Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Alain Sepeda]

I've understood they mean: you can measure gamma as you wan't, no
limitation (unlike rossi's)

2012/1/25 OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson 

> From Alian:
>
> > note that for defkalion,
> > gamma measures is not a secret
> > http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5615#p5615
>
> I read the thread. The only commentary from DGT is:
>
>No, there is not any such limitation
>Thank you
>
>
> ??? Ooooh-Kay... What does that mean?
>
> Regards
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>

RE: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint]

Hi Steven...
Think the most likely explanation is that Rossi was trying to throw people off 
his trail; slow them down.  If the competition thinks that gammas are produced 
in copious numbers, they will be looking at the wrong theoretical 
explanations... he's leading the snakes down the wrong hole. 
-mark

-Original Message-
From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson [mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:56 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

Good comments from everyone.

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

>From Alian:

> note that for defkalion,
> gamma measures is not a secret
> http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5615#p5615

I read the thread. The only commentary from DGT is:

No, there is not any such limitation
Thank you


??? Ooooh-Kay... What does that mean?

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Alain Sepeda]

note that for defkalion,
gamma measures is not a secret
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5615#p5615

2012/1/25 OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson 

> What kind of radiation is emitted from Rossi's eCats remains a
> frustrating trade-secret.

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Nigel Dyer]

Unfortunately this model is nowhere near adequate to be able to 
calculate the levels of gamma we might see.  At this stage it is at best 
a qualitative model that might explain the general characteristics.  If 
the match looked sufficiently good to be worth looking at further then 
no doubt the model could be developed to be more quantitative.


I am of course standing on the shoulders of giants at this stage.   The 
idea can be found on page 173 of Preperata's "QED Coherence in Matter" 
where it is used to exlain "Miracle No 2" of LENR systems: namely that 
there is not as much gamma radiation as you might expect given classical 
Hot fusion theory.


On 25/01/2012 17:55, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote:

Once it is at a sufficient amplitide, it's existence
might stimulate the excited nuclei to emit their excess
energy after an LENR event has occurred into the mode
using the principle of a PHASER, rather than emit
it as gamma radiation (Like a LASER, but with phonons
not photons.  Both are bosons).  While the modes are
establishing themselves the excess energy still has a
significant probability of being emitted as gamma
radiation.

Once established, the excess energy has a route to
thermal energy within the nickel, not the lead, which
does not involve gamma.

Can you elaborate a little more as to what kind of gamma radiation
could be produced? Perhaps more to the point, how much potential gamma
radiation would we have to worry about (and subsequently have shield
ourselves from) before the excess energy has a direct route to thermal
energy?

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson]

Good comments from everyone.

>From Axel:

> In the context of the new high temperature NiH reactor
> designs, lead will melt at a lower temperature (327C)
> as compared to the temperature of the high temperature
> coolant (349C), therefore the theory of heat production
> in lead is untenable.

I agree. I already knew that lead has a much lower melting
temperature. That factor alone bothered me. Needless to say, my
"theory" needs to be tweaked. ;-)

>From Alain:

> from what I've read here, the gamma seems to appear
> when the reactor is not in normal mode...
> starting or stopping...
> maybe is it that the reaction change in unstable
> situation, and stops quickly, or evolve to heating
> only mode...

What kind of radiation is emitted from Rossi's eCats remains a
frustrating trade-secret. It's obvious that Rossi has been
deliberately deceptive on the matter. At present we don't really know
for sure whether Rossi's eCats emit harmful radiation, particularly in
the gamma range, or not. Rossi sez something to the effect that his
eCat's don't produce (much) harmful radiation, but then he uses lead
shielding, implying that some kind of harmful radiation must be
produced. However, insofar as the public record on the matter goes,
all attempts to record just the slightest hint of radiation appears to
have failed.

So, do the eCats really produce radiation, or is the pretense of
generated "radiation" just another cover story Rossi is using to muddy
the waters? Maybe the burst of gamma recorded back last January was
just a glitch in the recording device. We just don't know.

My "theory" is based on a premise that some kind of radiation (perhaps
even harmful radiation) is produced from the eCats, and that some kind
of protective external shielding (metal, and/or lead) of a thickness
is capable of capturing the radiation and transforming (stepping it
down) it into thermal heat.

At this juncture I'm long on a premise but extremely short on a
plausible theory that would explain such a mechanism. ;-)


>From Nigel:

> The 'fact' that the gamma only appears as a burst
> during startup is one peice of 'evidence' that I think
> suggests that the mechanism relies on a coherent state
> within the nickel, probably an optical vibrational mode
> within the lattice.

Interesting insight. The he premise is worth exploring.

> Once it is at a sufficient amplitide, it's existence
> might stimulate the excited nuclei to emit their excess
> energy after an LENR event has occurred into the mode
> using the principle of a PHASER, rather than emit
> it as gamma radiation (Like a LASER, but with phonons
> not photons.  Both are bosons).  While the modes are
> establishing themselves the excess energy still has a
> significant probability of being emitted as gamma
> radiation.
>
> Once established, the excess energy has a route to
> thermal energy within the nickel, not the lead, which
> does not involve gamma.

Can you elaborate a little more as to what kind of gamma radiation
could be produced? Perhaps more to the point, how much potential gamma
radiation would we have to worry about (and subsequently have shield
ourselves from) before the excess energy has a direct route to thermal
energy?

