Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
OrionWorks wrote: Stating that Lutz Co. really haven't the slightest interest in the environmental cause is an expressed opinion as well, even if a lot of the facts given to back up that opinion are, to say the least, damning. . . . I wouldn't say they haven't the slightest interest. I think all modern people agree that pollution is a problem. But Lutz dismisses global warming, which -- assuming it is real -- is a far more serious problem than pollution. That is why I stated previously if Lutz Co. continue to do what he claims GM is planning on doing, I personally don't care what his personal opinions might be. Perhaps the real question we should be asking ourselves is: Will Lutz Co. keep their word in spite of what their true opinions might be. . . . Agreed. With that said, I suspect I'm in general agreement with many of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread. But that's just my opinion. ;-) This reminds me a little of a recent hysterical column by Kinsley: http://www.slate.com/id/2185134/ McCain and the Times: the Real Questions My apparent concern about the appearance of the possibility of the appearance of a possible affair. . . . I am not accusing the New York Times of screwing up again by publishing an insufficiently sourced article, then defending itself with a preposterous assertion that it wasn't trying to imply what it obviously was trying to imply. I am merely reporting that some people worry that other people might be concerned that the New York Times has created the appearance of screwing up once again. . . . - Jed
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Jed sez: ... This reminds me a little of a recent hysterical column by Kinsley: http://www.slate.com/id/2185134/ Funny! Ms. Iseman certainly has the appearance of sweet eye candy. Under the circumstances I think Mongo (from Blazing Saddles) had the right attitude. KISS, even if there might be some overhead involved in accepting candygrams. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Two problems: 1) Dealer automobile service centers are also independent profit centers. Electric cars need brake shoes and tires. . . that's about it. 2) The entire highway structure is maintained (financed) on state and federal gasoline taxes. No gas . . . no taxes. Recently, Georgia proposed maintaining highways with a sales tax. Interesting. Does Dr. Gina Abraham (head of Ga dept of transportation) foresee the future? Kick ass, Gina! Terry
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:53:36 -0500: Hi, [snip] Two problems: 1) Dealer automobile service centers are also independent profit centers. Electric cars need brake shoes ...in fact less of these too, because of regenerative braking. and tires. . . that's about it. 2) The entire highway structure is maintained (financed) on state and federal gasoline taxes. No gas . . . no taxes. ...no problem. Simply increase income tax to compensate. It won't make any difference to the people, they pay the same amount either way. Recently, Georgia proposed maintaining highways with a sales tax. Interesting. That would work too. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
A few tangential thoughts on the Lutz controversy. I would caution us all from arriving at too many stead-fast opinions as to the real motivations behind any individual without first questioning them face-to-face. We're all guilty of performing pop-psyche analysis on the motivations of others and, subsequently, performing extrapolations on that analysis as to how their underlying motivations are likely affecting the machinations of multi-million/billion dollar corporations for which they are in charge of running. I'm just as guilty as the rest for having performed these very transgressions. I don't know Lutz. I've never talked to him. I'm not in a position to analyze his motivations publicly. One of the few bits of wisdom I've seem to have acquired as I've gotten older is a realization that the vast majority personal opinions I've stuffed into my wet-wear are just that: personal opinions. I think I became slightly wiser one fateful day (a day that unfortunately only seems to have been recently) when I came to the astonishing revelation as to what do any of my personal opinions have anything to do with what's really going on in the world. All I really know is what's going on in my little world, and even then, I'm not so sure about that. But that's ok. Having personal opinions about this and that subject did not seem to make me any more of a productive intelligent human being. Possessing opinions inevitably caused me to consume huge amounts of personal resources and energy in the task of defending all those personal opinions I had acquired because sooner or later I would come up against some dumb jerk who didn't agree with my personal opinions, and then it was off to the races again. Granted, there are many of us who live for the thrill of the race, and the stadiums always seem to be full of spectators. But for me, all it seemed to do was make me more opinionated. OTOH, has anyone spoken to Mrs. Lutz recently? ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzoe.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
