailing winds blowing from the continent toward the ocean. Thermohaline circulation primarily affects water in the deep oceans below the zone of surface ocean circulation. It produces nutrient-rich waters that rise to the surface during upwelling. The surface water is thickest in the central ocean gyres like the Sargasso Sea. The central gyres are warm, saline, low-nutrient waters with low biological productivity. -- Also of course, as already mentioned, seeding at the outskirt one full turn ahead allows benefiting from the largest possible sunlight and CO2 collecting growing area, while making the system as compact as possible and thus doable with a pair of relatively short (~500 km each?) sea lines, which could be suspended from floats at say 100m depth as discussed before, and could be relatively rigid except the last say 100 km of the harvesting one, which need to be flexible for mobility within the Eye area. Things seem to be falling into place nicely, could this indicate this gigantic terraforming (well, aquaforming) enterprise might actually make sense? Michel P.S. Anyone knows why the latitudes at which we would be harvesting (30-35°) are called the Horse Latitudes? - Original Message - From: Michel Jullian To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre It occurred to me that lateral motion capability of the robotic head of the midwater submerged harvesting sea line (remember the giant worms in Dune? ;) would be a good thing anyway, as it would allow snorting the lines of sargassum, as this seaweed self-organizes in linear slicks as seen on these photos: http://www.physorg.com/news100350969.html http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070606113421.htm Above photos are in Gulf of Mexico, the only satellite view of sargassum in the Sargasso Sea I have found for now is this detail view of an eddy in the gulf stream: http://epod.usra.edu/archive/epodviewer.php3?oid=347712 Pointers to wide view photos (sat or aerial) of the weed in the Eye area would be welcome. Michel - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 1:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:58:17 +0200: Hi, [snip] Good point Richard, neither would I, nor would any robotic platform... Maybe we could envisage sufficient flexibility in the mooring scheme (maybe some kind of semi-dynamic mooring, static most of the time, dynamic=motorized when needed) to move out of the way of the hurricane? [snip] It just needs to be submerged enough to get it out of the way. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
It occurred to me that lateral motion capability of the robotic head of the midwater submerged harvesting sea line (remember the giant worms in Dune? ;) would be a good thing anyway, as it would allow snorting the lines of sargassum, as this seaweed self-organizes in linear slicks as seen on these photos: http://www.physorg.com/news100350969.html http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070606113421.htm Above photos are in Gulf of Mexico, the only satellite view of sargassum in the Sargasso Sea I have found for now is this detail view of an eddy in the gulf stream: http://epod.usra.edu/archive/epodviewer.php3?oid=347712 Pointers to wide view photos (sat or aerial) of the weed in the Eye area would be welcome. Michel - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 1:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:58:17 +0200: Hi, [snip] Good point Richard, neither would I, nor would any robotic platform... Maybe we could envisage sufficient flexibility in the mooring scheme (maybe some kind of semi-dynamic mooring, static most of the time, dynamic=motorized when needed) to move out of the way of the hurricane? [snip] It just needs to be submerged enough to get it out of the way. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Yes, it might be feasible too. Other objections to the no-ship, two sea-lines variant of the scheme? The cost maybe, anyone got any idea of how much it would cost? Jones? Michel - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 1:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:58:17 +0200: Hi, [snip] Good point Richard, neither would I, nor would any robotic platform... Maybe we could envisage sufficient flexibility in the mooring scheme (maybe some kind of semi-dynamic mooring, static most of the time, dynamic=motorized when needed) to move out of the way of the hurricane? [snip] It just needs to be submerged enough to get it out of the way. