Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2014-01-18 Thread Nigel Dyer
I agree that there is something very interesting going on with 
microtubules.  I beleive that water has a role to play in this and have 
an article exploring this possibility for FtsZ, the procaryotic homolgue 
of tubulin, the building block of microtubules.  In microtubules this 
should provide an environment within which the microtubules could well 
be doing some very interesting things.


However, I dont think they are the substrate for conciousness. Firstly 
microtubules, even in neurons are far to dynamic to be able to store 
persistent information.   If you start thinking instead of microtubules 
being able to 'tune in' to information that is not physically stored in 
the microtubules then there is nothing in the microtubules that tunes 
the information to a specific individual, which is surely what is neede 
for a quantum soul.


For this part of the story I think you need to go elsewhere, 
particularly the nucleus, and particularly within the nucleus to the 
nucleolus.   Try looking up information about what DNA is found in the 
nucleolus (as well as the ribosomal genes) and the structure of this 
DNA, and also, returning to Hameroff, , the effect of anaesthetics on 
the nucleolus.


Nigel Dyer


On 18/01/2014 05:41, H Veeder wrote:

My Spider Senses are starting to tingle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kek3GqbsTk
Harry


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com 
mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:


Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in 'Microtubules' Inside Brain Neurons
Supports Controversial Theory of Consciousness

Jan. 16, 2014 — A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old
theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims
that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities
inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in
microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates this theory,
according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose.



On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton
hohlr...@gmail.com mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best
explanation of
 consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective
Reduction,
 or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
 Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
 specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
 model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff
wanted
 to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when
under.
  Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
 Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
 curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
 superposition.

 Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
 structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
 influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
 embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

 Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)






Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2014-01-17 Thread Terry Blanton
Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in 'Microtubules' Inside Brain Neurons
Supports Controversial Theory of Consciousness

Jan. 16, 2014 — A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old
theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims
that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities
inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in
microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates this theory,
according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose.



On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
 consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
 or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
 Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
 specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
 model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
 to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
  Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
 Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
 curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
 superposition.

 Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
 structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
 influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
 embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

 Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2014-01-17 Thread H Veeder
My Spider Senses are starting to tingle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kek3GqbsTk
Harry


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:

 Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in 'Microtubules' Inside Brain Neurons
 Supports Controversial Theory of Consciousness

 Jan. 16, 2014 — A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old
 theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims
 that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities
 inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in
 microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates this theory,
 according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose.



 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
  consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
  or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
  Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
  specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
  model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
  to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
   Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
  Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
  curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
  superposition.
 
  Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
  structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
  influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
  embedded in the geometry of spacetime.
 
  Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)




Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-07 Thread Terry Blanton
Interviews with Hameroff:

http://noetic.org/noetic/issue-thirteen-august/what-is-consciousness-hameroff/

http://www.skeptiko.com/stuart-hameroff-on-quantum-consciousness-and-singularity/

Excerpt from the first:

*Schlitz:* That brings up the criticism that the brain can’t be a quantum
processor because it’s too wet or too warm or whatever the criticism
happens to be. What I’m hearing you say is that, in your view, the brain
can be a signaling processor for a kind of quantum field. How does that
happen then? How do you bring microtubules into this idea of the brain as a
quantum processor?

*Hameroff: *First of all, what you said is exactly right. Most people do
criticize the view that Roger Penrose and I came out with in 1995—that
quantum computing and these microtubules inside brain neurons connect us to
the fundamental level of the universe. They say, “Everybody know*s* that
the brain is too warm, wet, and noisy to be a quantum computer.” They say
this because of the problem technologists, engineers, and physicists face
when trying to build quantum computers in a laboratory that will utilize
these delicate quantum states. I should say a little bit about what that
means: quantum superposition, where something can be in two states or
places at the same time. When they try to do this with ions, individual
atoms, or small particles, they run into the problem that any thermal
vibration, any heat, will disrupt and destroy the quantum superposition and
cause decoherence. And so to build a quantum computer in the laboratory and
avoid the heat and the vibrations caused by the heat, they build them at
absolute zero temperature.

But biology has had billions of years to evolve mechanisms to avoid
decoherence, and, more importantly, it’s probable that biology has
developed mechanisms to use the heat to drive coherence like a laser. A
laser is a quantum device; it uses heat not to destroy quantum coherence
but to pump it. And so we—and a lot of people—think that biology uses heat
and ambient energy to *drive* quantum coherence, not destroy it.

Recent evidence in the last five or six years has come down pretty strongly
on our side. For example, it’s been discovered that photosynthesis—the
operation in all plants that give rise to our food, to everything we
eat—utilizes quantum coherence. The photons from the sun are collected in
one part of the cell and conveyed to another part of the cell to be made
into chemical energy. This conductance of energy from point A to point B
utilizes quantum coherence in ambient temperatures. If this happens in
something as fundamental as photosynthesis, then it’s likely to be found
throughout biology. And more importantly to our case, a fellow in Japan
named Anirban Bandyopadhyay—it’s a hard name to say, but I think he’ll be
quite famous within a few years—recently found that when vibrated at the
right frequency, microtubules become quantum devices. And when that work
comes out—Bandyopadhyay is presently writing it— it’s going to blow this
field wide open.


Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-07 Thread Jed Rothwell
An interview with Hameroff:


Recent evidence in the last five or six years has come down pretty strongly
 on our side. For example, it’s been discovered that photosynthesis—the
 operation in all plants that give rise to our food, to everything we
 eat—utilizes quantum coherence. . . .

If this happens in something as fundamental as photosynthesis, then it’s
 likely to be found throughout biology.


Whoa. Excellent point. I had not thought of that. Once a biological
mechanism evolves it tends to spread far and wide, in surprising ways.

I have been kind of dismissing this hypothesis because of too hot, too
wet problem the author cites.

- Jed


Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-07 Thread OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson
Regarding the state of our souls:

All I noze is that somehow we find ourselves living... and then we die.

While transitioning between these two quantum states of existence I
finally began to realize the fact that the universe, to me, is one big
gigantic question mark, one that I will never be able to solve.

Strangely, when I began to accept the horrible predicament I found
myself in I began to feel less anxious.

Who sez god doesn't have wicked sense of humor.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks



RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Statewide Peter B

If it mans wisdom , your right  (bleet,bleet ) 
If its Gods wisdom, your probably the goat

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 23:56:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
From: gsantost...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any guidance on 
any topics goes beyond me. 
Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that lived 
thousands of year ago?

Giovanni


On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more 
different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from 
different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction.Chimeras are formed from at 
least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). 
Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is 
a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some 
reports of human chimerism.

In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of 
conception. When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, 
does two souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have 
two souls?

What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions 
associated with the formation of a chimera?
=
Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin formation.

When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later 
time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals.When is 
the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could not have been 
in place at the time of conception.


I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation process. 
Am I correct on this point? 


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:









Axil, I always like your responses because you 
always get me thinking deeper.  Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in 
your logic.
 
First, you need to realize that the body - cells, 
DNA, etc. that form the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions 
(length, width, height, and time).  The soul on the other hand, comes from 
God and imparted by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical.  A Soul is 
a hyper-dimensional entity.  It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our 
physical existence.  That is why it survives our physical death.  
Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, 
being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a 
faulty premise.  The soul is not bound by the size nor the 
non-functionality of a single egg.
 
Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to 
the cells and DNA.  IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are 
killing a living entity.  That is in fact is a faulty 
understanding.  The soul is not bound to any cell or DNA.  It 
exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' our 
physical cells, DNA and body.  The cells does not contaiin part of a soul 
that you kill when you trim your fingernail.  The source of your 
(mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which 
presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like 
rocks 
and fingernails.
 
Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that 
life starts in the womb.  That means, conception is the time He imparts the 
living soul.  The Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became 
a Living soul.  Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of 
dirt.  God imparted the life.  Before conception, the female egg is 
not alive, hence, when a woman experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not 
murder.  Immediately at conception, God breathe into that union of egg and 
sperm a life.  From that point on, that cells contains a living soul.  
That life is alive until such time as God decides to separate that living soul 
from that body, hence physical death occurs.
 
Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa 
has nothing to do with life or the soul.  Man can do this all day long but 
until God breathes into that creation, it is not a lviing soul.  As 
mentioned above, the soul is not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry 
along with it when you transfer DNA to another animal.  The soul is 
software.  A computer is dead without software.  You do not transfer 
software when you transfer a single resistor of a PC into another 
circuit.
 
Last, my understanding is not of my own 
origin.  I have no intellect to extend my theology, since it is not my 
theology to begin with.  If you want to understand man and his soul, 
you have to study the software manual that comes with it.  You need to 
study the Bible.
 
 
 
 
Jojo
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Axil Axil 
  
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Jojo Jaro
Tell me, my friend, which goat herder wrote the Bible?  It appears you have 
more information than I about the authorship of the Bible.  Tell me, please, 
what is the name of the goat herder that wrote the entirety of the Bible?  

Have you even read the Bible?  

You know, It says in the Bible Giovanni is an idiot.  You say No, it does 
not.  I say How do you know, when you haven't read it?

LOL 





Jojo



PS.  Actually, The Bible calls people like Giovanni much more worse labels than 
an idiot.  Find out... read it for yourself and you'll see what I mean.








  - Original Message - 
  From: Giovanni Santostasi 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?


  How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any guidance 
on any topics goes beyond me. 
  Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that lived 
thousands of year ago?
  Giovanni



  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more 
different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from 
different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction.

Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or 
early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character 
and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen 
in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism.

In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time 
of conception. 

When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two 
souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls?

What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions 
associated with the formation of a chimera?

=
Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin 
formation.
When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later 
time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals.

When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could 
not have been in place at the time of conception.

I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation 
process. Am I correct on this point? 



 

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

  Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking 
deeper.  Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic.

  First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the 
human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, 
and time).  The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and 
hence is Spiritual - metaphysical.  A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity.  
It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence.  That is why it 
survives our physical death.  Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, 
being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a 
faulty premise.  The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of 
a single egg.

  Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA.  
IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living 
entity.  That is in fact is a faulty understanding.  The soul is not bound to 
any cell or DNA.  It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 
'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body.  The cells does not contaiin 
part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail.  The source of 
your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which 
presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like 
rocks and fingernails.

  Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the 
womb.  That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul.  The 
Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul.  
Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt.  God imparted the 
life.  Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman 
experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder.  Immediately at conception, 
God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life.  From that point on, that 
cells contains a living soul.  That life is alive until such time as God 
decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death 
occurs.

  Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with 
life or the soul.  Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into 
that creation, it is not a lviing soul.  As mentioned above, the soul is not 
bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you transfer 
DNA to another animal.  The soul

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Peter Gluck
Dear Jojo,

If you know so well the Bible, please tell me which verse from the
Apocalypse can be interpreted as prediction of the TV and the Internet?

Please answer, do not explain it away. Thanks.

Peter

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Tell me, my friend, which goat herder wrote the Bible?  It appears you
 have more information than I about the authorship of the Bible.  Tell me,
 please, what is the name of the goat herder that wrote the entirety of the
 Bible?

 Have you even read the Bible?

 You know, It says in the Bible Giovanni is an idiot.  You say No, it
 does not.  I say How do you know, when you haven't read it?

 LOL 





 Jojo



 PS.  Actually, The Bible calls people like Giovanni much more worse
 labels than an idiot.  Find out... read it for yourself and you'll see
 what I mean.









 - Original Message -
 *From:* Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 12:56 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any
 guidance on any topics goes beyond me.
 Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that
 lived thousands of year ago?
 Giovanni


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or
 more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated
 from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction.

 Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs
 or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own
 character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are
 typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism.

 In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time
 of conception.

 When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two
 souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two
 souls?
 What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions
 associated with the formation of a chimera?

 =
 Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin
 formation.

 When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a
 later time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals.
 When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could
 not have been in place at the time of conception.

 I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation
 process. Am I correct on this point?





 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking
 deeper.  Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic.

 First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form
 the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width,
 height, and time).  The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted
 by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical.  A Soul is a
 hyper-dimensional entity.  It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our
 physical existence.  That is why it survives our physical death.  Your
 presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and
 non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty
 premise.  The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a
 single egg.

 Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA.
 IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living
 entity.  That is in fact is a faulty understanding.  The soul is not bound
 to any cell or DNA.  It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not
 exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body.  The cells does not
 contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail.  The
 source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion
 of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including
 inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails.

 Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the
 womb.  That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul.  The
 Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul.
 Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt.  God imparted the
 life.  Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman
 experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder.  Immediately at
 conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life.  From that
 point on, that cells contains a living soul.  That life is alive until such
 time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence
 physical death occurs.

 Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with
 life or the soul.  Man can

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Jojo Jaro
Axil, much confusion exists because we do not have firm definitions of the 
terms we use.  Much like the confusion that accompanies disscusions about 
Darwinian Evolution.  We can't agree whether Darwinian Evolution is right or 
wrong, when we don't even have a good definition of what a species is.  I 
believe this vagueness contributes to your misunderstanding below.

Well, Let me try to define how the Bible defines certain things.  You asked for 
verses, so I will oblige and try to answer with verses as much as possible

Genesis 1 defines what a species is.

  20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving 
creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open 
firmament of heaven. 
  21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, 
which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged 
fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 
  22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the 
waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 
  23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 
  24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his 
kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it 
was so. 
  25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after 
their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and 
God saw that it was good. 



Genesis 2 further elaborates on how God created these creatures.

  19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, 
and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call 
them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name 
thereof. 


Hence, it is clear that all original creatures were created from the ground 
(dirt).

Furthermore, it is abundantly clear with the terms his kind, that 
reproduction can only occur when 2 individuals of the same kind (species) 
come together.  They can not reporoduce outside of their kind.This is the 
definition of a speicies.  Reproduction is a sufficient but not a necessary 
condition for defining a species.  Only creature that reproduce after their 
kind is the natural order of things.  Any genetic hybridization is outside of 
their kind and hence does not originate from God.


Genesis 2 explains the origins of man and the living soul.

  7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed 
into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 


Man was formed from Dust of the ground (dirt), as well as all original 
creatures.  Then God imparted to him a living soul.  Hence, we need to 
understand that the existence of any cell is NOT the existence of a soul.  The 
soul can only come from God.  Creatures created in the lab thru genetic 
manipulation has not been imparted the breath of life, hence not a living 
soul.

Regarding twins.  Both individuals are conceived in the womb, and hence is the 
natural order of things.  Both individuals would have been imparted the 
breathe of life by God during conception.  Each would have its own soul 
distinct from the other.  

You see, it matters not whether we were created directly from dust (like Adam), 
or from a rib bone of Adam (like Eve) or from egg and sperm (like all the rest 
of us).  The important thing is that in all these acts of creation, God is the 
one doing the creation.  Hence, he imparts his breathe of life to Adam, Eve and 
to the rest of us who are conceived under the natural order of things God 
ordained.

Cloning, hybridization, genetic manipulation, artificial chimeras and other 
such genetic techniques involves actions outside the involvement of God, hence, 
he did not breathe into those creatures the breathe of life; hence NOT a living 
soul.

I beleive the Bible is clear on this teaching.


Jojo






- Original Message - 
  From: Axil Axil 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?


  A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more 
different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from 
different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction.

  Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or 
early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character 
and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen 
in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism.

  In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of 
conception. 

  When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two 
souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls?

  What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions 
associated with the formation of a chimera

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Jojo Jaro
OK, I will oblige though I'm super busy.  

