Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
I agree that there is something very interesting going on with microtubules. I beleive that water has a role to play in this and have an article exploring this possibility for FtsZ, the procaryotic homolgue of tubulin, the building block of microtubules. In microtubules this should provide an environment within which the microtubules could well be doing some very interesting things. However, I dont think they are the substrate for conciousness. Firstly microtubules, even in neurons are far to dynamic to be able to store persistent information. If you start thinking instead of microtubules being able to 'tune in' to information that is not physically stored in the microtubules then there is nothing in the microtubules that tunes the information to a specific individual, which is surely what is neede for a quantum soul. For this part of the story I think you need to go elsewhere, particularly the nucleus, and particularly within the nucleus to the nucleolus. Try looking up information about what DNA is found in the nucleolus (as well as the ribosomal genes) and the structure of this DNA, and also, returning to Hameroff, , the effect of anaesthetics on the nucleolus. Nigel Dyer On 18/01/2014 05:41, H Veeder wrote: My Spider Senses are starting to tingle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kek3GqbsTk Harry On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in 'Microtubules' Inside Brain Neurons Supports Controversial Theory of Consciousness Jan. 16, 2014 — A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in 'Microtubules' Inside Brain Neurons Supports Controversial Theory of Consciousness Jan. 16, 2014 — A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
My Spider Senses are starting to tingle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kek3GqbsTk Harry On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in 'Microtubules' Inside Brain Neurons Supports Controversial Theory of Consciousness Jan. 16, 2014 — A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Interviews with Hameroff: http://noetic.org/noetic/issue-thirteen-august/what-is-consciousness-hameroff/ http://www.skeptiko.com/stuart-hameroff-on-quantum-consciousness-and-singularity/ Excerpt from the first: *Schlitz:* That brings up the criticism that the brain can’t be a quantum processor because it’s too wet or too warm or whatever the criticism happens to be. What I’m hearing you say is that, in your view, the brain can be a signaling processor for a kind of quantum field. How does that happen then? How do you bring microtubules into this idea of the brain as a quantum processor? *Hameroff: *First of all, what you said is exactly right. Most people do criticize the view that Roger Penrose and I came out with in 1995—that quantum computing and these microtubules inside brain neurons connect us to the fundamental level of the universe. They say, “Everybody know*s* that the brain is too warm, wet, and noisy to be a quantum computer.” They say this because of the problem technologists, engineers, and physicists face when trying to build quantum computers in a laboratory that will utilize these delicate quantum states. I should say a little bit about what that means: quantum superposition, where something can be in two states or places at the same time. When they try to do this with ions, individual atoms, or small particles, they run into the problem that any thermal vibration, any heat, will disrupt and destroy the quantum superposition and cause decoherence. And so to build a quantum computer in the laboratory and avoid the heat and the vibrations caused by the heat, they build them at absolute zero temperature. But biology has had billions of years to evolve mechanisms to avoid decoherence, and, more importantly, it’s probable that biology has developed mechanisms to use the heat to drive coherence like a laser. A laser is a quantum device; it uses heat not to destroy quantum coherence but to pump it. And so we—and a lot of people—think that biology uses heat and ambient energy to *drive* quantum coherence, not destroy it. Recent evidence in the last five or six years has come down pretty strongly on our side. For example, it’s been discovered that photosynthesis—the operation in all plants that give rise to our food, to everything we eat—utilizes quantum coherence. The photons from the sun are collected in one part of the cell and conveyed to another part of the cell to be made into chemical energy. This conductance of energy from point A to point B utilizes quantum coherence in ambient temperatures. If this happens in something as fundamental as photosynthesis, then it’s likely to be found throughout biology. And more importantly to our case, a fellow in Japan named Anirban Bandyopadhyay—it’s a hard name to say, but I think he’ll be quite famous within a few years—recently found that when vibrated at the right frequency, microtubules become quantum devices. And when that work comes out—Bandyopadhyay is presently writing it— it’s going to blow this field wide open.
