Re: [Vo]: Scam or no?
Paul, You deserve a break today. Somebody needs a nap. Think I'll take a little lunch snooze myself as well. Sweet dreams. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com > > Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no? > > > > Paul sez: > > > >> So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. > >> It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given > >> sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling > >> competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is > >> no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 > >> KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! > >> > >> Regards, > >> Paul Lowrance > > > > Ya gotta just love those spell checkers. > > > > I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > > You're a riot. Give me a break. I spent an entire 10 hours yesterday replying > to > emails. My eyes felt like they were generating 10 megawatts of nuclear > fission. > > > Paul Lowrance > > --- Steven Vincent Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://orionworks.com
Re: [Vo]: Scam or no?
Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no? > > Paul sez: > >> So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. >> It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given >> sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling >> competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is >> no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 >> KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! >> >> Regards, >> Paul Lowrance > > Ya gotta just love those spell checkers. > > I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson You're a riot. Give me a break. I spent an entire 10 hours yesterday replying to emails. My eyes felt like they were generating 10 megawatts of nuclear fission. Paul Lowrance
RE: [Vo]: Scam or no?
SUBJECT: RE: [Vo]: Scam or no? Paul sez: > So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. > It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given > sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling > competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is > no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 > KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! > > Regards, > Paul Lowrance Ya gotta just love those spell checkers. I never new "trackers" could pull so much wait. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com
Re: [Vo]: Scam or no?
Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Then you are up to 0.75 megawatt. > Of course, it gets hot, so you have to have a bloody good cooling > system. A time honored trick that helps a lot is to remove the > thermostat and let the coolant free-flow. Add an extra belt-driven or > electric powered coolant pump, an oversized radiator, and you're good to go. So essentially all the wasted energy ends up in the air. It's amazing how much energy flow air can handle given sufficient air circulation. In tracker pulling competition a single 3K HP (2.2 MegaWatts) engine is no biggie. I was just looking at a tracker with five 3 KHP motors. That's 15 thousands HP, or 11 MegaWatts! Regards, Paul Lowrance
Re: [Vo]: Scam or no?
- Original Message - From: "Jed Rothwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]: Scam or no? 5 gallons = 19 liters; 19 kg. The heat of vaporization of water is 540 cal/g, so they are claiming at least 42 MJ/min energy production. That is the least amount; actually there would be much more, if a substantial fraction of the water is converted to free H2 and O2. Let's say it is 84 MJ/min. That's equivalent to 2 kg of gasoline a minute, or 1.4 MW. The biggest racing car engines are about 200 kW. 1.4 MW is enough for large railroad locomotive or WWII era fighter aircraft. If you put that much energy into something the size of an automobile engine, it would melt. Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454ci big block, 490hp = 365,540 watts. People routinely put blowers and such on these motors, port and polish the heads, etc., 1khp is not unreasonable. Then you are up to 0.75 megawatt. Of course, it gets hot, so you have to have a bloody good cooling system. A time honored trick that helps a lot is to remove the thermostat and let the coolant free-flow. Add an extra belt-driven or electric powered coolant pump, an oversized radiator, and you're good to go. Gives off so much CO2 that polar bears spontaneously combust from the added warming. ;) Point is, 200kW is by no means the biggest engine used for racing or otherwise in automobiles. Is it the biggest you'll probably ever NEED? Probably, and then some. As far as the claims of the whatsit racing company, I have a hard time believing it. 5 gallons of water per minute? Even if you could do this, to burn that much hydrogen in an engine per minute would be insane. If the cylinder head is aluminum, like most these daysBad Juju. --Kyle, Vo's evil mechanic
Re: [Vo]: Scam or no?
Jones Beene wrote: ...more like 70 than 7. Let's say they were electrolyzing 5 gallons "per hour," instead of "per minute" - (this info has been passed around the web enough for typos to be repeated) that is still plenty of gas to power an ICE if much of it was short lived chemical intermediaries, or even some kind of stable capacitance - instead of steam. I suppose 5 gallons per hour would be right on the money for a race car. That would make sense. As you say, it is off by a factor of 70 -- or 60, as in 60 minutes. I was reluctant to post this at all . . . Heck, why? It is on topic. Thanks for sharing it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]: Scam or no?
Jed Rothwell wrote: I vote scam. The claim is preposterous, and the supposed output is off by a factor of 7 or more. ...more like 70 than 7. Let's say they were electrolyzing 5 gallons "per hour," instead of "per minute" - (this info has been passed around the web enough for typos to be repeated) that is still plenty of gas to power an ICE if much of it was short lived chemical intermediaries, or even some kind of stable capacitance - instead of steam. The transit time from reactor to cylinder is in milliseconds, so even if the capacitance is not stable for much longer - it could somehow be effective. Still there is no indication of anything in independent testing. I was reluctant to post this at all, as I read about it several weeks ago, when it was first put on eBay - and thought it definitely a scam then - but hey - a money back guarantee is something that an adventuresome person (modern-day Feynman) will surely risk - if only to prove them wrong. BTW - in looking deeper at the racing company - there have been complaints about their regular products to the racing market - which are unresolved. Which makes me even more sure that this is a scam... (but always hopeful of being proved wrong). Jones
Re: [Vo]: Scam or no?