I presume that you are asking where in the Bible the existence of TV and the 
Internet was predicted, more specifically how it is predicted in the End-times 
apocalyptic scenario.  I am pretty sure you are testing me to see if I am as 
knowledgeable as I claim to be, so let me put your mind at ease.  I am not wise 
or knowledgeable by myself.  In fact, I am a fool.  But the Wisdom is found in 
the Bible.  So, let me show you where.

In the Book of Revelation, it explains the rise of a Global World leader - the 
Anti-Christ, who will set up a Global World Government with him as the 
Monarch/King/Leader/Emperor/etc.  There are too many verses for this so I do 
not have the time to explicitly list each one.  Besides, Bill would surely ban 
me if I jammed up his list server with all the verses.  You're gonna have to 
read the book yourself.

But, I mention the above factiod to answer your question regarding the 
existence of TV and the Internet in the End Times scenario.

In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed by 
this Anti-Christ
 
  3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a 
thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 
  4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before 
the God of the earth. 
  5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and 
devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner 
be killed. 
  6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their 
prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the 
earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 
  7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that 
ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall 
overcome them, and kill them. 
  8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which 
spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
  9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see 
their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead 
bodies to be put in graves. 
  10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make 
merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets 
tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 
  11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered 
into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which 
saw them. 



So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days  that can 
be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations.  This is a clear 
referrence to many different peoples speaking many different languages, quite 
obviously from many different countries.  So, let me ask you this?  How can all 
peoples of the Earth see this one event.  Did 6 Billion people fly to this 
particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead bodies laying on the street.  

Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like Live TV 
broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube.  This is only possible with TV and the 
Internet.

This my friend, is the answer to your question.  You asked for a specific 
prediction, the Bible provides one.  And the Bible contains many much more 
technological predictions like this.  Did you know that the Bible also predicts 
the existence of Cold Fusion?  Read it and find out for yourself.   How a goat 
herder could have written this by himself stretches any credible imagination 
to the absurd breaking point.  LOL.



Jojo



PS.  Did I pass your silly little test?





  - Original Message - 
  From: Peter Gluck 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 5:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?


  Dear Jojo,


  If you know so well the Bible, please tell me which verse from the Apocalypse 
can be interpreted as prediction of the TV and the Internet?


  Please answer, do not explain it away. Thanks.


  Peter


  On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

Tell me, my friend, which goat herder wrote the Bible?  It appears you 
have more information than I about the authorship of the Bible.  Tell me, 
please, what is the name of the goat herder that wrote the entirety of the 
Bible?  

Have you even read the Bible?  

You know, It says in the Bible Giovanni is an idiot.  You say No, it 
does not.  I say How do you know, when you haven't read it?

LOL 





Jojo



PS.  Actually, The Bible calls people like Giovanni much more worse labels 
than an idiot.  Find out... read it for yourself and you'll see what I mean.








  - Original Message - 
  From: Giovanni Santostasi 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Peter Gluck
If you are super-busy, why are you wasting your time?

Yes, you have passed the test I congratulate you but it is a blasphemy to
say that the test is silly. I have it from my friend and counselor for
theological issues, a very famous Romanian Baptist preacher. Calling this
test silly is equivalent to putting in doubt the inerrancy of the Bible.

I am not sharing this idea but I respect other people's opinion. I think
you could well do the same, the dialogue between science and religion is-
parallel monologs.

Cold Fusion had its religious martyrs- the Cincinnati Group
Stan and Don who had worked with dangerous radioactive stuff and both have
died by leukemia. They were Charismatic Christians.
See:
http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/IE13-14CincinattiGroup.pdf and:

http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/astiworkshop.pdf

They have put their work and lives where their faith was.

Because we both are busy, let's stop here, OK?

Peter

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 OK, I will oblige though I'm super busy.

 I presume that you are asking where in the Bible the existence of TV and
 the Internet was predicted, more specifically how it is predicted in the
 End-times apocalyptic scenario.  I am pretty sure you are testing me to see
 if I am as knowledgeable as I claim to be, so let me put your mind at
 ease.  I am not wise or knowledgeable by myself.  In fact, I am a fool.
 But the Wisdom is found in the Bible.  So, let me show you where.

 In the Book of Revelation, it explains the rise of a Global World leader -
 the Anti-Christ, who will set up a Global World Government with him as the
 Monarch/King/Leader/Emperor/etc.  There are too many verses for this so I
 do not have the time to explicitly list each one.  Besides, Bill
 would surely ban me if I jammed up his list server with all the verses.
 You're gonna have to read the book yourself.

 But, I mention the above factiod to answer your question regarding the
 existence of TV and the Internet in the End Times scenario.

 In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed
 by this Anti-Christ
**3** And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall
 prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
 **4** These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing
 before the God of the earth. **5** And if any man will hurt them, fire
 proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man
 will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. **6** These have power
 to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have
 power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all
 plagues, as often as they will. **7** And when they shall have finished
 their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall
 make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. **8** And
 their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which
 spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 **9** And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall
 see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their
 dead bodies to be put in graves. **10** And they that dwell upon the
 earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to
 another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
 **11** And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God
 entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon
 them which saw them.


 So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days  that
 can be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations.  This is a
 clear referrence to many different peoples speaking many different
 languages, quite obviously from many different countries.  So, let me ask
 you this?  How can all peoples of the Earth see this one event.  Did 6
 Billion people fly to this particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead
 bodies laying on the street.

 Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like
 Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube.  This is only possible with TV
 and the Internet.

 This my friend, is the answer to your question.  You asked for a specific
 prediction, the Bible provides one.  And the Bible contains many much more
 technological predictions like this.  Did you know that the Bible also
 predicts the existence of Cold Fusion?  Read it and find out
 for yourself.   How a goat herder could have written this by himself
 stretches any credible imagination to the absurd breaking point.  LOL.



 Jojo



  PS.  Did I pass your silly little test?






 - Original Message -
 *From:* Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 5:19 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 Dear Jojo,

 If you know so well

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Harry Veeder
What is your mission as a christain?
What have you done for the world lately other than complain, condemn
and wait around for the messiah?

harry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with
 imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me.
 I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
 concerns are without merit.

 Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.  Jesus
 Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help
 from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own
 power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of
 good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
 plagues our society.+


 Jojo


 - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 3:18 AM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?


 I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
 return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
 like radical orthodoxy.
 Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
 rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.

 Harry


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 FYI

 Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.


 http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/

 In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a
 five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
 Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
 social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
 once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
 movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley
 profiles John Milbank.
 The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
 have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
 theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
 Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
 says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
 something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
 - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
 Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
 have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
 authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
 spiritually flattened world.


 Harry

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
 and
 zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.
 The
 ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

 Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
 chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain
 cells
 and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never
 understand
 how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs
 to
 understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
 understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
 techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

 Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system
 from
 the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows
 require
 understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
 level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why
 would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the
 individual
 ones and zeros of the neurons?

 You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
 soul.
 This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging
 the
 creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the
 human
 blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the
 fallacies of
 Darwinian Evolution.



 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 From: Patrick Ellul
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
 installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
 understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
 ones
 and zeros on a memory device.

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:


 Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the
 soul
 is doom to failure from the onset.

 Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed
 the
 Pentuim chip.  Without understanding

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Harry Veeder
Which version of the bible is this?:
9.  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see
their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead
bodies to be put in graves.

The city in which this happens may simply be cosmopolitan so many of
the local observers have different ethnic, national and linguistic
backgrounds.



Harry

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 6:21 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **

 In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed
 by this Anti-Christ
**3** And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall
 prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
 **4** These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing
 before the God of the earth. **5** And if any man will hurt them, fire
 proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man
 will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. **6** These have power
 to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have
 power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all
 plagues, as often as they will. **7** And when they shall have finished
 their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall
 make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. **8** And
 their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which
 spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 **9** And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall
 see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their
 dead bodies to be put in graves. **10** And they that dwell upon the
 earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to
 another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
 **11** And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God
 entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon
 them which saw them.