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Michel Speaking of getting the Eye of the Gyre concept into full-motion, hurricane style, have you pushed the idea to that other famous Frenchman named Michel: Jean-Michel Cousteau is of course the famous, environmentalist, educator, film producer and son of ocean explorer Jacques-Yves Cousteau ... In 1999, He launched Ocean Futures Society which ought to be the perfect sponsor for harvesting the bounty of the oceans to help mitigate global warming ... http://www.oceanfutures.org/ BUT which organization, unfortunately, seems to be far more concerned with buttering-up to celebrities and raising capital for lame PR projects - than doing real work- like saving the oceans. I have a feeling that Jacques Cousteau, even though himself a PR man at heart (and self-promoter), would be greatly disappointed in the real work being done today by his namesake Jones
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Jones, Haven't approached any sponsor, I count on you to take a leading part in the idea-pushing effort when we'll deem the concept presentable. Who knows, Sir Richard might be interested in cultivating the hitherto virgin atlantic, from a British territory moreover ;-) Regarding supplemental fertilizing (in addition to process residues), we may well be lucky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Bermuda The island is thinly-covered by a red soil, high in iron... This should be expected of a volcanic island I guess, if we need more iron we'll just have to wake up the volcano ;) Michel - Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre Michel Speaking of getting the Eye of the Gyre concept into full-motion, hurricane style, have you pushed the idea to that other famous Frenchman named Michel: Jean-Michel Cousteau is of course the famous, environmentalist, educator, film producer and son of ocean explorer Jacques-Yves Cousteau ... In 1999, He launched Ocean Futures Society which ought to be the perfect sponsor for harvesting the bounty of the oceans to help mitigate global warming ... http://www.oceanfutures.org/ BUT which organization, unfortunately, seems to be far more concerned with buttering-up to celebrities and raising capital for lame PR projects - than doing real work- like saving the oceans. I have a feeling that Jacques Cousteau, even though himself a PR man at heart (and self-promoter), would be greatly disappointed in the real work being done today by his namesake Jones
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Even better, let's close the loop! Instead of far away (e.g. Azores) seeding, we could use a second sea line (underwater pipeline) to reject seeds, process residues with fertilizing value, and any additional fertilizer, from the processing station (e.g. Bermuda, or a floating platform not unlike a deep sea oil platform) to a nearby seeding point which will ensure a complete spiral orbit of the crop. In the case of the NA gyre this would be some point between the US Atlantic coast and Bermuda, or even on the US coast, or even on the Bermuda coast. The processing station would be advantageously somewhere between, or at any extremity of a straight line between the harvesting point (the Eye) and the seeding point... What do you think, fellow Gyre Farming enthusiasts? Michel - Original Message - From: Michel Jullian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 11:47 AM Subject: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre Indeed Vorts we can do better than this: zero ship time! We already found how to seed/fertilize directly from land (e.g. from the Azores, cf quoted post below). But _even harvesting_ could be done without any ship: we could install a fixed harvesting robot, or cluster of harvesting robots, at the Eye (where the crop converges automagically by vortical effect, remember?), connected to an underwater Sea Line (not necessarily resting on the deep ocean bottom: with an ad hoc anchoring scheme it could be arranged to float in midwater say at 100m depth to save on total length) which would convey the harvest, whether raw or pre-processed of fully processed to biofuel, to the nearest land (e.g. Bermuda). Michel - Original Message - From: Michel Jullian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:46 AM Subject: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre I wrote: We seed the appropriate algae species directly off an island coast somewhere upstream e.g. in Azores, the field widens by diffusion and grows while it gyres clockwise in subtropical temperatures and insolation, and it concentrates again by vortical effect in the eye of the gyre SE of Bermuda a few hundred days later for harvesting... plausible? ...
