Re: Betteries
In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Tue, 16 May 2006 08:23:52 -0500: Hi, [snip] True, but in this case we are storing the best form of energy, electricity as opposed to a car engine. You might need cheaper electricity to make this gadget more than a marginal improvement over what we're stuck with now. It may not be an improvement AFA energy is concerned, but it would be quieter and produce no smog, both points in its favor. Furthermore, the electricity can be produced from renewable sources, and hence need not rely on fossil fuels, thus mitigating the greenhouse effect. 20% is also about the efficiency of an ICE, which is also a bit painful, but we use them anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
RE: Betteries
True, but in this case we are storing the best form of energy, electricity as opposed to a car engine. You might need cheaper electricity to make this gadget more than a marginal improvement over what we're stuck with now. 20% is also about the efficiency of an ICE, which is also a bit painful, but we use them anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
RE: Betteries
The thing to analyze is the efficiency. 20% for the Euro device is a bit painful. As I look into the archives, I see Chris Zell originally posted on this Al bettery some time ago. US patent 6,482,548 describes a similar technology with almost as great an energy density: ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Betteries
In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Mon, 15 May 2006 08:37:30 -0500: Hi, [snip] The thing to analyze is the efficiency. 20% for the Euro device is a bit painful. 20% is also about the efficiency of an ICE, which is also a bit painful, but we use them anyway. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Betteries
What is GRC??? On 5/13/06, Grimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 07:06 am 13/05/2006 +0100, you wrote:At 08:35 pm 12/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: -Original Message-From: John CovielloSounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anythingexcept a European a stock scam? http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544MmmInteresting.Proof enough for me.8-) Frank GrimerBut having read Richard's post and remembering my ownexperience with GRC I think that John is right to besuspicious. What do they say - if it seems too goodto be true, it probably is.;-) Time will tell.Frank
Re: Betteries
At 06:00 am 14/05/2006 -0400, John Herman wrote: What is GRC??? Glass fibre reinforced cement, generally referred to as GRC is a combination of alkali resistant drawn glass fibre (ARG) and a cement based matrix. http://www.abbeystoneproducts.co.uk/grc.htm FG
Re: Betteries
At 08:35 pm 12/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: -Original Message- From: John Coviello Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam? http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 MmmInteresting. Proof enough for me. 8-) Frank Grimer
Re: Betteries
At 09:21 pm 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn if a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed to learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. .If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real world. I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. Richard I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. 8-) Frank
Re: Betteries
At 07:06 am 13/05/2006 +0100, you wrote: At 08:35 pm 12/05/2006 -0400, you wrote: -Original Message- From: John Coviello Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam? http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 MmmInteresting. Proof enough for me. 8-) Frank Grimer But having read Richard's post and remembering my own experience with GRC I think that John is right to be suspicious. What do they say - if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. ;-) Time will tell. Frank
Re: Betteries
- Original Message - From: Grimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:15 AM Subject: Re: Betteries At 09:21 pm 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn if a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed to learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. .If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real world. I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. Richard I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. 8-) Frank Expert testimony can not be relied on. There are way too many examples of expert testimony being fraudulent due to monetary or other interests to rely on such proofs, unless the proof is overwhelming and verified in many quarters. Certainly one expert claiming a technology works as promised is not suitable verification. Seen any Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq lately? The experts told us they were there, and the nation went to war over it, but amazingly all those experts were dead wrong. I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. We'll see if anything comes of this.
Re: Betteries
Quite right John, we all know what expert testimony is worth. On your second point I disagree that because aluminum is cheap a nanotechnology device based on aluminum will be cheap. In many areas raw material cost is irrelevant, e.g. the sand from which expensive silicon computer chips are made is dirt cheap (literally ;) Michel - Original Message - From: John Coviello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Betteries - Original Message - From: Grimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 2:15 AM Subject: Re: Betteries At 09:21 pm 12/05/2006 -0500, you wrote: It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn if a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed to learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. .If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real world. I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. Richard I must admit - I'm more than a bit suspicious of consultants like Frost and Sullivan, too. Pilkington Brothers got no less than four sets of consultants to approve their launch of Glass-Reinforced Cement. I said PB were mad and that GRC would fail when the strain capacity ran out at 5 years. Somewhat to my surprise and enormous schadenfreude GRC failed right on time. 8-) Frank Expert testimony can not be relied on. There are way too many examples of expert testimony being fraudulent due to monetary or other interests to rely on such proofs, unless the proof is overwhelming and verified in many quarters. Certainly one expert claiming a technology works as promised is not suitable verification. Seen any Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq lately? The experts told us they were there, and the nation went to war over it, but amazingly all those experts were dead wrong. I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. We'll see if anything comes of this.
