Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
If being above the Debye temperature is one of the preconditions for excess heat, then Pd systems don't need an application of heat if they are done at room temperature (20C), since the Debye temperature of Pd is several degrees lower than room temperature. Harry On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Frank Roarty froarty...@comcast.netwrote: Harry Didn't Arrata have heat with PD powder at room temp? Maybe anomalous heat is a function of transition thru Debye temp and those experiments extracting heat provide repeated opportunities to make this transition at a higher rate. Fran
RE: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
Pd reactions possible at lower temps than Ni --yes, exactly. However the reduction of the energy of vacancy of formation is also a good thing. Cu in Ni, Au or Ag in Pd, Sn in Ti,. My understanding (as limited as it is) is that you need the phonon capability for the heat to leave the reaction areas and you need the vacancies to shuttle the H/D to and from where ever things are happening. (although I still think that there is a fair chance that the vacancies themselves may be the active site- that is vacancies with specific properties). D2 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:06:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd From: hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com If being above the Debye temperature is one of the preconditions for excess heat, then Pd systems don't need an application of heat if they are done at room temperature (20C), since the Debye temperature of Pd is several degrees lower than room temperature. Harry On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Frank Roarty froarty...@comcast.net wrote: HarryDidn't Arrata have heat with PD powder at room temp? Maybe anomalous heat is a function of transition thru Debye temp and those experiments extracting heat provide repeated opportunities to make this transition at a higher rate. Fran
RE: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
I think that the Debye temp is useful, although I am not sure if it is the acoustical or optical phonons that are actually involve. I have a better feel for the optical phonon moderating the reaction ( as seen from the duel laser stuff) than the acoustical phonon that seem to be more involved with setting the Debye temps. But I am still confused exactly over such phonon modes and the ultimate interactions needed for the reactions. My mental model more easily sees the optical phonons pushing D's together then it sees acoustical phonons doing that. The heat release via phonons (effected by the Debye temp) is just part of the problem. There is also the reaction itself which seems to like the higher temps. This seems to be an exponential term that involves the temperature and the energy of vacancy formation. You need higher temps or a lower Ef. Lowering the Ef even a little seems to really help. Notice in the codep exper. that the codep on Au plating works so much better than just directly on Cu. Au in Pd really drops the Ef. D2 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:06:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd From: hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com If being above the Debye temperature is one of the preconditions for excess heat, then Pd systems don't need an application of heat if they are done at room temperature (20C), since the Debye temperature of Pd is several degrees lower than room temperature. Harry On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Frank Roarty froarty...@comcast.net wrote: HarryDidn't Arrata have heat with PD powder at room temp? Maybe anomalous heat is a function of transition thru Debye temp and those experiments extracting heat provide repeated opportunities to make this transition at a higher rate. Fran
Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
Harry, -6C is 21.2 F...below freezing.. perhaps this is why Pd research has been so sluggish? Some small population of Arrata's Pd atoms get this cold and be responsible for life after death reports? I don't know if anyone has ever thought to cool the Pd under test. ... Fran From: H Veeder [mailto:hveeder...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 2:07 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd If being above the Debye temperature is one of the preconditions for excess heat, then Pd systems don't need an application of heat if they are done at room temperature (20C), since the Debye temperature of Pd is several degrees lower than room temperature. Harry On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Frank Roarty froarty...@comcast.netmailto:froarty...@comcast.net wrote: Harry Didn't Arrata have heat with PD powder at room temp? Maybe anomalous heat is a function of transition thru Debye temp and those experiments extracting heat provide repeated opportunities to make this transition at a higher rate. Fran
Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
This response mysteriously ended up going to Francis rather than vortex-l. -- Forwarded message -- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Secrets To: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com How many Pd+D electrolysis experiments have been conducted at -6C, the Debye temp of Pd+H loaded to 88%? On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: James, The narrow gradient is necessary but IMHO it is the passage thru this gradient that is asymetrical to the reaction and provides the opportunity for anomalous heat such that room temp examples like Arrata with Pd were very small because the transitions were very slow / slow cooling while heated Ni powder with heat sinking allows the transition to be repeated much more rapidly – harvesting the hot spots while actively removing the average heat at a rate to keep inside the narrow gradient.*** * Fran ** ** ** ** Exceeding? ** ** So its not critical to be _at_ a narrow temperature range? ** ** ** ** On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: ** ** We Also learned importance of exceeding Debye temp but regarding lack of dependence on isotopes I think this reflects just how marginal the resistive heating method is compared to using spark plugs. Rossi and Mills will likely adopt this method of stimulus if they haven’t already done so. ** ** Fran ** ** On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com wrote: Harry, -6C is 21.2 F…below freezing.. perhaps this is why Pd research has been so sluggish? Some small population of Arrata’s Pd atoms get this cold and be responsible for life after death reports? I don’t know if anyone has ever thought to cool the Pd under test. … Fran *From:* H Veeder [mailto:hveeder...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 2:07 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd ** ** If being above the Debye temperature is one of the preconditions for excess heat, then Pd systems don't need an application of heat if they are done at room temperature (20C), since the Debye temperature of Pd is several degrees lower than room temperature. Harry ** ** On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Frank Roarty froarty...@comcast.net wrote: Harry Didn't Arrata have heat with PD powder at room temp? Maybe anomalous heat is a function of transition thru Debye temp and those experiments extracting heat provide repeated opportunities to make this transition at a higher rate. Fran ** **
Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
In reply to DJ Cravens's message of Fri, 26 Jul 2013 13:41:48 -0600: Hi, [snip] My mental model more easily sees the optical phonons pushing D's together then it sees acoustical phonons doing that. For D this may be appropriate, but it goes nowhere toward explaining H + Ni, where the reaction should be hundreds of orders weaker, due to the hugely higher Coulomb barrier, but if anything, is stronger. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
In reply to James Bowery's message of Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:39:20 -0500: Hi, I think it's only important to be *above* the Debye temp. Perhaps even the further above the better. This response mysteriously ended up going to Francis rather than vortex-l. -- Forwarded message -- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com Date: Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Secrets To: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com How many Pd+D electrolysis experiments have been conducted at -6C, the Debye temp of Pd+H loaded to 88%? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Debye of Pd
Is it possible that the heat measured in these experiments was released in hot spots where the Debye temp was exceeded? That would seem like an obvious way to overcome the requirement where the main mass remains at an overall low temp. Dave -Original Message- From: Frank Roarty froarty...@comcast.net To: hveeder000 hveeder...@gmail.com Cc: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jul 25, 2013 7:49 am Subject: [Vo]:Debye of Pd Harry Didn't Arrata have heat with PD powder at room temp? Maybe anomalous heat is a function of transition thru Debye temp and those experiments extracting heat provide repeated opportunities to make this transition at a higher rate. Fran