 So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days  that
 can be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations.  This is a
 clear referrence to many different peoples speaking many different
 languages, quite obviously from many different countries.  So, let me ask
 you this?  How can all peoples of the Earth see this one event.  Did 6
 Billion people fly to this particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead
 bodies laying on the street.

 Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like
 Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube.  This is only possible with TV
 and the Internet.

 This my friend, is the answer to your question.  You asked for a specific
 prediction, the Bible provides one.  And the Bible contains many much more
 technological predictions like this.  Did you know that the Bible also
 predicts the existence of Cold Fusion?  Read it and find out
 for yourself.   How a goat herder could have written this by himself
 stretches any credible imagination to the absurd breaking point.  LOL.


  PS.  Did I pass your silly little test?



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Harry Veeder
On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with
 imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me.
 I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
 concerns are without merit.

 Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.

Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians,
if they had their
way, would use the  government to impose their beliefs on everyone,
before the messiah
has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule.

Jesus
 Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help
 from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own
 power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of
 good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
 plagues our society.+



Harry



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the
bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion
than religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name
calling. Many xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger
motivation not to follow their distorted world view.
Giovanni




On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
  Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned
 with
  imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including
 me.
  I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
  concerns are without merit.
 
  Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.

 Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians,
 if they had their
 way, would use the  government to impose their beliefs on everyone,
 before the messiah
 has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule.

 Jesus
  Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any
 help
  from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his
 own
  power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of
  good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
  plagues our society.+
 


 Harry




Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits
that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a
historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But
is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible
actually contains lies?

Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred
Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the
Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will
tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the
term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were
written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous
apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone
else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who
lies about his identity is a forgery. from
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html


On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
gsantost...@gmail.comwrote:

 One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the
 bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion
 than religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name
 calling. Many xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger
 motivation not to follow their distorted world view.
 Giovanni





 On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
  Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned
 with
  imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including
 me.
  I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
  concerns are without merit.
 
  Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.

 Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians,
 if they had their
 way, would use the  government to impose their beliefs on everyone,
 before the messiah
 has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule.

 Jesus
  Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any
 help
  from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of
 his own
  power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of
  good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
  plagues our society.+
 


 Harry





Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
What we know that the authors of the bible were liars, they even lied about
their own identity.
http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God-Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/0062012614

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
gsantost...@gmail.comwrote:

 Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone
 admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here,
 a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But
 is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible
 actually contains lies?

 Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all,
 sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of
 the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America,
 will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use
 the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament
 were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a
 famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were
 someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by
 someone who lies about his identity is a forgery. from
 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html


 On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the
 bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion
 than religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name
 calling. Many xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger
 motivation not to follow their distorted world view.
  Giovanni





 On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
  Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned
 with
  imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule,
 including me.
  I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
  concerns are without merit.
 
  Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.

 Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians,
 if they had their
 way, would use the  government to impose their beliefs on everyone,
 before the messiah
 has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule.

 Jesus
  Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without
 any help
  from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of
 his own
  power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time
 of
  good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
  plagues our society.+
 


 Harry






Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Jojo Jaro
Those who are attempting to install a monarchy before the return of Jesus 
Christ are not doing true Christian work.  They're not Christians as far as 
I'm concerned.



Jojo



- Original Message - 
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?



On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned 
with
imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including 
me.

I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
concerns are without merit.

Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.


Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians,
if they had their
way, would use the  government to impose their beliefs on everyone,
before the messiah
has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule.


Jesus
Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any 
help
from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his 
own

power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of
good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
plagues our society.+




Harry






Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Jojo Jaro
This is KJV Bible.  No other version is good.

As for what city, the passage gives us hints.  Obvously it can't be Sodom since 
it has been destroyed and Egypt is not a city.  The other possibility is 
Jerusalem cause that is where our Lord was crucified.  Some scholars believe 
it might be referring to the new emergent capital of the new world government - 
Babylon.  The City of Babylon has always been the center of rebellion against 
God since the olden days.  It has always been the center of occultic, pagan and 
evil practices.  Every occultic, pagan and new age religion can be traced back 
to Babylon.  This is where Nimrod started his first world empire and built a 
rebellious city Babel (as in Tower of Babel - aka Babylon).  Many Scholars 
believe that Babylon will once again rise to prominence and center of power 
before the end.  Many believe Babylon is the reason why our Illuminati Shadow 
government sent our troops there - to secure Babylon for their purposes.  If 
you ask me, I'll place my bet on Babylon as the city being referred to here.  

If it is Babylon, then you may have a point in claiming that maybe there will 
just be a lot of ethnic groups there; except that the passage clearly indicates 
nations not just tongues.   Clearly, it is referring to countries, not just 
ethnic groups.  And of course, the phrase they that dwell upon the Earth 
clearly indicates that this is a global event witnessed by all peoples from all 
nations.




Jojo








  - Original Message - 
  From: Harry Veeder 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 3:31 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?



  Which version of the bible is this?:
  9.  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see 
their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead 
bodies to be put in graves.

  The city in which this happens may simply be cosmopolitan so many of the 
local observers have different ethnic, national and linguistic backgrounds.



  Harry

  On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 6:21 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:


In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed 
by this Anti-Christ
 
  3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall 
prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 
  4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing 
before the God of the earth. 
  5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, 
and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this 
manner be killed. 
  6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of 
their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite 
the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 
  7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that 
ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall 
overcome them, and kill them. 
  8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, 
which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 
  9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall 
see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead 
bodies to be put in graves. 
  10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and 
make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets 
tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 
  11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God 
entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon 
them which saw them. 



So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days  that 
can be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations.  This is a clear 
referrence to many different peoples speaking many different languages, quite 
obviously from many different countries.  So, let me ask you this?  How can all 
peoples of the Earth see this one event.  Did 6 Billion people fly to this 
particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead bodies laying on the street.  

Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like 
Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube.  This is only possible with TV and 
the Internet.

This my friend, is the answer to your question.  You asked for a specific 
prediction, the Bible provides one.  And the Bible contains many much more 
technological predictions like this.  Did you know that the Bible also predicts 
the existence of Cold Fusion?  Read it and find out for yourself.   How a goat 
herder could have written this by himself stretches any credible imagination 
to the absurd breaking point.  LOL.

  
PS.  Did I pass your silly little test?

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-02 Thread Jojo Jaro
LOL...

So, you are more knowledgeable than I, yet you can't name the goat herder who 
wrote the Bible.

In your contention, you say that the Books of the Bible were written by 
forgers.  Yet, you don't know who these forgers are.  And yet, you know for 
sure they were goat herders.

OK, WHATEVER



It won't be long before we'll know who's lying, won't we?  If I am wrong and I 
followed a goat herder, at most, I've only wasted my life.  If you are wrong 
and indeed you followed the wrong religion (Atheism), then you've wasted your 
eternity.  Frankly, I'd rather waste my life than waste my eternity.  But, I AM 
NOT WRONG.  I know whom I have believed 




Jojo



PS:  You started the nastiness, so don't complain that you're recieving what 
you dished out.  I am capable of discussing these controversial subjects 
politely, but I won't suffer insults.  Especially from those who are ignorant 
of the subject.





  - Original Message - 
  From: Giovanni Santostasi 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 5:03 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?


  What we know that the authors of the bible were liars, they even lied about 
their own identity. 
http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God-Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/0062012614


  On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits 
that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a 
historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it 
possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually 
contains lies?

Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred 
Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, 
including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you 
that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here 
is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who 
lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or 
James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is 
a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery. 
from 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html





On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com 
wrote:

  One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the 
bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion than 
religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name calling. Many 
xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger motivation not to 
follow their distorted world view. 
  Giovanni






  On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned 
with
 imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, 
including me.
 I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your
 concerns are without merit.

 Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.


Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians,
if they had their
way, would use the  government to impose their beliefs on everyone,
before the messiah
has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule.


Jesus
 Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without 
any help
 from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of 
his own
 power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time 
of
 good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently
 plagues our society.+




Harry









Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Jojo Jaro
You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones and 
zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.  The 
ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical 
reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other 
psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human 
consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its 
creator.  Much like studying the software requires an understanding of 
Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a 
understanding of the man himself. 

Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the 
ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows require 
understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level?  
possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?  Why would one 
think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and 
zeros of the neurons?

You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul.  
This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the 
creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human 
blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of 
Darwinian Evolution.



Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: Patrick Ellul 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?


  If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows 
installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand 
the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on 
a memory device.


  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul 
is doom to failure from the onset.

Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the 
Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the 
operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? 
 At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty.  Software 
is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer.  Software 
controls the hardware.

On the same token, experts in 
Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to 
completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the soul, 
that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc.  The 
Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior 
of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The brain is simply a 
mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the mechanism that 
MS Windows controls.  The analogy is apt and accurate.

Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these 
philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc.  They are at best severely 
incomplete, at worst gravely misleading.

If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the 
software soul.  Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of 
human behavior.


Jojo








- Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?




  I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
  consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
  or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
  Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
  specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
  model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
  to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
  Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
  Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
  curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
  superposition.

  Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
  structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
  influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
  embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

  Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)










  -- 
  Patrick

  www.tRacePerfect.com
  The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
  The quickest puzzle ever! 



RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread MarkI-ZeroPoint
John Berry wrote:

Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that
quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual
gas/fluid/superfluid aether.

 

Do tell John.

Many Vorts love new hypotheses, especially when they have some data to go
along with them.

 

-Mark Iverson

 

From: John Berry [mailto:berry.joh...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:13 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 

Since there have been results of consciousness effecting quantum level
events multiple times, why should it be so absurd.

 

Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that
quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual
gas/fluid/superfluid aether.

 

And while most Vorts would probably be unable to get their minds around
this, it really does explain everything very neatly.

 

 

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
 gsantost...@gmail.com wrote:

 Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness.

 So, who wins that prize?

Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested
in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I
followed for years:

http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/

Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous
and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the
discussions.

I found it absolutely fascinating.

 



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread John Berry
For now I will pass.

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:16 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote:

 John Berry wrote:

 “Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that
 quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual
 gas/fluid/superfluid aether.”

 ** **

 Do tell John…

 Many Vorts love new hypotheses, especially when they have some data to go
 along with them.

 ** **

 -Mark Iverson

 ** **

 *From:* John Berry [mailto:berry.joh...@gmail.com]
 *Sent:* Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:13 PM
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com

 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 ** **

 Since there have been results of consciousness effecting quantum level
 events multiple times, why should it be so absurd.

 ** **

 Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that
 quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual
 gas/fluid/superfluid aether.

 ** **

 And while most Vorts would probably be unable to get their minds around
 this, it really does explain everything very neatly.

 ** **

 ** **

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 

 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
  gsantost...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness.
 
  So, who wins that prize?

 Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested
 in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I
 followed for years:

 http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/

 Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous
 and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the
 discussions.

 I found it absolutely fascinating.

 ** **



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Terry Blanton
I don't think the experience of Dr. Eben Alexander has been mentioned on Vortex:

http://www.skeptiko.com/eben-alexander-the-medical-mystery-of-near-death-experience/

His is a fascinating story.



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Harry Veeder
FYI

Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/

In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a
five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley
profiles John Milbank.
The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
- it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
spiritually flattened world.


Harry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones and
 zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.  The
 ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

 Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
 chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
 and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
 how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
 understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
 understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
 techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

 Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from
 the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows require
 understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
 level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?  Why
 would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual
 ones and zeros of the neurons?

 You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul.
 This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the
 creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human
 blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of
 Darwinian Evolution.



 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 From: Patrick Ellul
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
 installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
 understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones
 and zeros on a memory device.

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul
 is doom to failure from the onset.

 Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the
 Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the
 operation of a PC from your understanding of the
 hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be severely
 incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls the
 behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.

 On the same token, experts in
 Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to
 completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the
 soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons,
 etc.  The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand
 the behavior of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The brain
 is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the
 mechanism that MS Windows controls.  The analogy is apt and accurate.

 Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these
 philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc.  They are at best severely
 incomplete, at worst gravely misleading.

 If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the
 software soul.  Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of
 human behavior.


 Jojo








 - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?



 I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Harry Veeder
I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
like radical orthodoxy.
Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.

Harry


On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
 FYI

 Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.

 http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/

 In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a
 five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
 Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
 social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
 once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
 movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley
 profiles John Milbank.
 The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
 have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
 theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
 Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
 says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
 something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
 - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
 Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
 have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
 authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
 spiritually flattened world.


 Harry

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones and
 zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.  The
 ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

 Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
 chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
 and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
 how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
 understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
 understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
 techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

 Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from
 the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows require
 understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
 level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?  Why
 would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual
 ones and zeros of the neurons?

 You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul.
 This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the
 creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human
 blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of
 Darwinian Evolution.



 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 From: Patrick Ellul
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
 installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
 understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones
 and zeros on a memory device.

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul
 is doom to failure from the onset.

 Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the
 Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the
 operation of a PC from your understanding of the
 hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be severely
 incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls the
 behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.

 On the same token, experts in
 Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to
 completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the
 soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons,
 etc.  The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand
 the behavior of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The brain
 is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the
 mechanism that MS Windows controls.  The analogy is apt and accurate.

 Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these
 philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc.  They are at best severely
 incomplete, at worst gravely misleading.

 If you want to understand

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Axil Axil
 Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is
fertilized; aka the moment of conception.   In this way of thinking, with
DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a
complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to
contain the soul.   With current technology, any cell in the body can be
transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human.   So human
spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body.   If
this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your
finger nails?   If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to
simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human
insulin, have these animals become human with a soul.   If a geneticist
copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become
human? What parts of human DNA define the soul?   Please extend your
theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define
the soul.


On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
 and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the
 software.  The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

 Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
 chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
 and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
 how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
 understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
 understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
 techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

 Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from
 the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows require
 understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
 level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?  Why
 would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual
 ones and zeros of the neurons?

 You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
 soul.  This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid
 acknowledging the creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without
 studying the human blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much
 like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution.



 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
 installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
 understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
 ones and zeros on a memory device.

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the
 soul is doom to failure from the onset.

 Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the
 Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the
 operation of a PC from your understanding of the
 hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be
 severely incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that
 controls the behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.

 On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/**
 Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/**etc, can never hope to completely
 understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the soul, that
 controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc.  The
 Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the
 behavior of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The brain is
 simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the
 mechanism that MS Windows controls.  The analogy is apt and accurate.

 Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these
 philosophers/psychologists/**psychiatrists/etc.  They are at best
 severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading.

 If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the
 software soul.  Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding
 of human behavior.


 Jojo








 - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?



 I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
 consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
 or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
 Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
 specialized

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
Mytho-poetic?
There is enough beauty and poetry in science as it is.
We don't need made up stories.
Giovanni



On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
 return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
 like radical orthodoxy.
 Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
 rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.

 Harry


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
  FYI
 
  Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.
 
 
 http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/
 
  In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a
  five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
  Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
  social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
  once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
  movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley
  profiles John Milbank.
  The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
  have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
  theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
  Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
  says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
  something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
  - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
  Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
  have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
  authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
  spiritually flattened world.
 
 
  Harry
 
  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
  You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
 and
  zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.
  The
  ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.
 
  Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
  chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain
 cells
  and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never
 understand
  how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs
 to
  understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
  understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
  techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.
 
  Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system
 from
  the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows
 require
  understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
  level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?
  Why
  would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the
 individual
  ones and zeros of the neurons?
 
  You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
 soul.
  This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid
 acknowledging the
  creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the
 human
  blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the
 fallacies of
  Darwinian Evolution.
 
 
 
  Jojo
 
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Patrick Ellul
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
 
  If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
  installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
  understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
 ones
  and zeros on a memory device.
 
  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the
 soul
  is doom to failure from the onset.
 
  Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed
 the
  Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern
 the
  operation of a PC from your understanding of the
  hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be
 severely
  incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls
 the
  behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.
 
  On the same token, experts in
  Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never
 hope to
  completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity -
 the
  soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain
 cells/neurons,
  etc.  The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to
 understand
  the behavior of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The
 brain
  is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like

RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Statewide Homes Peter B

Can theology and our science ever fully agree 
Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind
Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit 
Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule 
knowledge  says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his wings  , 
is He part chook
knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He part 
maniac 


This I trust , after examineing his words and actions 
Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father  not long 
after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified him 
Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me 
Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but in the 
end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing that has 
given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding 
Pete 

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
From: janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com





Some believe that the soul comes
into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception.

 

In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the
human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of
conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul.

 

With current technology, any
cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a
human.

 

So human spiritual characteristic
is inherent in any DNA present in the human body.

 

If this is true, do you commit
murder when you cut your hair or trim your finger nails?

 

If a mouse is given flawed disease
carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to
produce human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul.

 

If a geneticist copies human
DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become human? What parts
of human DNA define the soul?

 

Please extend your theology into
the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define the soul.

 

 





On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:








You've made my point better than I.  For when 
you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact 
studying the software.  The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're 
software.
 
Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred 
lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular 
structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we 
will never understand how Human consciousness works.  To understand the 
human soul, one needs to understand its creator.  Much like studying the 
software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design 
methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man 
himself. 
 
Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire 
windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code?  
Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher 
level? not at the machine code level?  possibly by interviewing the 
designer and studying his work?  Why would one think he can understand the 
human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the 
neurons?
 
You see, this issue goes deeper than just 
discussions about the human soul.  This issue involves our humanistic 
prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator.  We try our best to 
understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint.  Such efforts 
are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian 
Evolution.
 
 
 
Jojo
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Patrick 
  Ellul 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
  
If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS 
  Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and 
  understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones 
  and zeros on a memory device.


  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

  Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt 
to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset.

Let says 
you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim 
chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the 
operation of a PC from your understanding of the 
hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be 
severely incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that 
controls the behavior of the computer.  Software controls the 
hardware.

On the same token, experts in 
Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can 
never hope to completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that 
intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your 
brain cells/neurons, etc.  The Software soul is what needs

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
This is not a complete criticism but it basically summarizes the main
point, there is no need to introduce quantum mechanics to explain
consciousness. We have not yet a full explanation but everything we know
about neuroscience points to an explanation that would need just classical
physics (networks and dynamical systems).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=Gq9ldQys3_ENR=1

Giovanni





On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Statewide Homes Peter B
ddc...@hotmail.comwrote:

  Can theology and our science ever fully agree

 Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind

 Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit

 Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule

 knowledge  says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his wings
  , is He part chook

 knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He
 part maniac



 This I trust , after examineing his words and actions

 Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father  not long
 after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified him

 Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me

 Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but
 in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing
 that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding

 Pete

 --
 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400

 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
 From: janap...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


  Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is
 fertilized; aka the moment of conception.   In this way of thinking, with
 DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a
 complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to
 contain the soul.   With current technology, any cell in the body can be
 transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human.   So human
 spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body.
   If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim
 your finger nails?   If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human
 DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce
 human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul.   If a
 geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the
 animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul?   Please
 extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest
 to define the soul.


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
 and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the
 software.  The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

 Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
 chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
 and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
 how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
 understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
 understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
 techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

 Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from
 the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows require
 understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
 level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?  Why
 would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual
 ones and zeros of the neurons?

 You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
 soul.  This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid
 acknowledging the creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without
 studying the human blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much
 like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution.



 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
 installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
 understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
 ones and zeros on a memory device.

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the
 soul is doom to failure from the onset.

 Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the
 Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the
 operation of a PC from your understanding of the
 hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
This is a and more complete criticism  of Penrose ideas on consciousness.
http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~llandau/Homepage/Math/penrose.html

Giovanni

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
gsantost...@gmail.comwrote:

 This is not a complete criticism but it basically summarizes the main
 point, there is no need to introduce quantum mechanics to explain
 consciousness. We have not yet a full explanation but everything we know
 about neuroscience points to an explanation that would need just classical
 physics (networks and dynamical systems).

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=Gq9ldQys3_ENR=1

 Giovanni





 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Statewide Homes Peter B 
 ddc...@hotmail.com wrote:

  Can theology and our science ever fully agree

 Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind

 Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit

 Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule

 knowledge  says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his
 wings  , is He part chook

 knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He
 part maniac



 This I trust , after examineing his words and actions

 Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father  not
 long after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified
 him

 Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me

 Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but
 in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing
 that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding

 Pete

 --
 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400

 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
 From: janap...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


  Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is
 fertilized; aka the moment of conception.   In this way of thinking,
 with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to
 form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet
 formed to contain the soul.   With current technology, any cell in the
 body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human.
   So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in
 the human body.   If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut
 your hair or trim your finger nails?   If a mouse is given flawed
 disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given
 human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with
 a soul.   If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal
 cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul?
   Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in
 your quest to define the soul.


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
 and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the
 software.  The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

 Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
 chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
 and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
 how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
 understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
 understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
 techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

 Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating
 system from the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding
 windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the
 machine code level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his
 work?  Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the
 individual ones and zeros of the neurons?

 You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
 soul.  This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid
 acknowledging the creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without
 studying the human blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much
 like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution.



 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
 installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
 understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
 ones and zeros on a memory device.

 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the
 soul is doom to failure from the onset

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
And :
http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2007/10/26/quantum-consciousness-and-the/

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
gsantost...@gmail.comwrote:

 This is a and more complete criticism  of Penrose ideas on consciousness.
 http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~llandau/Homepage/Math/penrose.html

 Giovanni


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 This is not a complete criticism but it basically summarizes the main
 point, there is no need to introduce quantum mechanics to explain
 consciousness. We have not yet a full explanation but everything we know
 about neuroscience points to an explanation that would need just classical
 physics (networks and dynamical systems).

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=Gq9ldQys3_ENR=1

 Giovanni





 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Statewide Homes Peter B 
 ddc...@hotmail.com wrote:

  Can theology and our science ever fully agree

 Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind

 Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit

 Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule

 knowledge  says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his
 wings  , is He part chook

 knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He
 part maniac



 This I trust , after examineing his words and actions

 Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father  not
 long after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified
 him

 Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me

 Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but
 in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing
 that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding

 Pete

 --
 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400

 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
 From: janap...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com


  Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is
 fertilized; aka the moment of conception.   In this way of thinking,
 with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to
 form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet
 formed to contain the soul.   With current technology, any cell in the
 body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human.
   So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in
 the human body.   If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut
 your hair or trim your finger nails?   If a mouse is given flawed
 disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given
 human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with
 a soul.   If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal
 cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul?
   Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation
 in your quest to define the soul.


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
 and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the
 software.  The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

 Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
 chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells
 and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand
 how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to
 understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
 understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
 techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

 Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating
 system from the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding
 windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the
 machine code level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his
 work?  Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the
 individual ones and zeros of the neurons?