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
An interview with Hameroff: Recent evidence in the last five or six years has come down pretty strongly on our side. For example, it’s been discovered that photosynthesis—the operation in all plants that give rise to our food, to everything we eat—utilizes quantum coherence. . . . If this happens in something as fundamental as photosynthesis, then it’s likely to be found throughout biology. Whoa. Excellent point. I had not thought of that. Once a biological mechanism evolves it tends to spread far and wide, in surprising ways. I have been kind of dismissing this hypothesis because of too hot, too wet problem the author cites. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Regarding the state of our souls: All I noze is that somehow we find ourselves living... and then we die. While transitioning between these two quantum states of existence I finally began to realize the fact that the universe, to me, is one big gigantic question mark, one that I will never be able to solve. Strangely, when I began to accept the horrible predicament I found myself in I began to feel less anxious. Who sez god doesn't have wicked sense of humor. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
If it mans wisdom , your right (bleet,bleet ) If its Gods wisdom, your probably the goat Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 23:56:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? From: gsantost...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any guidance on any topics goes beyond me. Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that lived thousands of year ago? Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction.Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism. In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of conception. When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls? What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions associated with the formation of a chimera? = Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin formation. When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals.When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could not have been in place at the time of conception. I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation process. Am I correct on this point? On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking deeper. Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic. First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time). The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical. A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity. It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence. That is why it survives our physical death. Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty premise. The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a single egg. Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA. IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living entity. That is in fact is a faulty understanding. The soul is not bound to any cell or DNA. It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body. The cells does not contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail. The source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails. Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the womb. That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul. The Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul. Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt. God imparted the life. Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder. Immediately at conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life. From that point on, that cells contains a living soul. That life is alive until such time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death occurs. Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with life or the soul. Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into that creation, it is not a lviing soul. As mentioned above, the soul is not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you transfer DNA to another animal. The soul is software. A computer is dead without software. You do not transfer software when you transfer a single resistor of a PC into another circuit. Last, my understanding is not of my own origin. I have no intellect to extend my theology, since it is not my theology to begin with. If you want to understand man and his soul, you have to study the software manual that comes with it. You need to study the Bible. Jojo - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Tell me, my friend, which goat herder wrote the Bible? It appears you have more information than I about the authorship of the Bible. Tell me, please, what is the name of the goat herder that wrote the entirety of the Bible? Have you even read the Bible? You know, It says in the Bible Giovanni is an idiot. You say No, it does not. I say How do you know, when you haven't read it? LOL Jojo PS. Actually, The Bible calls people like Giovanni much more worse labels than an idiot. Find out... read it for yourself and you'll see what I mean. - Original Message - From: Giovanni Santostasi To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any guidance on any topics goes beyond me. Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that lived thousands of year ago? Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction. Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism. In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of conception. When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls? What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions associated with the formation of a chimera? = Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin formation. When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals. When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could not have been in place at the time of conception. I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation process. Am I correct on this point? On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking deeper. Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic. First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time). The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical. A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity. It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence. That is why it survives our physical death. Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty premise. The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a single egg. Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA. IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living entity. That is in fact is a faulty understanding. The soul is not bound to any cell or DNA. It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body. The cells does not contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail. The source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails. Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the womb. That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul. The Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul. Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt. God imparted the life. Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder. Immediately at conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life. From that point on, that cells contains a living soul. That life is alive until such time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death occurs. Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with life or the soul. Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into that creation, it is not a lviing soul. As mentioned above, the soul is not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you transfer DNA to another animal. The soul
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Dear Jojo, If you know so well the Bible, please tell me which verse from the Apocalypse can be interpreted as prediction of the TV and the Internet? Please answer, do not explain it away. Thanks. Peter On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Tell me, my friend, which goat herder wrote the Bible? It appears you have more information than I about the authorship of the Bible. Tell me, please, what is the name of the goat herder that wrote the entirety of the Bible? Have you even read the Bible? You know, It says in the Bible Giovanni is an idiot. You say No, it does not. I say How do you know, when you haven't read it? LOL Jojo PS. Actually, The Bible calls people like Giovanni much more worse labels than an idiot. Find out... read it for yourself and you'll see what I mean. - Original Message - *From:* Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 12:56 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any guidance on any topics goes beyond me. Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that lived thousands of year ago? Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction. Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism. In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of conception. When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls? What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions associated with the formation of a chimera? = Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin formation. When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals. When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could not have been in place at the time of conception. I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation process. Am I correct on this point? On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking deeper. Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic. First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time). The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical. A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity. It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence. That is why it survives our physical death. Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty premise. The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a single egg. Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA. IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living entity. That is in fact is a faulty understanding. The soul is not bound to any cell or DNA. It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body. The cells does not contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail. The source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails. Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the womb. That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul. The Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul. Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt. God imparted the life. Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder. Immediately at conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life. From that point on, that cells contains a living soul. That life is alive until such time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death occurs. Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with life or the soul. Man can