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Nigel Dyer]

The 'fact' that the gamma only appears as a burst during startup is one 
peice of 'evidence' that I think suggests that the mechanism relies on a 
coherent state within the nickel, probably an optical vibrational mode 
within the lattice.


Once it is at a sufficient amplitide, it's existence might stimulate the 
excited nuclei to emit their excess energy after an LENR event has 
occurred into the mode using the principle of a PHASER, rather than emit 
it as gamma radiation (Like a LASER, but with phonons not photons.  Both 
are bosons).  While the modes are establishing themselves the excess 
energy still has a significant probability of being emitted as gamma 
radiation.


Once established, the excess energy has a route to thermal energy within 
the nickel, not the lead, which does not involve gamma.


On 25/01/2012 16:23, Alain Sepeda wrote:

for defkalion réactors, knowing their testing measures, it is clear that no
noticeable gamma is produced,
and that (hopefuly) classic gamma are not the main production of energy.

it is not far from the same with rossi's reactor, when you see the
relatively thin lead protection...

from what I've read here, the gamma seems to appear when the reactor is not
in normal mode...
starting or stopping...
maybe is it that the reaction change in unstable situation, and stops
quickly, or evolve to heating only mode...

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Axil Axil]

In the context of the new high temperature NiH reactor designs, lead will
melt at a lower temperature (327C) as compared to the temperature of the
high temperature coolant (349C), therefore the theory of heat production in
lead is untenable.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 10:41 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson <
svj.orionwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Somewhere in a recent collection of Vort posts was a thread or two
> touching on speculation (evidence?) that the source of the massive
> amount of exothermic heat generated from Rossi's eCats is actually due
> to gamma radiation being emitted from the reactor core. It is the
> generated gamma radiation (which itself is not necessary "hot" in the
> thermal sense) that subsequently bombards the surrounding lead
> shielding, thus HEATING up the lead. It suggests the fact that the
> eCats themselves do not necessarily need to be anywhere near as hot
> (in the thermal sense) as the surrounding lead shielding eventually
> gets. This suggests it is the accumulated heat being generated within
> the LEAD shielding is what Rossi ends up exploiting in order to
> generate massive amounts of hot water and steam.
>
> This implies that the external heating elements Rossi applies as Input
> to the ecat, in effect, is used primarily to CONTROL the internal
> temperature of his reactor cores. It suggests Rossi's eCats need to be
> maintained within a narrow temperature range, which the external
> heating elements more-or-less supply. I would also speculate that the
> optimal internal temperature range of the eCat may not need to be
> anywhere near as hot (thermally speaking) as the thermal temperature
> being generated within the surrounding lead shielding.
>
> If Rossi were to turn off the external heating element, leaving only
> some of the generated thermal heat from the surrounding lead shielding
> to return back to the reactor cores, it is conceivable that attempting
> to maintain a precise reactor core temperature range may be much more
> difficult to control. To be honest, however, I'm not entirely sure I
> buy such speculation. For example, what's stopping thermal heat being
> generated from the lead shielding from entering the reactor cores
> WHILE the external heaters are turned on. What's the difference?
>
> OTOH, is it possible that accompanying temperature sensors are
> constantly monitoring the internal temperature of the reactor core. If
> so, perhaps Rossi's heating elements ARE smart enough to gauge the
> internal temperature. Maybe they are smart enough to adjust their
> power settings based on the amount of heat being returned back from
> surrounding lead shielding. If that is the case, if the external
> heating elements are deliberately turned off, Rossi would lose a
> critical control factor.
>
> Speculation, both pro and con, is invited.
>
> Regards
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com 
> www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>
>

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Alain Sepeda]

for defkalion réactors, knowing their testing measures, it is clear that no
noticeable gamma is produced,
and that (hopefuly) classic gamma are not the main production of energy.

it is not far from the same with rossi's reactor, when you see the
relatively thin lead protection...

from what I've read here, the gamma seems to appear when the reactor is not
in normal mode...
starting or stopping...
maybe is it that the reaction change in unstable situation, and stops
quickly, or evolve to heating only mode...



2012/1/25 OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson 

> Somewhere in a recent collection of Vort posts was a thread or two
> touching on speculation (evidence?) that the source of the massive
> amount of exothermic heat generated from Rossi's eCats is actually due
> to gamma radiation being emitted from the reactor core. It is the
> generated gamma radiation (which itself is not necessary "hot" in the
> thermal sense) that subsequently bombards the surrounding lead
> shielding, thus HEATING up the lead.

Re: [Vo]:LEAD shielding - a dual purpose?

[Energy Liberator]

On 25/01/12 15:41, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote:

Somewhere in a recent collection of Vort posts was a thread or two
touching on speculation (evidence?) that the source of the massive
amount of exothermic heat generated from Rossi's eCats is actually due
to gamma radiation being emitted from the reactor core. It is the
generated gamma radiation (which itself is not necessary "hot" in the
thermal sense) that subsequently bombards the surrounding lead
shielding, thus HEATING up the lead.
That came from Rossi's recent radio interview apparently. I only 
listened to the interview once and didn't pick up on that but Aussie Guy 
mentioned it in his summarized list of key points from that interview 
which he posted here. I questioned it at the time as it struck me by 
surprise as I expected all the heat to come solely from the actual 
reaction.