 You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
 soul.  This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid
 acknowledging the creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without
 studying the human blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much
 like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution.



 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

 If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
 installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
 understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
 ones and zeros on a memory device.

 On Thu, Nov 1

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Harry Veeder
Myth, poetry and dreams tell us the meaning of life. The direction of
science and society is infleunced by them.
Harry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
gsantost...@gmail.com wrote:
 Mytho-poetic?
 There is enough beauty and poetry in science as it is.
 We don't need made up stories.
 Giovanni



 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
 return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
 like radical orthodoxy.
 Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
 rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.

 Harry


 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
  FYI
 
  Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.
 
 
  http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/
 
  In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a
  five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
  Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
  social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
  once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
  movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley
  profiles John Milbank.
  The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
  have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
  theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
  Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
  says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
  something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
  - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
  Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
  have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
  authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
  spiritually flattened world.
 
 
  Harry
 
  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
  You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones
  and
  zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.
  The
  ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.
 
  Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
  chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain
  cells
  and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never
  understand
  how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs
  to
  understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
  understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
  techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.
 
  Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system
  from
  the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows
  require
  understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
  level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work?
  Why
  would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the
  individual
  ones and zeros of the neurons?
 
  You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human
  soul.
  This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid
  acknowledging the
  creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the
  human
  blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the
  fallacies of
  Darwinian Evolution.
 
 
 
  Jojo
 
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Patrick Ellul
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
 
  If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
  installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
  understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
  ones
  and zeros on a memory device.
 
  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the
  soul
  is doom to failure from the onset.
 
  Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed
  the
  Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern
  the
  operation of a PC from your understanding of the
  hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be
  severely
  incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls
  the
  behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.
 
  On the same token, experts in
  Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never
  hope to
  completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity -
  the
  soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain
  cells

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Jojo Jaro
Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking deeper.  
Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic.

First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the human 
physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and 
time).  The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and 
hence is Spiritual - metaphysical.  A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity.  
It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence.  That is why it 
survives our physical death.  Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, 
being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a 
faulty premise.  The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of 
a single egg.

Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA.  IOW, you 
say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living entity.  That 
is in fact is a faulty understanding.  The soul is not bound to any cell or 
DNA.  It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' 
our physical cells, DNA and body.  The cells does not contaiin part of a soul 
that you kill when you trim your fingernail.  The source of your 
(mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which 
presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like 
rocks and fingernails.

Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the womb.  
That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul.  The Bible 
teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul.  Before 
God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt.  God imparted the life.  
Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman experiences 
a menstrual cycle, that is not murder.  Immediately at conception, God breathe 
into that union of egg and sperm a life.  From that point on, that cells 
contains a living soul.  That life is alive until such time as God decides to 
separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death occurs.

Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with life 
or the soul.  Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into that 
creation, it is not a lviing soul.  As mentioned above, the soul is not bound 
to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you transfer DNA to 
another animal.  The soul is software.  A computer is dead without software.  
You do not transfer software when you transfer a single resistor of a PC into 
another circuit.

Last, my understanding is not of my own origin.  I have no intellect to extend 
my theology, since it is not my theology to begin with.  If you want to 
understand man and his soul, you have to study the software manual that comes 
with it.  You need to study the Bible.




Jojo


  - Original Message - 
  From: Axil Axil 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?


  Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; 
aka the moment of conception.

  In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA 
has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no 
organ is yet formed to contain the soul.

  With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a 
omnipotent cell that can produce a human.

  So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human 
body.

  If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your 
finger nails?

  If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to simulate human 
disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human insulin, have these 
animals become human with a soul.

  If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the 
animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul?

  Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your 
quest to define the soul.





  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones and 
zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software.  The 
ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron 
chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and 
other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how 
Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs to 
understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an 
understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, 
in fact, a understanding of the man himself. 

Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from 
the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Jojo Jaro
Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with 
imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. 
I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your 
concerns are without merit.


Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves.  Jesus 
Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help 
from any of us.  Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own 
power, not by the power of any Christian movement.  It will be a time of 
good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently 
plagues our society.+



Jojo


- Original Message - 
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 3:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?



I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must
return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements
like radical orthodoxy.
Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation
rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion.

Harry


On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

FYI

Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six.

http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/

In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a
five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond
Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to
social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself,
once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a
movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley
profiles John Milbank.
The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will
have some religion - the only question is which religion.  British
theologian John Milbank agrees.  A purely secular society, in
Milbank's view, is simply not viable.  The only choice in our time, he
says, is between religion and nihilism.  But religion for him means
something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning
- it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical
Orthodoxy.  Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues
have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with
authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living  in a
spiritually flattened world.


Harry

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:
You've made my point better than I.  For when you are studying the ones 
and
zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. 
The

ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software.

Much like the soul.  We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron
chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain 
cells
and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never 
understand
how Human consciousness works.  To understand the human soul, one needs 
to

understand its creator.  Much like studying the software requires an
understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and
techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself.

Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system 
from
the ones and zeros of machine code?  Doesn't understanding windows 
require

understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code
level?  possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? 
Why
would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the 
individual

ones and zeros of the neurons?

You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human 
soul.
This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging 
the
creator.  We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the 
human
blueprint.  Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the 
fallacies of

Darwinian Evolution.



Jojo



- Original Message -
From: Patrick Ellul
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as 
ones

and zeros on a memory device.

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:


Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the 
soul

is doom to failure from the onset.

Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed 
the
Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern 
the

operation of a PC from your understanding of the
hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be 
severely
incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls 
the

behavior of the computer.  Software

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Axil Axil
A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more
different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from
different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction.

Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or
early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own
character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are
typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism.

In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time
of conception.

When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two
souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two
souls?
What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions
associated with the formation of a chimera?

=
Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin
formation.

When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later
time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals.
When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could
not have been in place at the time of conception.

I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation
process. Am I correct on this point?





On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking
 deeper.  Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic.

 First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the
 human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width,
 height, and time).  The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted
 by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical.  A Soul is a
 hyper-dimensional entity.  It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our
 physical existence.  That is why it survives our physical death.  Your
 presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and
 non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty
 premise.  The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a
 single egg.

 Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA.
 IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living
 entity.  That is in fact is a faulty understanding.  The soul is not bound
 to any cell or DNA.  It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not
 exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body.  The cells does not
 contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail.  The
 source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion
 of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including
 inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails.

 Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the
 womb.  That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul.  The
 Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul.
 Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt.  God imparted the
 life.  Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman
 experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder.  Immediately at
 conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life.  From that
 point on, that cells contains a living soul.  That life is alive until such
 time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence
 physical death occurs.

 Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with
 life or the soul.  Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into
 that creation, it is not a lviing soul.  As mentioned above, the soul is
 not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you
 transfer DNA to another animal.  The soul is software.  A computer is dead
 without software.  You do not transfer software when you transfer a single
 resistor of a PC into another circuit.

 Last, my understanding is not of my own origin.  I have no intellect to
 extend my theology, since it is not my theology to begin with.  If you
 want to understand man and his soul, you have to study the software manual
 that comes with it.  You need to study the Bible.




 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

  Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is
 fertilized; aka the moment of conception.   In this way of thinking, with
 DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a
 complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to
 contain the soul.   With current technology, any cell in the body can be
 transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human.   So human
 spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-11-01 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any
guidance on any topics goes beyond me.
Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that
lived thousands of year ago?
Giovanni


On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more
 different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from
 different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction.

 Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs
 or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own
 character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are
 typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism.

 In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time
 of conception.

 When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two
 souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two
 souls?
 What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions
 associated with the formation of a chimera?

 =
 Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin
 formation.

 When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later
 time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals.
 When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could
 not have been in place at the time of conception.

 I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation
 process. Am I correct on this point?





 On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 **
 Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking
 deeper.  Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic.