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Axil, much confusion exists because we do not have firm definitions of the terms we use. Much like the confusion that accompanies disscusions about Darwinian Evolution. We can't agree whether Darwinian Evolution is right or wrong, when we don't even have a good definition of what a species is. I believe this vagueness contributes to your misunderstanding below. Well, Let me try to define how the Bible defines certain things. You asked for verses, so I will oblige and try to answer with verses as much as possible Genesis 1 defines what a species is. 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 2 further elaborates on how God created these creatures. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. Hence, it is clear that all original creatures were created from the ground (dirt). Furthermore, it is abundantly clear with the terms his kind, that reproduction can only occur when 2 individuals of the same kind (species) come together. They can not reporoduce outside of their kind.This is the definition of a speicies. Reproduction is a sufficient but not a necessary condition for defining a species. Only creature that reproduce after their kind is the natural order of things. Any genetic hybridization is outside of their kind and hence does not originate from God. Genesis 2 explains the origins of man and the living soul. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man was formed from Dust of the ground (dirt), as well as all original creatures. Then God imparted to him a living soul. Hence, we need to understand that the existence of any cell is NOT the existence of a soul. The soul can only come from God. Creatures created in the lab thru genetic manipulation has not been imparted the breath of life, hence not a living soul. Regarding twins. Both individuals are conceived in the womb, and hence is the natural order of things. Both individuals would have been imparted the breathe of life by God during conception. Each would have its own soul distinct from the other. You see, it matters not whether we were created directly from dust (like Adam), or from a rib bone of Adam (like Eve) or from egg and sperm (like all the rest of us). The important thing is that in all these acts of creation, God is the one doing the creation. Hence, he imparts his breathe of life to Adam, Eve and to the rest of us who are conceived under the natural order of things God ordained. Cloning, hybridization, genetic manipulation, artificial chimeras and other such genetic techniques involves actions outside the involvement of God, hence, he did not breathe into those creatures the breathe of life; hence NOT a living soul. I beleive the Bible is clear on this teaching. Jojo - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction. Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism. In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of conception. When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls? What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions associated with the formation of a chimera
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
OK, I will oblige though I'm super busy. I presume that you are asking where in the Bible the existence of TV and the Internet was predicted, more specifically how it is predicted in the End-times apocalyptic scenario. I am pretty sure you are testing me to see if I am as knowledgeable as I claim to be, so let me put your mind at ease. I am not wise or knowledgeable by myself. In fact, I am a fool. But the Wisdom is found in the Bible. So, let me show you where. In the Book of Revelation, it explains the rise of a Global World leader - the Anti-Christ, who will set up a Global World Government with him as the Monarch/King/Leader/Emperor/etc. There are too many verses for this so I do not have the time to explicitly list each one. Besides, Bill would surely ban me if I jammed up his list server with all the verses. You're gonna have to read the book yourself. But, I mention the above factiod to answer your question regarding the existence of TV and the Internet in the End Times scenario. In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed by this Anti-Christ 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days that can be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations. This is a clear referrence to many different peoples speaking many different languages, quite obviously from many different countries. So, let me ask you this? How can all peoples of the Earth see this one event. Did 6 Billion people fly to this particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead bodies laying on the street. Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube. This is only possible with TV and the Internet. This my friend, is the answer to your question. You asked for a specific prediction, the Bible provides one. And the Bible contains many much more technological predictions like this. Did you know that the Bible also predicts the existence of Cold Fusion? Read it and find out for yourself. How a goat herder could have written this by himself stretches any credible imagination to the absurd breaking point. LOL. Jojo PS. Did I pass your silly little test? - Original Message - From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? Dear Jojo, If you know so well the Bible, please tell me which verse from the Apocalypse can be interpreted as prediction of the TV and the Internet? Please answer, do not explain it away. Thanks. Peter On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Tell me, my friend, which goat herder wrote the Bible? It appears you have more information than I about the authorship of the Bible. Tell me, please, what is the name of the goat herder that wrote the entirety of the Bible? Have you even read the Bible? You know, It says in the Bible Giovanni is an idiot. You say No, it does not. I say How do you know, when you haven't read it? LOL Jojo PS. Actually, The Bible calls people like Giovanni much more worse labels than an idiot. Find out... read it for yourself and you'll see what I mean. - Original Message - From: Giovanni Santostasi To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
If you are super-busy, why are you wasting your time? Yes, you have passed the test I congratulate you but it is a blasphemy to say that the test is silly. I have it from my friend and counselor for theological issues, a very famous Romanian Baptist preacher. Calling this test silly is equivalent to putting in doubt the inerrancy of the Bible. I am not sharing this idea but I respect other people's opinion. I think you could well do the same, the dialogue between science and religion is- parallel monologs. Cold Fusion had its religious martyrs- the Cincinnati Group Stan and Don who had worked with dangerous radioactive stuff and both have died by leukemia. They were Charismatic Christians. See: http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/IE13-14CincinattiGroup.pdf and: http://www.infinite-energy.com/images/pdfs/astiworkshop.pdf They have put their work and lives where their faith was. Because we both are busy, let's stop here, OK? Peter On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** OK, I will oblige though I'm super busy. I presume that you are asking where in the Bible the existence of TV and the Internet was predicted, more specifically how it is predicted in the End-times apocalyptic scenario. I am pretty sure you are testing me to see if I am as knowledgeable as I claim to be, so let me put your mind at ease. I am not wise or knowledgeable by myself. In fact, I am a fool. But the Wisdom is found in the Bible. So, let me show you where. In the Book of Revelation, it explains the rise of a Global World leader - the Anti-Christ, who will set up a Global World Government with him as the Monarch/King/Leader/Emperor/etc. There are too many verses for this so I do not have the time to explicitly list each one. Besides, Bill would surely ban me if I jammed up his list server with all the verses. You're gonna have to read the book yourself. But, I mention the above factiod to answer your question regarding the existence of TV and the Internet in the End Times scenario. In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed by this Anti-Christ **3** And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. **4** These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. **5** And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. **6** These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. **7** And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. **8** And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. **9** And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. **10** And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. **11** And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days that can be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations. This is a clear referrence to many different peoples speaking many different languages, quite obviously from many different countries. So, let me ask you this? How can all peoples of the Earth see this one event. Did 6 Billion people fly to this particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead bodies laying on the street. Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube. This is only possible with TV and the Internet. This my friend, is the answer to your question. You asked for a specific prediction, the Bible provides one. And the Bible contains many much more technological predictions like this. Did you know that the Bible also predicts the existence of Cold Fusion? Read it and find out for yourself. How a goat herder could have written this by himself stretches any credible imagination to the absurd breaking point. LOL. Jojo PS. Did I pass your silly little test? - Original Message - *From:* Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 5:19 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? Dear Jojo, If you know so well
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
What is your mission as a christain? What have you done for the world lately other than complain, condemn and wait around for the messiah? harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Jojo - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 3:18 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements like radical orthodoxy. Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: FYI Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/ In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself, once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley profiles John Milbank. The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will have some religion - the only question is which religion. British theologian John Milbank agrees. A purely secular society, in Milbank's view, is simply not viable. The only choice in our time, he says, is between religion and nihilism. But religion for him means something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living in a spiritually flattened world. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Which version of the bible is this?: 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. The city in which this happens may simply be cosmopolitan so many of the local observers have different ethnic, national and linguistic backgrounds. Harry On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 6:21 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed by this Anti-Christ **3** And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. **4** These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. **5** And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. **6** These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. **7** And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. **8** And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. **9** And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. **10** And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. **11** And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days that can be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations. This is a clear referrence to many different peoples speaking many different languages, quite obviously from many different countries. So, let me ask you this? How can all peoples of the Earth see this one event. Did 6 Billion people fly to this particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead bodies laying on the street. Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube. This is only possible with TV and the Internet. This my friend, is the answer to your question. You asked for a specific prediction, the Bible provides one. And the Bible contains many much more technological predictions like this. Did you know that the Bible also predicts the existence of Cold Fusion? Read it and find out for yourself. How a goat herder could have written this by himself stretches any credible imagination to the absurd breaking point. LOL. PS. Did I pass your silly little test?