OrionWorks wrote: A few tangential thoughts on the Lutz controversy. I would caution us all from arriving at too many stead-fast opinions as to the real motivations behind any individual without first questioning them face-to-face. I don't need to question the man. I can read his blog. I assume he means what he says, and it seems clear to me that his beliefs explain why GM is in such a mess. The other managers there must agree with him, or they would fire him. Plus I have read a great deal about the industry, such as the book High and Mighty. Plus anyone can see that GM is not serious about hybrid cars. The Prius has been sold for 10 years, and it took 5 or 10 years to develop. GM is ~20 years behind, they have not sold a single hybrid car. Obviously they have no interest in them! No corporation that wants to develop a product sits on the sidelines doing nothing for 20 years. We're all guilty of performing pop-psyche analysis on the motivations of others and, subsequently, performing extrapolations on that analysis as to how their underlying motivations are likely affecting the machinations of multi-million/billion dollar corporations for which they are in charge of running. I do not think I engaged in pop-psyche analysis. Assertions that concept cars are mainly intended as public-relations stunts can be found in many books and articles about the auto industry. It is common knowledge. Anyone can see that GM is on the verge of extinction, and management is at fault. Look at their stock price, and the fact that they have offered a buy out to every single remaining employee. This is de facto liquidation. You can see from the statements in Lutz's blog and in the history described in High and Mighty how they got into this pickle. It is no mystery, and not an unusual occurrence. IBM almost self-destructed in the 1980s for reasons similar to GM: the managers did not know much about the computer business and had no idea what the customers wanted. This is described in many books, such as P. Carroll, Big Blues. Large, dysfunctional, overconfident institutions often destroy themselves. That is why only a handful of corporations are older than a century, and why political parties that remain in power too long become rife with corruption and incompetence. The reasons and dynamics of destruction are described in the book Parkinson's Law which is a 140-page gem. Along the same lines, it is no mystery how and why organizations such as the DoE, Nature and the APS got themselves out on a limb in opposition to cold fusion. Every step of the process is well documented. There is no chance they will change course as long as the people who made the original mistakes and jumped to the wrong conclusion remain in power. History has many examples of large armies being defeated by small ones, such as the American Revolution and the Vietnam war. These and other examples are described in the book March of Folly. It shows how big institutions tend to make drastic errors that are apparent to many people at the time, and yet they continue to make them until they self destruct. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Anyone can see that GM is on the verge of extinction, and management is at fault. Look at their stock price, and the fact that they have offered a buy out to every single remaining employee. This is de facto liquidation. GM and Detroit in general cannot build small fuel efficient cars at a profit. Toyota and others are smart enough to build assembly plants in conservative, white - and often Southern communities, away from urban problems and hire YOUNG MEN to work, so as to avoid health care and pension costs. Even Lee Iacocca groused about this situation. Competition has forced native automakers to offer buyouts to shed expensive workers. I can't blame unions for wanting benefits, nor management for trying to survive. We need a better health care and pension system to remove a huge competitive disadvantage. New ideas alone are a waste of time because such can be easily copied by foreign companies - and sadly, at less cost.