 First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the
 human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width,
 height, and time).  The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted
 by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical.  A Soul is a
 hyper-dimensional entity.  It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our
 physical existence.  That is why it survives our physical death.  Your
 presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and
 non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty
 premise.  The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a
 single egg.

 Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA.
 IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living
 entity.  That is in fact is a faulty understanding.  The soul is not bound
 to any cell or DNA.  It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not
 exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body.  The cells does not
 contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail.  The
 source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion
 of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including
 inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails.

 Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the
 womb.  That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul.  The
 Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul.
 Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt.  God imparted the
 life.  Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman
 experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder.  Immediately at
 conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life.  From that
 point on, that cells contains a living soul.  That life is alive until such
 time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence
 physical death occurs.

 Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with
 life or the soul.  Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into
 that creation, it is not a lviing soul.  As mentioned above, the soul is
 not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you
 transfer DNA to another animal.  The soul is software.  A computer is dead
 without software.  You do not transfer software when you transfer a single
 resistor of a PC into another circuit.

 Last, my understanding is not of my own origin.  I have no intellect to
 extend my theology, since it is not my theology to begin with.  If you
 want to understand man and his soul, you have to study the software manual
 that comes with it.  You need to study the Bible.




 Jojo



 - Original Message -
 *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
 *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

  Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is
 fertilized; aka the moment of conception.   In this way of thinking,
 with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential

Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
Horrible and absurd nonsense.
Giovanni

On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.comwrote:


 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/28/soul-after-death-hameroff-penrose_n_2034711.html

 How far fetched is this?

 According to Dr. Hameroff, in a near-death experience, when the heart
 stops beating, the blood stops flowing, and the microtubules lose their
 quantum state, the quantum information in the microtubules isn't destroyed.
 It's distributed to the universe at large, and if the patient is revived,
 the quantum information can go back to the microtubules.


 --
 Patrick

 www.tRacePerfect.com
 The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
 The quickest puzzle ever!




Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Terry Blanton
I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
 Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
superposition.

Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread ChemE Stewart
If Neurons can sense Neutrinos it makes sense to me we could synch up

Stewart
darkmattersalot.com

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
 consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
 or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
 Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
 specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
 model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
 to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
  Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
 Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
 curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
 superposition.

 Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
 structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
 influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
 embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

 Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)




Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Giovanni Santostasi
I love Roger Penrose great thinker. Hameroff is too out there. I think
Penrose has dissociated from Hameroff because he went too far.
Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. It has been debunked in
many different ways.
Giovanni


On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 9:37 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 If Neurons can sense Neutrinos it makes sense to me we could synch up

 Stewart
 darkmattersalot.com


 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.comwrote:

 I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
 consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
 or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
 Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
 specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
 model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
 to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
  Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
 Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
 curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
 superposition.

 Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
 structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
 influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
 embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

 Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)





Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Terry Blanton
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
gsantost...@gmail.com wrote:

 Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness.

So, who wins that prize?



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Harry Veeder
I like Penrose. IMO he is the most philosophically sophosticated
physicist in academia today. I wonder ...did Penrose ever say anthing
about CF?

Harry

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
gsantost...@gmail.com wrote:
 I love Roger Penrose great thinker. Hameroff is too out there. I think
 Penrose has dissociated from Hameroff because he went too far.
 Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. It has been debunked in
 many different ways.
 Giovanni


 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 9:37 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 If Neurons can sense Neutrinos it makes sense to me we could synch up

 Stewart
 darkmattersalot.com


 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
 consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
 or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
 Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
 specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
 model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
 to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
  Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
 Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
 curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
 superposition.

 Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
 structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
 influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
 embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

 Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)






RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Jones Beene
-Original Message-
From: Harry Veeder [

 I like Penrose. IMO he is the most philosophically sophosticated
physicist in academia today. I wonder ...did Penrose ever say anthing
about CF?

I don't know if he specifically addresses LENR in the modern context, but
even he was negative on CF in the early days - Penrose now strongly believes
that a wave function is much more than a probability distribution AND that
it can collapse. This is easily a good description of the predecessor state
of Ni-H energy gain.

The Road to Reality is a recent book with his interpretation of wave
function collapse, which supports the electron density interpretation of an
atomic orbital. When an incident photon of enough energy hits an electron
orbital it can cause a wave function collapse all the way to point size and
if that sounds a bit like the inverted Rydberg or Deep Dirac Layer - it is
no coincidence.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Road-Reality-Roger-Penrose/dp/0099440687/ref=sr_1_
1?ie=UTF8qid=1351709058sr=8-1keywords=%22The+Road+to+Reality%22

Jones




Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Terry Blanton
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
 gsantost...@gmail.com wrote:

 Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness.

 So, who wins that prize?

Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested
in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I
followed for years:

http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/

Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous
and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the
discussions.

I found it absolutely fascinating.



Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Jojo Jaro
Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul 
is doom to failure from the onset.


Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the 
Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the 
operation of a PC from your understanding of the 
hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be severely 
incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that controls the 
behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.


On the same token, experts in 
Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to 
completely understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the 
soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, 
etc.  The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand 
the behavior of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The brain 
is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the 
mechanism that MS Windows controls.  The analogy is apt and accurate.


Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these 
philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc.  They are at best severely 
incomplete, at worst gravely misleading.


If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the 
software soul.  Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of 
human behavior.



Jojo








- Original Message - 
From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com

To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?



I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
superposition.

Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)






Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread John Berry
Since there have been results of consciousness effecting quantum level
events multiple times, why should it be so absurd.

Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that
quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual
gas/fluid/superfluid aether.

And while most Vorts would probably be unable to get their minds around
this, it really does explain everything very neatly.



On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
  gsantost...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness.
 
  So, who wins that prize?

 Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested
 in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I
 followed for years:

 http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/

 Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous
 and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the
 discussions.

 I found it absolutely fascinating.




Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-31 Thread Patrick Ellul
If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows
installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and
understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as
ones and zeros on a memory device.

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the
 soul is doom to failure from the onset.

 Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the
 Pentuim chip.  Without understanding of the software, can you discern the
 operation of a PC from your understanding of the
 hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc?  At best, you understanding would be
 severely incomplete and faulty.  Software is the intangible thing that
 controls the behavior of the computer.  Software controls the hardware.

 On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/**
 Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/**etc, can never hope to completely
 understand the Human Soul.  It is that intangible entity - the soul, that
 controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc.  The
 Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the
 behavior of man.  You need to study the soul, not the brain.  The brain is
 simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the
 mechanism that MS Windows controls.  The analogy is apt and accurate.

 Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these
 philosophers/psychologists/**psychiatrists/etc.  They are at best
 severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading.

 If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the
 software soul.  Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding
 of human behavior.


 Jojo








 - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?



  I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of
 consciousness to date.  It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction,
 or Orch-OR.  The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir
 Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who
 specialized in anesthesia and cancer research.  Roger was seeking a
 model of the brain that did not require computation.  Hameroff wanted
 to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under.
 Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the
 Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the
 curvature.  Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the
 superposition.

 Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the
 structure.  He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can
 influence other neurons.  Together they see these electrons as a sea
 embedded in the geometry of spacetime.

 Needless to say, they have many critics.  :-)






-- 
Patrick

www.tRacePerfect.com
The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
The quickest puzzle ever!


[Vo]:The Quantum Soul?

2012-10-30 Thread Patrick Ellul
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/28/soul-after-death-hameroff-penrose_n_2034711.html

How far fetched is this?

According to Dr. Hameroff, in a near-death experience, when the heart
stops beating, the blood stops flowing, and the microtubules lose their
quantum state, the quantum information in the microtubules isn't destroyed.
It's distributed to the universe at large, and if the patient is revived,
the quantum information can go back to the microtubules.


-- 
Patrick

www.tRacePerfect.com
The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
The quickest puzzle ever!