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians, if they had their way, would use the government to impose their beliefs on everyone, before the messiah has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Harry
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion than religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name calling. Many xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger motivation not to follow their distorted world view. Giovanni On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians, if they had their way, would use the government to impose their beliefs on everyone, before the messiah has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Harry
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies? Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery. from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.comwrote: One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion than religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name calling. Many xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger motivation not to follow their distorted world view. Giovanni On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians, if they had their way, would use the government to impose their beliefs on everyone, before the messiah has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Harry
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
What we know that the authors of the bible were liars, they even lied about their own identity. http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God-Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/0062012614 On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.comwrote: Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies? Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery. from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion than religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name calling. Many xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger motivation not to follow their distorted world view. Giovanni On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians, if they had their way, would use the government to impose their beliefs on everyone, before the messiah has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Harry
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Those who are attempting to install a monarchy before the return of Jesus Christ are not doing true Christian work. They're not Christians as far as I'm concerned. Jojo - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 3:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians, if they had their way, would use the government to impose their beliefs on everyone, before the messiah has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Harry
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
This is KJV Bible. No other version is good. As for what city, the passage gives us hints. Obvously it can't be Sodom since it has been destroyed and Egypt is not a city. The other possibility is Jerusalem cause that is where our Lord was crucified. Some scholars believe it might be referring to the new emergent capital of the new world government - Babylon. The City of Babylon has always been the center of rebellion against God since the olden days. It has always been the center of occultic, pagan and evil practices. Every occultic, pagan and new age religion can be traced back to Babylon. This is where Nimrod started his first world empire and built a rebellious city Babel (as in Tower of Babel - aka Babylon). Many Scholars believe that Babylon will once again rise to prominence and center of power before the end. Many believe Babylon is the reason why our Illuminati Shadow government sent our troops there - to secure Babylon for their purposes. If you ask me, I'll place my bet on Babylon as the city being referred to here. If it is Babylon, then you may have a point in claiming that maybe there will just be a lot of ethnic groups there; except that the passage clearly indicates nations not just tongues. Clearly, it is referring to countries, not just ethnic groups. And of course, the phrase they that dwell upon the Earth clearly indicates that this is a global event witnessed by all peoples from all nations. Jojo - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 3:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? Which version of the bible is this?: 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. The city in which this happens may simply be cosmopolitan so many of the local observers have different ethnic, national and linguistic backgrounds. Harry On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 6:21 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: In Revelation 11, it talks of 2 witnesses for God and how they were killed by this Anti-Christ 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. So, here's an event that occured in one city over a span of 3.5 days that can be seen by people and kindreds and tongues and nations. This is a clear referrence to many different peoples speaking many different languages, quite obviously from many different countries. So, let me ask you this? How can all peoples of the Earth see this one event. Did 6 Billion people fly to this particular city in 3.5 days and see their dead bodies laying on the street. Clearly, this passage is an allusion to the existence of something like Live TV broadcast (CNN) or Internet YouTube. This is only possible with TV and the Internet. This my friend, is the answer to your question. You asked for a specific prediction, the Bible provides one. And the Bible contains many much more technological predictions like this. Did you know that the Bible also predicts the existence of Cold Fusion? Read it and find out for yourself. How a goat herder could have written this by himself stretches any credible imagination to the absurd breaking point. LOL. PS. Did I pass your silly little test?