Jones Beene wrote: They have an electroyzer driven by very high amps off of a beefed up alternator in an auto - they are claiming to be capable of electrolyzing 5 gallons of water per minute (impossible !) and then using only this (part steam part H2 and O2 or Brown's gas) 5 gallons = 19 liters; 19 kg. The heat of vaporization of water is 540 cal/g, so they are claiming at least 42 MJ/min energy production. That is the least amount; actually there would be much more, if a substantial fraction of the water is converted to free H2 and O2. Let's say it is 84 MJ/min. That's equivalent to 2 kg of gasoline a minute, or 1.4 MW. The biggest racing car engines are about 200 kW. 1.4 MW is enough for large railroad locomotive or WWII era fighter aircraft. If you put that much energy into something the size of an automobile engine, it would melt. I vote scam. The claim is preposterous, and the supposed output is off by a factor of 7 or more. - Jed
[Vo]: Scam or no?
A small auto racing company called "Zigouras" has gotten into the "ultra-efficient electrolysis" fray and claims to power an ICE on self-generated hydrogen [Brown's Gas] with zero gasoline. Money back guarantee! The inventor, Paul Zigouras summarized the main details on another forum: 1. The cell is 316L grade s/s plates [Brown's Gas type] spaced at only 0.025 inch apart (0.6 mm) 2. Water goes in one end and gas comes out the other 3. The current drive is via many FET transistors in parallel 4. The output waveform is a "perfect" square wave as that has all harmonics in it 5. The central frequency is about 40 kHz 6. There is a frequency modulation "wobble" of the signal +1 to -3 kHz around the base frequency. 7. The current draw at 13.8 volts is between 160 and 190 amps. 8. A cell of about 20 plates 3" x 10" is capable of generating 20,000 litres of gas per minute. 9. The voltage applied to the cell never falls below +1 volt. As one side of the cell is connected to +13.8 volts, that means that the other side of the cell never goes above +12.8 volts. In other words, the square wave switches between zero volts and +12.8 volts 40,000 times per second. 10. Paul Z. developed his circuit by modifying the circuit from Kevin at www.waterforfuel.com. However, it is likely that Paul's final circuit does not have very much in common with Kevin's circuit as Paul did a good deal of development and testing. The company is in Brockton, Mass. They sound like they are onto something which is seemingly scientifically impossible. http://www.zigourasracing.com/ I would not even have mentioned it - since the claim is preposterous on its surface (although others have been making the same claim since "Dad" Garrett in 1935, especially Stan Meyers)... except that Zigouras do seems to be a valid racing outfit - so they must know a thing or two about engines. Zigouras Racing is building and recently started selling (on eBay!) this water-fuel technology (BG electrolysis) unit which sounds too good to be true, and probably is hyped-up beyond a real ability to validate, but anyway is there any anomaly at all in what they are doing? They have an electroyzer driven by very high amps off of a beefed up alternator in an auto - they are claiming to be capable of electrolyzing 5 gallons of water per minute (impossible !) and then using only this (part steam part H2 and O2 or Brown's gas) to power a vehicle with no gasoline! Not the first time this claim has been made, of course. Stanley Meyer returns from the grave . Below is data from their eBay ad which appeared here (may be lapsed): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120086147205 "This is our first production ECM (electronic control module) for our standard water cell. This ECM is pictured on the right, and is rated at 150 amps output. This module comes completely calibrated to our 14-plate cell, and is plug-and-play -- no tuning required. If you are planning on running your car strictly on water, without the use of gasoline, this ECM will run the car just fine as long as your engine is around 2.5 L or so. Larger engines will have limited throttle response, and should use the larger ECM (pictured on the left) which is rated at up to 400 amps. This larger ECM will be auctioned off in a few days on ebay. The unit in this auction is capable of putting out over 150 amps (12VDC) at 35khz. This intelligent unit modifies the signal to allow for peak HHO gas output, while drawing minimal current. On smaller engines, you can generate up to 90 horsepower with our 14-plate cell, and over 150 horsepower with our 30-plate cell. The 30-plate cell requires the heavy duty version of this ECM, which only costs slightly more than the smaller version. This is version 1.0A of the ECM, which does not have any type of safeties built into it. Shorting the plates could cause damage to the electronics, so we recommend only using our cells for your projects. ECM has a 90 day warranty, if installed and used correctly. Warranty covers the ECM only -- labor and shipping is not included. If you are looking to run a V8 or other type of large engine, please call engineering at (508) 583-5133. We are currenty designing an ECM specifically for larger engines, even though doing so will consume a tremendous amount of water. Technical support is provided for the ECM at the number above, however, it should be pretty self-explanitory. There are only 2 wires in, and 2 wires out to the cell, so it is very easy to connect. Please note that using any other electrolysis cells other than ours will VOID your warranty. Buyer pays S&H. More later, Jones