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Jed I learned some time ago that when I go to the races it's a good betting strategy to wager that your opinions will make a place. PS: Some interesting thoughts from Chris as well Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
OrionWorks wrote: I learned some time ago that when I go to the races it's a good betting strategy to wager that your opinions will make a place. These are not my opinions. That's why I cited all those books. These are facts, teh opinions of experts, and observations such as the fact that GM sells no hybrid cars, even though their arch-rival Toyota has sold a million of them. That is an extraordinary fact, nearly unprecedented in the annals of commerce. Historians often wonder how the early 19th century gap between industrialized England and the undeveloped U.S. came about. The two countries had the same language and traditions, but for a long time the U.S. lagged, and purchased technology from England. It seems puzzling. Yet that gap was not 20-years wide. Serious steam railroad construction began in the 1830s and 40s. (1829, Liverpool Manchester RR.) In 1830 there were no railroads in the U.S., but the boom was beginning. The first rails and locomotives were imported from Britain. U.S. manufacturers such as Rogers began building locomotives, and quickly surpassed the British. By August 1860 Rogers had shipped 946 locomotives, and competing firms had shipped hundreds more. The U.S. had more railroad track then the rest of the world combined. What has happened with GM today is analogous to an imaginary situation in which, by 1850, 20 years into the railroad revolution, the U.S. had imported thousands of locomotives and not manufactured a single one. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Historical facts concerning the birth pangs of our country's railroad system, and the comparisons alluded to in the current auto industrial situation are indeed interesting. These are facts worth knowing and pondering over since we may soon witness history repeating itself on a similar issue - regrettably. With that said, describing Mr. Lutz's at the beginning of this particular discussion thread as an individual who does not seem to know when he should have apologized for previous statements made, and then not shutting up is: an opinion. Stating that Lutz Co. really haven't the slightest interest in the environmental cause is an expressed opinion as well, even if a lot of the facts given to back up that opinion are, to say the least, damning. That is why I stated previously if Lutz Co. continue to do what he claims GM is planning on doing, I personally don't care what his personal opinions might be. Perhaps the real question we should be asking ourselves is: Will Lutz Co. keep their word in spite of what their true opinions might be. Or will they allow their real opinion of the situation to continue driving a stake into their coffins. The cited facts were far more interesting. thanks for sharing them Jed. I learn a lot from your historical knowledge. With that said, I suspect I'm in general agreement with many of the opinions that have been expressed in this thread. But that's just my opinion. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Mr. Lutz's comments about his quote, in which he digs the hole he is in even deeper: http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/02/talk_about_a_cr.html Some people do not understand when to apologize and shut up. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
Jed sez: Mr. Lutz's comments about his quote, in which he digs the hole he is in even deeper: http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/02/talk_about_a_cr.html Some people do not understand when to apologize and shut up. - Jed Mr. Lutz appears to say in his blog that GM is going full steam ahead in their work on environmental issues like E85, hybrids, hydrogen and fuel cells, the electrification of the car (the Chevrolet Volt), which hopefully will be out on showrooms in a couple of years. ...all because it's the ...right thing to do. If so, I wouldn't put much stock in his personal opinions, like global warming being a crock of kaka. Shoot! I personally believe all those conspiracy theories claiming the WTC had been crammed full of strategically positioned explosives just prior to the jets slamming into them is kaka too! But whada I know! Deeds are what count. Not opinions. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.Zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
OrionWorks wrote: Mr. Lutz appears to say in his blog that GM is going full steam ahead in their work on environmental issues like E85, hybrids, hydrogen and fuel cells, the electrification of the car (the Chevrolet Volt), which hopefully will be out on showrooms in a couple of years. ...all because it's the ...right thing to do. If so, I wouldn't put much stock in his personal opinions, like global warming being a crock of kaka. The problem is, that is a contradictory set of opinions, and his statements are unconvincing. If global warming is not real, then the only reason anyone would work on things like fuel cells and electric cars would be for the PR value. As far as I can tell that is in fact the only reason GM is spending any money on these things: it is all a public relations stunt, and they have no intention of manufacturing anything. Ten years after Toyota introduced the Prius, GM does not sell a single hybrid car as far as I know. They can't be serious. They are NOT going full steam ahead! That's