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
LOL... So, you are more knowledgeable than I, yet you can't name the goat herder who wrote the Bible. In your contention, you say that the Books of the Bible were written by forgers. Yet, you don't know who these forgers are. And yet, you know for sure they were goat herders. OK, WHATEVER It won't be long before we'll know who's lying, won't we? If I am wrong and I followed a goat herder, at most, I've only wasted my life. If you are wrong and indeed you followed the wrong religion (Atheism), then you've wasted your eternity. Frankly, I'd rather waste my life than waste my eternity. But, I AM NOT WRONG. I know whom I have believed Jojo PS: You started the nastiness, so don't complain that you're recieving what you dished out. I am capable of discussing these controversial subjects politely, but I won't suffer insults. Especially from those who are ignorant of the subject. - Original Message - From: Giovanni Santostasi To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 5:03 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? What we know that the authors of the bible were liars, they even lied about their own identity. http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God-Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/0062012614 On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Apart from the most rabid fundamentalists among us, nearly everyone admits that the Bible might contain errors -- a faulty creation story here, a historical mistake there, a contradiction or two in some other place. But is it possible that the problem is worse than that -- that the Bible actually contains lies? Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery. from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: One of the main reasons why I'm an atheist is because I have read the bible. It turns out that atheists are much more knowledgeable in religion than religious people. It tells a lot that you are resorting to name calling. Many xians are not even nice people, that is even a stronger motivation not to follow their distorted world view. Giovanni On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Maybe you don't, but do you speak for all christians? Many christians, if they had their way, would use the government to impose their beliefs on everyone, before the messiah has returned. That is what I mean by theocractic rule. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Harry
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the mechanism that MS Windows controls. The analogy is apt and accurate. Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc. They are at best severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading. If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the software soul. Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of human behavior. Jojo - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-) -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
John Berry wrote: Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual gas/fluid/superfluid aether. Do tell John. Many Vorts love new hypotheses, especially when they have some data to go along with them. -Mark Iverson From: John Berry [mailto:berry.joh...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:13 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? Since there have been results of consciousness effecting quantum level events multiple times, why should it be so absurd. Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual gas/fluid/superfluid aether. And while most Vorts would probably be unable to get their minds around this, it really does explain everything very neatly. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. So, who wins that prize? Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I followed for years: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/ Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the discussions. I found it absolutely fascinating.
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
For now I will pass. On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:16 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: John Berry wrote: “Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual gas/fluid/superfluid aether.” ** ** Do tell John… Many Vorts love new hypotheses, especially when they have some data to go along with them. ** ** -Mark Iverson ** ** *From:* John Berry [mailto:berry.joh...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:13 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? ** ** Since there have been results of consciousness effecting quantum level events multiple times, why should it be so absurd. ** ** Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual gas/fluid/superfluid aether. ** ** And while most Vorts would probably be unable to get their minds around this, it really does explain everything very neatly. ** ** ** ** On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. So, who wins that prize? Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I followed for years: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/ Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the discussions. I found it absolutely fascinating. ** **
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
I don't think the experience of Dr. Eben Alexander has been mentioned on Vortex: http://www.skeptiko.com/eben-alexander-the-medical-mystery-of-near-death-experience/ His is a fascinating story.
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
FYI Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/ In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself, once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley profiles John Milbank. The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will have some religion - the only question is which religion. British theologian John Milbank agrees. A purely secular society, in Milbank's view, is simply not viable. The only choice in our time, he says, is between religion and nihilism. But religion for him means something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living in a spiritually flattened world. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the mechanism that MS Windows controls. The analogy is apt and accurate. Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc. They are at best severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading. If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the software soul. Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of human behavior. Jojo - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements like radical orthodoxy. Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: FYI Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/ In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself, once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley profiles John Milbank. The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will have some religion - the only question is which religion. British theologian John Milbank agrees. A purely secular society, in Milbank's view, is simply not viable. The only choice in our time, he says, is between religion and nihilism. But religion for him means something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living in a spiritually flattened world. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the mechanism that MS Windows controls. The analogy is apt and accurate. Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc. They are at best severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading. If you want to understand
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body. If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your finger nails? If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul. If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul? Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define the soul. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/** Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/**etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the mechanism that MS Windows controls. The analogy is apt and accurate. Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these philosophers/psychologists/**psychiatrists/etc. They are at best severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading. If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the software soul. Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of human behavior. Jojo - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Mytho-poetic? There is enough beauty and poetry in science as it is. We don't need made up stories. Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements like radical orthodoxy. Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: FYI Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/ In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself, once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley profiles John Milbank. The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will have some religion - the only question is which religion. British theologian John Milbank agrees. A purely secular society, in Milbank's view, is simply not viable. The only choice in our time, he says, is between religion and nihilism. But religion for him means something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living in a spiritually flattened world. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like
RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Can theology and our science ever fully agree Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule knowledge says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his wings , is He part chook knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He part maniac This I trust , after examineing his words and actions Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father not long after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified him Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding Pete Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? From: janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body. If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your finger nails? If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul. If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul? Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define the soul. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