Re: Betteries
-Original Message- From: John Coviello I'll have to read up on this company and technology. The claims of capacity are so great, that a natural amount of skepticism is very warranted. If they can produce such an aluminum battery, I would assume that it would not be very expensive, since aluminum is rather cheap. We'll see if anything comes of this. As I look into the archives, I see Chris Zell originally posted on this Al bettery some time ago. US patent 6,482,548 describes a similar technology with almost as great an energy density: EXAMPLE V Yet another cell embodiment of the present invention was prepared, along with a comparative single-cation Li.sup.+ cell, comprising negative and separator members of the foregoing examples with a positive electrode member comprising a MoS.sub.x active material prepared by thermal decomposition of ammonium tetrathiomolybdate. The cells were activated respectively with 1.0 M Li(CF.sub.3 SO.sub.3) and 0.5 M Al(CF.sub.3 SO.sub.3).sub.3 electrolyte solutions in EC:DMC and tested through extended charge-discharge cycles at a rate of 7 ma/g. The plots of data obtained in these tests depict initial discharge capacity in FIG. 6 and long-term cycling characteristics of the cells in FIG. 7. The extraordinary increase in initial discharge capacity exhibited, at Al.sup.3+, by the cell of the present invention over that, at Li.sup.+, of the prior art cell is clearly evident in FIG. 6. The remarkable aspect of the performance of the present dual cation cell is seen in FIG. 7 where the Al.sup.3+ cell maintains after extensive cycling a 50% greater specific capacity calculated to be about 525 mAh/g. It is assigned to Telcordia Technologies in Morristown NJ. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Betteries
Here's the run down on Betteries and Europositron. This below index has all the relevant links. There is quite a lot on the Internet about this company and technology. The company was founded in 1989. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Europositron_Rechargeable_Aluminum_Batteries
Re: Betteries
20% efficient is fine if it gets 500 miles per charge. The problem with this battery claim is that it is so much better than current technology, about 2 to 4 times better, that you have to be suspicious of such a fantastic claim. I was also suspicious of the fact that they are openly selling stock on their website (red flag). I'll have to read up on this new battery claim. I reserve judgement. - Original Message - From: Zell, Chris To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:45 PM Subject: RE: Betteries Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam? Right on their front page they are asking people to buy shares. I would be very skeptical of fantastic claims like these, especially when they are clearly promoting stock sales. Having a 500 miles per charge aluminum battery would be great. But are these people playing straight? If it sounds too good to be true, then . I think the fine printon this battery tells you that it may be only 20+% efficient, unless they've improved it. Maybethe waste heat could go to agreenhouse or something.
Re: Betteries
In reply to Zell, Chris's message of Fri, 12 May 2006 15:45:53 -0500: Hi, [snip] I think the fine print on this battery tells you that it may be only 20+% efficient, unless they've improved it. Maybe the waste heat could go to a greenhouse or something. [snip] Where did you find the fine print? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
Re: Betteries
-Original Message- From: John Coviello Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam? http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Betteries
It's a bet, a gamble as is all stock. Somebody will put up 2 mil to learn if a prototype can be built. If it is built, some more mney will be needed to learn if it works. Then some more money will be needed to see it it will hold up in service, then more money needed to sell liscenses and finally more money needed to make money. Everything screams the idea is great. .If it is for real, the Koreans will be making a knockoff in China before the poor Finn get started. Thats the way business works in the real world. I have a rubber band motor that will be a winner.. Lets see... Frost and Sullivan may be the people to contact. They are hand holders for a fee. Richard - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Betteries -Original Message- From: John Coviello Sounds interesting. But is there any proof that this is anything except a European a stock scam? http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/press-release.pag?docid=34239544 ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