absurd. The thing is, apart from global warming there is no perilous environmental threat from cars. The amount of pollution they cause in the first world is declining. Of course oil is running out, but this will happen gradually. If oil did not cause global warming and terrorism there would be no reason to transition away from it abruptly. It would make sense to make the transition gradual, over 30 to 50 years. We might as well use it up as long as it remains reasonably cheap. That is just what the oil companies and GM want us to do. They would only want us to do that if they themselves did not believe oil, coal and other fossil fuel is causing catastrophic and irreversible climate change. Lutz says he does not believe that and I take him at his word. That explains his decisions and actions. Let me explain what I mean by PR stunt. For many years, the U.S. automobile industry has been spending a few hundred million dollars a year to make ultraclean, advanced prototype concept cars for trade shows. Plus they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars of government money in joint-development projects that went nowhere. I have often read that industry insiders consider these projects to be PR stunts, and they have never seriously intended to manufacture these vehicles. The purpose is to keep the Congress and the public from criticizing industry, and to make themselves look good, without actually spending the billions of dollars it would take to manufacture one of these vehicles. My guess is that Lutz views Toyota's decision to make the Prius as an expensive public relations stunt that got out of hand. Even now many critics say that Toyota must be losing money on every Prius sale (a violation of antitrust laws), and Toyota is only selling the car to make themselves look good and to steal American market share. Prominent right-wing critics and industry shills such as George Will often say that Prius uses more gasoline per mile and more steel and other resources than a Hummer. (Will really says that in the New York Times, and I suppose he means it, because he appears to be innumerate and he understands nothing about batteries, manufacturing or technology.) People like Lutz apparently assume that Toyota managers don't believe in global warming either. They think the Prius must be some kind of ploy or a way to game the system. Managers at GM such a Lutz do not see the Prius as a better product or an honest way to attract customers. They do not seem to understand why consumers like it. That is my impression from their comments. That is why they are going out of business. What other explanation is there? It isn't as if they want to liquidate the company. Here is one thing you must understand about people such as Lutz, Will, and the anti-cold fusion fanatics such as Park: They really are as stupid as they seem. It is not an act. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:GM VP reveals his true feelings
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:00:47 -0500: Hi, [snip] OrionWorks wrote: Mr. Lutz appears to say in his blog that GM is going full steam ahead in their work on environmental issues like E85, hybrids, hydrogen and fuel cells, the electrification of the car (the Chevrolet Volt), which hopefully will be out on showrooms in a couple of years. ...all because it's the ...right thing to do. If so, I wouldn't put much stock in his personal opinions, like global warming being a crock of kaka. The problem is, that is a contradictory set of opinions, and his statements are unconvincing. If global warming is not real, then the only reason anyone would work on things like fuel cells and electric cars would be for the PR value. He also mentioned energy independence, which for many in the US is more important than global warming, particularly in GOP circles. As far as I can tell that is in fact the only reason GM is spending any money on these things: it is all a public relations stunt, and they have no intention of manufacturing anything. Ten years after Toyota introduced the Prius, GM does not sell a single hybrid car as far as I know. They can't be serious. They are NOT going full steam ahead! That's absurd. The thing is, apart from global warming there is no perilous environmental threat from cars. Air pollution, which I think we would all rather do without. The amount of pollution they cause in the first world is declining. But not by much. Of course oil is running out, but this will happen gradually. ...yes, but as it does so, the price of gas will rise rapidly, because while supply is decreasing, demand will increase, so that the difference between the two grows even faster. If oil did not cause global warming and terrorism there would be no reason to transition away from it abruptly. It would make sense to make the transition gradual, over 30 to 50 years. We might as well use it up as long as it remains reasonably cheap. That is just what the oil companies and GM want us to do. They would only want us to do that if they themselves did not believe oil, coal and other fossil fuel is causing catastrophic and irreversible climate change. They want us to do that because the oil still in the ground is worth far more than the oil already extracted (precisely because the price of a barrel is going up). They know that it's running out, and don't really care. They're making hay while the sun shines. Lutz says he does not believe that and I take him at his word. That explains his decisions and actions. I agree. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk The shrub is a plant.