This is not a complete criticism but it basically summarizes the main point, there is no need to introduce quantum mechanics to explain consciousness. We have not yet a full explanation but everything we know about neuroscience points to an explanation that would need just classical physics (networks and dynamical systems). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=Gq9ldQys3_ENR=1 Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Statewide Homes Peter B ddc...@hotmail.comwrote: Can theology and our science ever fully agree Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule knowledge says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his wings , is He part chook knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He part maniac This I trust , after examineing his words and actions Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father not long after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified him Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding Pete -- Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? From: janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body. If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your finger nails? If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul. If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul? Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define the soul. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
This is a and more complete criticism of Penrose ideas on consciousness. http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~llandau/Homepage/Math/penrose.html Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.comwrote: This is not a complete criticism but it basically summarizes the main point, there is no need to introduce quantum mechanics to explain consciousness. We have not yet a full explanation but everything we know about neuroscience points to an explanation that would need just classical physics (networks and dynamical systems). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=Gq9ldQys3_ENR=1 Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Statewide Homes Peter B ddc...@hotmail.com wrote: Can theology and our science ever fully agree Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule knowledge says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his wings , is He part chook knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He part maniac This I trust , after examineing his words and actions Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father not long after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified him Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding Pete -- Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? From: janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body. If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your finger nails? If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul. If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul? Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define the soul. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
And : http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2007/10/26/quantum-consciousness-and-the/ On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.comwrote: This is a and more complete criticism of Penrose ideas on consciousness. http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~llandau/Homepage/Math/penrose.html Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: This is not a complete criticism but it basically summarizes the main point, there is no need to introduce quantum mechanics to explain consciousness. We have not yet a full explanation but everything we know about neuroscience points to an explanation that would need just classical physics (networks and dynamical systems). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=Gq9ldQys3_ENR=1 Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:51 PM, Statewide Homes Peter B ddc...@hotmail.com wrote: Can theology and our science ever fully agree Can our little brains fully understand Gods mind Can knowledge fully understand the things of the Spirit Knowledge says The Spirit spoke through a donkey , is God part mule knowledge says He protects us and gathers us and hides us under his wings , is He part chook knowledge says He organised his own son to be Tortued and killed , is He part maniac This I trust , after examineing his words and actions Jesus said to Phillip when you see me , you see the Father not long after these words Jesus let them do what they wanted . They crucified him Knowledge says , I now have eternal life , His love has bought me Science is great , I enjoy it . Theology is interesting and helpful, but in the end I personally had to trust in His love for me . This is the thing that has given me a Peace that has surpast my understanding Pete -- Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 16:17:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? From: janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body. If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your finger nails? If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul. If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul? Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define the soul. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Myth, poetry and dreams tell us the meaning of life. The direction of science and society is infleunced by them. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Mytho-poetic? There is enough beauty and poetry in science as it is. We don't need made up stories. Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements like radical orthodoxy. Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: FYI Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/ In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself, once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley profiles John Milbank. The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will have some religion - the only question is which religion. British theologian John Milbank agrees. A purely secular society, in Milbank's view, is simply not viable. The only choice in our time, he says, is between religion and nihilism. But religion for him means something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living in a spiritually flattened world. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking deeper. Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic. First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time). The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical. A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity. It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence. That is why it survives our physical death. Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty premise. The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a single egg. Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA. IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living entity. That is in fact is a faulty understanding. The soul is not bound to any cell or DNA. It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body. The cells does not contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail. The source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails. Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the womb. That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul. The Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul. Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt. God imparted the life. Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder. Immediately at conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life. From that point on, that cells contains a living soul. That life is alive until such time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death occurs. Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with life or the soul. Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into that creation, it is not a lviing soul. As mentioned above, the soul is not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you transfer DNA to another animal. The soul is software. A computer is dead without software. You do not transfer software when you transfer a single resistor of a PC into another circuit. Last, my understanding is not of my own origin. I have no intellect to extend my theology, since it is not my theology to begin with. If you want to understand man and his soul, you have to study the software manual that comes with it. You need to study the Bible. Jojo - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body. If this is true, do you commit murder when you cut your hair or trim your finger nails? If a mouse is given flawed disease carrying human DNA to simulate human disease or a goat is given human genes to produce human insulin, have these animals become human with a soul. If a geneticist copies human DNA, and puts it into a animal cell, does the animal become human? What parts of human DNA define the soul? Please extend your theology into the domain of genetic manipulation in your quest to define the soul. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Harry, it seems that you as well as other people are always concerned with imposing a theocratic rule. No one wants a theocratic rule, including me. I don't believe any Christian person is attempting to do that, so your concerns are without merit. Christians know better than to impose any monarchy by ourselves. Jesus Christ will install himself as a Monarch when he comes back without any help from any of us. Hence, that Monarchy will be established totally of his own power, not by the power of any Christian movement. It will be a time of good and just governance - no corruption and injustice that currently plagues our society.+ Jojo - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 3:18 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? I agree that secularism is in crisis, but this doesn't mean we must return to a theocratic rule which is the danger implied by movements like radical orthodoxy. Secularism neeeds a more anthropological (mytho-poetic) foundation rather than the narrow structures of a particular science or religion. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: FYI Seevn part radio show called Myth of the Secular. This about part six. http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2012/10/29/the-myth-of-the-secular-part-6/ In 1990 British theologian John Milbank published a five-hundred-page manifesto called Theology and Social Theory: Beyond Secular Reason. The book argued that theology should stop deferring to social theories that are just second-hand theology and declare itself, once again, the queen of the sciences. The book led, in time, to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. IDEAS producer David Cayley profiles John Milbank. The English poet William Blake once wrote that humanity must and will have some religion - the only question is which religion. British theologian John Milbank agrees. A purely secular society, in Milbank's view, is simply not viable. The only choice in our time, he says, is between religion and nihilism. But religion for him means something more than just a private moment with God on a Sunday morning - it means a way of life. Milbank belongs to a movement called Radical Orthodoxy. Under its banner, he and a group of like-minded colleagues have argued that modern Western societies have lost touch with authentic Christianity and, as a result, are now living in a spiritually flattened world. Harry On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: You've made my point better than I. For when you are studying the ones and zeros wherever they may persist, you are in fact studying the software. The ones and zeros are not hardware, they're software. Much like the soul. We can spend a hundred lifetimes studying neuron chemical reactions, electrical impulses, cellular structure of brain cells and other psychological theories and mumbo-jumbo; we will never understand how Human consciousness works. To understand the human soul, one needs to understand its creator. Much like studying the software requires an understanding of Microsoft Software Engineer's design methods and techniques, in fact, a understanding of the man himself. Tell me, can you reverse engineer the entire windows operating system from the ones and zeros of machine code? Doesn't understanding windows require understanding of its design at a higher level? not at the machine code level? possibly by interviewing the designer and studying his work? Why would one think he can understand the human soul by studying the individual ones and zeros of the neurons? You see, this issue goes deeper than just discussions about the human soul. This issue involves our humanistic prederilection to avoid acknowledging the creator. We try our best to understand ourselves without studying the human blueprint. Such efforts are always doom to fail, much like the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction. Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism. In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of conception. When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls? What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions associated with the formation of a chimera? = Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin formation. When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals. When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could not have been in place at the time of conception. I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation process. Am I correct on this point? On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking deeper. Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic. First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time). The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical. A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity. It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence. That is why it survives our physical death. Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty premise. The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a single egg. Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA. IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living entity. That is in fact is a faulty understanding. The soul is not bound to any cell or DNA. It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body. The cells does not contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail. The source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails. Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the womb. That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul. The Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul. Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt. God imparted the life. Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder. Immediately at conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life. From that point on, that cells contains a living soul. That life is alive until such time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death occurs. Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with life or the soul. Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into that creation, it is not a lviing soul. As mentioned above, the soul is not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you transfer DNA to another animal. The soul is software. A computer is dead without software. You do not transfer software when you transfer a single resistor of a PC into another circuit. Last, my understanding is not of my own origin. I have no intellect to extend my theology, since it is not my theology to begin with. If you want to understand man and his soul, you have to study the software manual that comes with it. You need to study the Bible. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential to form a complete person, but at the time of conception no organ is yet formed to contain the soul. With current technology, any cell in the body can be transformed into a omnipotent cell that can produce a human. So human spiritual characteristic is inherent in any DNA present in the human body
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
How can anybody in the 21st century still mention the bible for any guidance on any topics goes beyond me. Don't you realize it is the wisdom of some ignorant goat herder that lived thousands of year ago? Giovanni On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: A chimera or chimaera is a single organism that is composed of two or more different populations of genetically distinct cells that originated from different zygotes involved in sexual reproduction. Chimeras are formed from at least four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting organism is a mixture of tissues. Chimeras are typically seen in animals; there are some reports of human chimerism. In the process of human chimerism, two separate souls existed at the time of conception. When the early embryos fused together sometime after conception, does two souls become one? Or does one of the souls die? Does the chimera have two souls? What Bible verse direct us in answering these soul allocation questions associated with the formation of a chimera? = Regarding the soul formation process associated with identical twin formation. When the soul is created at conception, one soul is formed. But at a later time, the blastocyst undergoes fission into two separate individuals. When is the soul of the second individual formed? This second soul could not have been in place at the time of conception. I contend that the Bible does not cover this secondary soul creation process. Am I correct on this point? On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Axil, I always like your responses because you always get me thinking deeper. Anyways, I feel there are a few errors in your logic. First, you need to realize that the body - cells, DNA, etc. that form the human physical attributes exist in only 4 dimensions (length, width, height, and time). The soul on the other hand, comes from God and imparted by God and hence is Spiritual - metaphysical. A Soul is a hyper-dimensional entity. It exists beyond the 4 dimensions of our physical existence. That is why it survives our physical death. Your presupposition that a single fertilized egg, being small and non-functionalized, therefore can not contain the soul is a faulty premise. The soul is not bound by the size nor the non-functionality of a single egg. Second, you presuppose that the soul is bound to the cells and DNA. IOW, you say that by destroying a fingernail, you are killing a living entity. That is in fact is a faulty understanding. The soul is not bound to any cell or DNA. It exist 'with' our physical cells, DNA and body; not exist 'because of' our physical cells, DNA and body. The cells does not contaiin part of a soul that you kill when you trim your fingernail. The source of your (mis)understanding is the ancient occultic religion of animism, which presupposes that everything has a soul, including inanimate objects like rocks and fingernails. Third. The creator of our being, clearly says that life starts in the womb. That means, conception is the time He imparts the living soul. The Bible teaches that God breathed into Adam and Adam became a Living soul. Before God's breathe, Adam was just a collection of dirt. God imparted the life. Before conception, the female egg is not alive, hence, when a woman experiences a menstrual cycle, that is not murder. Immediately at conception, God breathe into that union of egg and sperm a life. From that point on, that cells contains a living soul. That life is alive until such time as God decides to separate that living soul from that body, hence physical death occurs. Fourth, Putting human DNA to animal or vice versa has nothing to do with life or the soul. Man can do this all day long but until God breathes into that creation, it is not a lviing soul. As mentioned above, the soul is not bound to a cell or single DNA that you carry along with it when you transfer DNA to another animal. The soul is software. A computer is dead without software. You do not transfer software when you transfer a single resistor of a PC into another circuit. Last, my understanding is not of my own origin. I have no intellect to extend my theology, since it is not my theology to begin with. If you want to understand man and his soul, you have to study the software manual that comes with it. You need to study the Bible. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, November 02, 2012 4:17 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? Some believe that the soul comes into being when the human egg is fertilized; aka the moment of conception. In this way of thinking, with DNA as the software of the soul, the human DNA has the potential
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Horrible and absurd nonsense. Giovanni On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.comwrote: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/28/soul-after-death-hameroff-penrose_n_2034711.html How far fetched is this? According to Dr. Hameroff, in a near-death experience, when the heart stops beating, the blood stops flowing, and the microtubules lose their quantum state, the quantum information in the microtubules isn't destroyed. It's distributed to the universe at large, and if the patient is revived, the quantum information can go back to the microtubules. -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
If Neurons can sense Neutrinos it makes sense to me we could synch up Stewart darkmattersalot.com On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
I love Roger Penrose great thinker. Hameroff is too out there. I think Penrose has dissociated from Hameroff because he went too far. Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. It has been debunked in many different ways. Giovanni On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 9:37 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: If Neurons can sense Neutrinos it makes sense to me we could synch up Stewart darkmattersalot.com On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.comwrote: I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. So, who wins that prize?