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Howdy Michel, I wouldn't want to be suspended way out there on a guywire when a catagory 5 hurricane comes visiting. Richard Michel wrote, Even better, let's close the loop! Instead of far away (e.g. Azores) seeding, we could use a second sea line (underwater pipeline) to reject seeds, process residues with fertilizing value, and any additional fertilizer, from the processing station (e.g. Bermuda, or a floating platform not unlike a deep sea oil platform) to a nearby seeding point which will ensure a complete spiral orbit of the crop. In the case of the NA gyre this would be some point between the US Atlantic coast and Bermuda, or even on the US coast, or even on the Bermuda coast. The processing station would be advantageously somewhere between, or at any extremity of a straight line between the harvesting point (the Eye) and the seeding point... What do you think, fellow Gyre Farming enthusiasts? Michel
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Good point Richard, neither would I, nor would any robotic platform... Maybe we could envisage sufficient flexibility in the mooring scheme (maybe some kind of semi-dynamic mooring, static most of the time, dynamic=motorized when needed) to move out of the way of the hurricane? Michel - Original Message - From: R C Macaulay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre Howdy Michel, I wouldn't want to be suspended way out there on a guywire when a catagory 5 hurricane comes visiting. Richard Michel wrote, Even better, let's close the loop! Instead of far away (e.g. Azores) seeding, we could use a second sea line (underwater pipeline) to reject seeds, process residues with fertilizing value, and any additional fertilizer, from the processing station (e.g. Bermuda, or a floating platform not unlike a deep sea oil platform) to a nearby seeding point which will ensure a complete spiral orbit of the crop. In the case of the NA gyre this would be some point between the US Atlantic coast and Bermuda, or even on the US coast, or even on the Bermuda coast. The processing station would be advantageously somewhere between, or at any extremity of a straight line between the harvesting point (the Eye) and the seeding point... What do you think, fellow Gyre Farming enthusiasts? Michel
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:58:17 +0200: Hi, [snip] Good point Richard, neither would I, nor would any robotic platform... Maybe we could envisage sufficient flexibility in the mooring scheme (maybe some kind of semi-dynamic mooring, static most of the time, dynamic=motorized when needed) to move out of the way of the hurricane? [snip] It just needs to be submerged enough to get it out of the way. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
Thanks Robin, good point. If this was a problem, hopefully other Gyres won't have such restrictions. Michel - Original Message - From: Robin van Spaandonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 5:14 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Tue, 15 Apr 2008 02:02:43 +0200: Hi, [snip] I have a vague recollection of the Sargasso see being a protected marine environment. That may restrict what you can do. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Eye of the Gyre --- Michel The Pacific Gyre, from the site you found - looks like we can harvest plastic ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch Yes indeed, we might even get paid for that! Jones BTW a 'gyre' is a kind of 'vortex' ... bit of serendipity there... Yep, hence 'Vortigro', vortical grow :) (as a response to 'Vertigro') So, how do you like this place for our North Atlantic operations headquarters: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qhl=engeocode=q=bermuda+islandjsv=107sll=32.324276,-66.796875sspn=43.078993,56.953125ie=UTF8ll=32.301063,-64.786377spn=21.796966,28.476562t=hz=5 Michel BTW, is it me or has Google Maps increased the resolution of their satellite views again? In my neighbor's swimming pool you can actually count the steps, in my garden you can see very clearly the tufts of grass... this is getting a bit indiscreet.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
--- Michel Jullian wrote: So, how do you like this place for our North Atlantic operations headquarters: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qhl=engeocode=q=bermuda+islandjsv=107sll=32.324276,-66.796875sspn=43.078993,56.953125ie=UTF8ll=32.301063,-64.786377spn=21.796966,28.476562t=hz=5 ... only one or two things not to like about Bermuda. Here is one of them- also very vortexian: http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/oceancolor/images/Sep62003_FabianErodesBermuda.jpg
[Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 1:24 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre --- Michel Jullian wrote: So, how do you like this place for our North Atlantic operations headquarters: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qhl=engeocode=q=bermuda+islandjsv=107sll=32.324276,-66.796875sspn=43.078993,56.953125ie=UTF8ll=32.301063,-64.786377spn=21.796966,28.476562t=hz=5 ... only one or two things not to like about Bermuda. Here is one of them- also very vortexian: http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/oceancolor/images/Sep62003_FabianErodesBermuda.jpg Indeed, we'll have to sail clear of this particular kind of vortices (which, by our action, we should make less formidable BTW) with our giant harvesting catamarans if we don't want them to end up belly up. But for our harvesting purposes, Bermuda seems the right place doesn't it? We seed the appropriate algae species directly off an island coast somewhere upstream e.g. in Azores, the field widens by diffusion and grows while it gyres clockwise in subtropical temperatures and insolation, and it concentrates again by vortical effect in the eye of the gyre SE of Bermuda a few hundred days later for harvesting... plausible? Michel
Re: [Vo]:Re: Eye of the Gyre
In reply to Michel Jullian's message of Tue, 15 Apr 2008 02:02:43 +0200: Hi, [snip] I have a vague recollection of the Sargasso see being a protected marine environment. That may restrict what you can do. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