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
I like Penrose. IMO he is the most philosophically sophosticated physicist in academia today. I wonder ...did Penrose ever say anthing about CF? Harry On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: I love Roger Penrose great thinker. Hameroff is too out there. I think Penrose has dissociated from Hameroff because he went too far. Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. It has been debunked in many different ways. Giovanni On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 9:37 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: If Neurons can sense Neutrinos it makes sense to me we could synch up Stewart darkmattersalot.com On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:15 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
RE: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
-Original Message- From: Harry Veeder [ I like Penrose. IMO he is the most philosophically sophosticated physicist in academia today. I wonder ...did Penrose ever say anthing about CF? I don't know if he specifically addresses LENR in the modern context, but even he was negative on CF in the early days - Penrose now strongly believes that a wave function is much more than a probability distribution AND that it can collapse. This is easily a good description of the predecessor state of Ni-H energy gain. The Road to Reality is a recent book with his interpretation of wave function collapse, which supports the electron density interpretation of an atomic orbital. When an incident photon of enough energy hits an electron orbital it can cause a wave function collapse all the way to point size and if that sounds a bit like the inverted Rydberg or Deep Dirac Layer - it is no coincidence. http://www.amazon.com/The-Road-Reality-Roger-Penrose/dp/0099440687/ref=sr_1_ 1?ie=UTF8qid=1351709058sr=8-1keywords=%22The+Road+to+Reality%22 Jones
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. So, who wins that prize? Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I followed for years: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/ Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the discussions. I found it absolutely fascinating.
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Any psychological/psychiatric/philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the mechanism that MS Windows controls. The analogy is apt and accurate. Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these philosophers/psychologists/psychiatrists/etc. They are at best severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading. If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the software soul. Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of human behavior. Jojo - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-)
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
Since there have been results of consciousness effecting quantum level events multiple times, why should it be so absurd. Based on research and experimentation I am doing it is clear to me that quantum waves aren't just probability waves but are real waves in an actual gas/fluid/superfluid aether. And while most Vorts would probably be unable to get their minds around this, it really does explain everything very neatly. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Giovanni Santostasi gsantost...@gmail.com wrote: Orch-OR is not the best theory of consciousness. So, who wins that prize? Well, while we await Giovanni's response, for those Vorts interested in the development of the concept, here is a list archive that I followed for years: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/quantum-mind/ Start at the bottom and just peruse the list and you will see famous and infamous physicists and philosophers who participated in the discussions. I found it absolutely fascinating.
Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
If I studied close enough the inside of a computer that has MS Windows installed on it, without ever switching it on, I can still see and understand the expected behaviour. The software program is persisted as ones and zeros on a memory device. On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Any psychological/psychiatric/**philosophical attempt to understand the soul is doom to failure from the onset. Let says you're a hardware/ASIC/Electronics/IC engineer who designed the Pentuim chip. Without understanding of the software, can you discern the operation of a PC from your understanding of the hardware/Chips/IC/CPU/GPU/etc? At best, you understanding would be severely incomplete and faulty. Software is the intangible thing that controls the behavior of the computer. Software controls the hardware. On the same token, experts in Psychology/Psychiatry/** Philosophy/Sociology/Humanism/**etc, can never hope to completely understand the Human Soul. It is that intangible entity - the soul, that controls the hardware consisting of your brain cells/neurons, etc. The Software soul is what needs to be understood for us to understand the behavior of man. You need to study the soul, not the brain. The brain is simply a mechanism that the soul controls much like the CPU chip is the mechanism that MS Windows controls. The analogy is apt and accurate. Hence, one is wasting their time trying to study all the ideas of these philosophers/psychologists/**psychiatrists/etc. They are at best severely incomplete, at worst gravely misleading. If you want to understand the spiritual soul, go to the one who wrote the software soul. Study his book - the Bible to have a better understanding of human behavior. Jojo - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Quantum Soul? I think Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff have the best explanation of consciousness to date. It's called Orchestrated Objective Reduction, or Orch-OR. The two actually developed the idea separately, Sir Penrose being a physicist and Hameroff being a physician who specialized in anesthesia and cancer research. Roger was seeking a model of the brain that did not require computation. Hameroff wanted to know how anesthesia worked and where the conscious went when under. Penrose theorizes that spacetime is granular at the size of the Planck length and that quantum superposition is linked to the curvature. Orchestrated Reduction is the collapse of the superposition. Hameroff brought in the neuron microtubles which provide the structure. He sees a synchronous oscillation in neural MT can influence other neurons. Together they see these electrons as a sea embedded in the geometry of spacetime. Needless to say, they have many critics. :-) -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!
[Vo]:The Quantum Soul?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/28/soul-after-death-hameroff-penrose_n_2034711.html How far fetched is this? According to Dr. Hameroff, in a near-death experience, when the heart stops beating, the blood stops flowing, and the microtubules lose their quantum state, the quantum information in the microtubules isn't destroyed. It's distributed to the universe at large, and if the patient is revived, the quantum information can go back to the microtubules. -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever!