Re: [Vo]:China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than the U.S.

[Lennart Thornros]

Jürg you are in the powerhouse of Europe. You are correct to some degree
but even Germany will need to change the mojo.

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 17:18 Jürg Wyttenbach  wrote:

> The first question I usually ask in a construction material store. It this
> made in China? The same for sanitary products or household machines that
> contain parts made in China.
>
> I want to avoid to buy rubbish!
>
> But in UK where the local industry is on the same level as China and you
> can only choose between UK-rubbish or China rubbish. Most things we need
> can be fabricated with robots today. The initial investment might be a bit
> larger than going to China but worst: All the net profit is under control
> again. Currently the China business is attractive because nobody can
> control any fake invoices inside China and fake export prices they charge
> the local distributor in our country. Net margins - in relation to
> customers price - usually are between 500 and 2000%.
>
> This has nothing to do with economic power its simply broad range fraud.
>
> 1987 Switzerland started the first fully automated assembly of the famous
> swatch. All parts are smaller than the I-phone parts and total cost when
> leaving the factory were 5.- Swiss francs/watch.
>
> Why is Apple going to China for theh I-phone assembly?? Albeit we can do
> everything they need since more than 30 years
>
> Answer is simple: They parked about 50'000'000'000$ undeclared (not taxed)
> net income, offshore. The whole China story is about cheating western
> democracies and paying hidden bonus to the top management and more tax-free
> benefits to investors. How top management fraud works can be learned from
> Gohsn that headed Nissan/Renault and at least has stolen 100'000'000$.
>
> J.W.
>
>
>
>
> Am 25.03.20 um 21:52 schrieb Lennart Thornros:
>
> Michael I think your analysis is correct. However that does not mean Jones
> is wrong rather support his position.
> I have advocated your position for a long time. However over the last 20
> years I have concluded ; the West cannot compete with countries that ha
> substantially lower production costs. That means we will have to
> acknowledge that the rest of the world has the right to build there
> standard to the same level as the West.
> We did have, but it slowly becomes less valuable, an infrastructure and
> organization capacity well above the rest of the world. Long time
> experience. My thinking has been to sell that capacity and have knowledge ,
> more worth than lime even, and contribute that knowledge. However we seems
> to not understand that 100 companies with 3 employees provide more job than
> a company with 100 employees. I think highly specialized small business can
> beat any competition. Instead we have supported big business and government
> organizations and built them as big and inefficient and ineffective as
> possible.
> Yes I understand that there are exceptions but they are few and far
> between. Look on the 2 trillion stimulus package we are spending most of it
> goes to big business because when they fail society don't want/ cannot take
> their fall.
> If we don't act our knowledge will not be competitive and I guess we will
> be behind.
> Lennart
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 16:02 Michael Foster  wrote:
>
>> I hate to be the one to tell you this, Jones, but China has been stronger
>> than the U.S. for some time. The massive manufacturing infrastructure
>> created in China is far greater than the U.S. has ever achieved. Factors
>> such as average income, GDP, etc. are just financial indicators.
>> Publications like MarketWatch, Bloomberg , etc. simply measure monetary
>> transactions. We have now a financialized economy, practically no economy.
>> We sell each other financial products, insurance stocks, consulting, etc.
>> and think we are doing something.
>>
>> I like to measure an economy in terms of lime production.  If you think
>> about it, lime is the basis of civilization.  The ancient Romans denuded
>> the forests of Europe and Britain in order to produce lime from limestone
>> and oyster shells, used to make mortar, glass, concrete, and iron.  The
>> ancient Egyptians had covered those massive pyramids with lime based stucco
>> so they were blinding white. You get the idea.
>>
>> I have no figures on lime production in China, but they produced more
>> concrete (you need lime for that) in the last three years than the U.S. did
>> in the entire 20th century. Their electrical generation surpassed the U.S.
>> years ago. Ditto steel production. They build entire cities for a million
>> people in three years flat, including high speed rail connecting to them.
>> Many of them are still unoccupied, referred to as ghost cities. No doubt
>> they will eventually be occupied.
>>
>> Meanwhile, in California, we try to build a single high speed rail line
>> connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco and it becomes bogged down in
>> bureaucracy, minority set-asides, corruption, over-regulation and 

RE: [Vo]:China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than the U.S.

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Jones---

Do you know if anyone seen covid19 data from Russia—has it been faked???

Bob


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jürg Wyttenbach
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:18 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than 
the U.S.

The first question I usually ask in a construction material store. It this made 
in China? The same for sanitary products or household machines that contain 
parts made in China.

I want to avoid to buy rubbish!

But in UK where the local industry is on the same level as China and you can 
only choose between UK-rubbish or China rubbish. Most things we need can be 
fabricated with robots today. The initial investment might be a bit larger than 
going to China but worst: All the net profit is under control again. Currently 
the China business is attractive because nobody can control any fake invoices 
inside China and fake export prices they charge the local distributor in our 
country. Net margins - in relation to customers price - usually are between 500 
and 2000%.

This has nothing to do with economic power its simply broad range fraud.

1987 Switzerland started the first fully automated assembly of the famous 
swatch. All parts are smaller than the I-phone parts and total cost when 
leaving the factory were 5.- Swiss francs/watch.

Why is Apple going to China for theh I-phone assembly?? Albeit we can do 
everything they need since more than 30 years

Answer is simple: They parked about 50'000'000'000$ undeclared (not taxed) net 
income, offshore. The whole China story is about cheating western democracies 
and paying hidden bonus to the top management and more tax-free benefits to 
investors. How top management fraud works can be learned from Gohsn that headed 
Nissan/Renault and at least has stolen 100'000'000$.

J.W.




Am 25.03.20 um 21:52 schrieb Lennart Thornros:
Michael I think your analysis is correct. However that does not mean Jones is 
wrong rather support his position.
I have advocated your position for a long time. However over the last 20 years 
I have concluded ; the West cannot compete with countries that ha substantially 
lower production costs. That means we will have to acknowledge that the rest of 
the world has the right to build there standard to the same level as the West.
We did have, but it slowly becomes less valuable, an infrastructure and 
organization capacity well above the rest of the world. Long time experience. 
My thinking has been to sell that capacity and have knowledge , more worth than 
lime even, and contribute that knowledge. However we seems to not understand 
that 100 companies with 3 employees provide more job than a company with 100 
employees. I think highly specialized small business can beat any competition. 
Instead we have supported big business and government organizations and built 
them as big and inefficient and ineffective as possible.
Yes I understand that there are exceptions but they are few and far between. 
Look on the 2 trillion stimulus package we are spending most of it goes to big 
business because when they fail society don't want/ cannot take their fall.
If we don't act our knowledge will not be competitive and I guess we will be 
behind.
Lennart

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 16:02 Michael Foster 
mailto:mf...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
I hate to be the one to tell you this, Jones, but China has been stronger than 
the U.S. for some time. The massive manufacturing infrastructure created in 
China is far greater than the U.S. has ever achieved. Factors such as average 
income, GDP, etc. are just financial indicators. Publications like MarketWatch, 
Bloomberg , etc. simply measure monetary transactions. We have now a 
financialized economy, practically no economy. We sell each other financial 
products, insurance stocks, consulting, etc. and think we are doing something.

I like to measure an economy in terms of lime production.  If you think about 
it, lime is the basis of civilization.  The ancient Romans denuded the forests 
of Europe and Britain in order to produce lime from limestone and oyster 
shells, used to make mortar, glass, concrete, and iron.  The ancient Egyptians 
had covered those massive pyramids with lime based stucco so they were blinding 
white. You get the idea.

I have no figures on lime production in China, but they produced more concrete 
(you need lime for that) in the last three years than the U.S. did in the 
entire 20th century. Their electrical generation surpassed the U.S. years ago. 
Ditto steel production. They build entire cities for a million people in three 
years flat, including high speed rail connecting to them. Many of them are 
still unoccupied, referred to as ghost cities. No doubt they will eventually be 
occupied.

Meanwhile, in California, we try to build a single high speed rail line 
connecting Los Angeles and San 

Re: [Vo]:China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than the U.S.

[Jürg Wyttenbach]

The first question I usually ask in a construction material store. It 
this made in China? The same for sanitary products or household machines 
that contain parts made in China.


I want to avoid to buy rubbish!

But in UK where the local industry is on the same level as China and you 
can only choose between UK-rubbish or China rubbish. Most things we need 
can be fabricated with robots today. The initial investment might be a 
bit larger than going to China but worst: All the net profit is under 
control again. Currently the China business is attractive because nobody 
can control any fake invoices inside China and fake export prices they 
charge the local distributor in our country. Net margins - in relation 
to customers price - usually are between 500 and 2000%.


This has nothing to do with economic power its simply broad range fraud.

1987 Switzerland started the first fully automated assembly of the 
famous swatch. All parts are smaller than the I-phone parts and total 
cost when leaving the factory were 5.- Swiss francs/watch.


Why is Apple going to China for theh I-phone assembly?? Albeit we can do 
everything they need since more than 30 years


Answer is simple: They parked about 50'000'000'000$ undeclared (not 
taxed) net income, offshore. The whole China story is about cheating 
western democracies and paying hidden bonus to the top management and 
more tax-free benefits to investors. How top management fraud works can 
be learned from Gohsn that headed Nissan/Renault and at least has stolen 
100'000'000$.


J.W.




Am 25.03.20 um 21:52 schrieb Lennart Thornros:
Michael I think your analysis is correct. However that does not mean 
Jones is wrong rather support his position.
I have advocated your position for a long time. However over the last 
20 years I have concluded ; the West cannot compete with countries 
that ha substantially lower production costs. That means we will have 
to acknowledge that the rest of the world has the right to build there 
standard to the same level as the West.
We did have, but it slowly becomes less valuable, an infrastructure 
and organization capacity well above the rest of the world. Long time 
experience. My thinking has been to sell that capacity and have 
knowledge , more worth than lime even, and contribute that knowledge. 
However we seems to not understand that 100 companies with 3 employees 
provide more job than a company with 100 employees. I think highly 
specialized small business can beat any competition. Instead we have 
supported big business and government organizations and built them as 
big and inefficient and ineffective as possible.
Yes I understand that there are exceptions but they are few and far 
between. Look on the 2 trillion stimulus package we are spending most 
of it goes to big business because when they fail society don't want/ 
cannot take their fall.
If we don't act our knowledge will not be competitive and I guess we 
will be behind.

Lennart

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 16:02 Michael Foster > wrote:


I hate to be the one to tell you this, Jones, but China has been
stronger than the U.S. for some time. The massive manufacturing
infrastructure created in China is far greater than the U.S. has
ever achieved. Factors such as average income, GDP, etc. are just
financial indicators. Publications like MarketWatch, Bloomberg ,
etc. simply measure monetary transactions. We have now a
financialized economy, practically no economy. We sell each other
financial products, insurance stocks, consulting, etc. and think
we are doing something.

I like to measure an economy in terms of lime production.  If you
think about it, lime is the basis of civilization.  The ancient
Romans denuded the forests of Europe and Britain in order to
produce lime from limestone and oyster shells, used to make
mortar, glass, concrete, and iron.  The ancient Egyptians had
covered those massive pyramids with lime based stucco so they were
blinding white. You get the idea.

I have no figures on lime production in China, but they produced
more concrete (you need lime for that) in the last three years
than the U.S. did in the entire 20th century. Their electrical
generation surpassed the U.S. years ago. Ditto steel production.
They build entire cities for a million people in three years flat,
including high speed rail connecting to them. Many of them are
still unoccupied, referred to as ghost cities. No doubt they will
eventually be occupied.

Meanwhile, in California, we try to build a single high speed rail
line connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco and it becomes
bogged down in bureaucracy, minority set-asides, corruption,
over-regulation and political correctness with the result that
billions are wasted and nothing will be built. If the U.S. doesn't
regain its position as a manufacturing powerhouse and the

Re: [Vo]:China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than the U.S.

[Lennart Thornros]

Michael I think your analysis is correct. However that does not mean Jones
is wrong rather support his position.
I have advocated your position for a long time. However over the last 20
years I have concluded ; the West cannot compete with countries that ha
substantially lower production costs. That means we will have to
acknowledge that the rest of the world has the right to build there
standard to the same level as the West.
We did have, but it slowly becomes less valuable, an infrastructure and
organization capacity well above the rest of the world. Long time
experience. My thinking has been to sell that capacity and have knowledge ,
more worth than lime even, and contribute that knowledge. However we seems
to not understand that 100 companies with 3 employees provide more job than
a company with 100 employees. I think highly specialized small business can
beat any competition. Instead we have supported big business and government
organizations and built them as big and inefficient and ineffective as
possible.
Yes I understand that there are exceptions but they are few and far
between. Look on the 2 trillion stimulus package we are spending most of it
goes to big business because when they fail society don't want/ cannot take
their fall.
If we don't act our knowledge will not be competitive and I guess we will
be behind.
Lennart

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 16:02 Michael Foster  wrote:

> I hate to be the one to tell you this, Jones, but China has been stronger
> than the U.S. for some time. The massive manufacturing infrastructure
> created in China is far greater than the U.S. has ever achieved. Factors
> such as average income, GDP, etc. are just financial indicators.
> Publications like MarketWatch, Bloomberg , etc. simply measure monetary
> transactions. We have now a financialized economy, practically no economy.
> We sell each other financial products, insurance stocks, consulting, etc.
> and think we are doing something.
>
> I like to measure an economy in terms of lime production.  If you think
> about it, lime is the basis of civilization.  The ancient Romans denuded
> the forests of Europe and Britain in order to produce lime from limestone
> and oyster shells, used to make mortar, glass, concrete, and iron.  The
> ancient Egyptians had covered those massive pyramids with lime based stucco
> so they were blinding white. You get the idea.
>
> I have no figures on lime production in China, but they produced more
> concrete (you need lime for that) in the last three years than the U.S. did
> in the entire 20th century. Their electrical generation surpassed the U.S.
> years ago. Ditto steel production. They build entire cities for a million
> people in three years flat, including high speed rail connecting to them.
> Many of them are still unoccupied, referred to as ghost cities. No doubt
> they will eventually be occupied.
>
> Meanwhile, in California, we try to build a single high speed rail line
> connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco and it becomes bogged down in
> bureaucracy, minority set-asides, corruption, over-regulation and political
> correctness with the result that billions are wasted and nothing will be
> built. If the U.S. doesn't regain its position as a manufacturing
> powerhouse and the parliament of whores we call our government doesn't stop
> selling us out to China we are finished.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Wednesday, March 25, 2020, 06:03:44 PM UTC, Jones Beene <
> jone...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than the U.S.,
> experts warn...This is the headline from the MarketWatch newsletter... They
> make a good case for the shocking prediction, whether you like it or not.
>
> China is going back to work now - as of TODAY even Hunan is off of the
> "stay at home" rule. They will be back to work so as to have more than a
> three month headstart on the USA (most likely). This can make a huge
> difference.
>
> Hmm... was such a scenario as this is turning out to be -- predictable?
> Perhaps predictable by an AI?
>
> If so - let's say that a country which wished to overtake the US as the
> leader of the World economy - had developed an AI which foretold this
> scenario and how to pull it off. Lets say the simulation was rock-solid and
> always came back with the same result. This creates an opportunity.
>
> With a population of 1.5 billion, would it not make good economic sense,
> never mind the humanity, to engineer a virus and start it at home... but it
> is engineered to have the traits which would favor a desired end-game ?
>
> The sacrifice to do this was less than 5000 souls, which is almost
> insignificant in the Big Picture. we have been killing off that many every
> month for some time with opiods. Thank you very much Big Pharma.
>
> Even if this economic good fortune was not planned out and did not happen,
> and there is zero proof that it did happen, the lesson here to remember is
> that it could happen. And not just in 

Re: [Vo]:China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than the U.S.

[Michael Foster]

I hate to be the one to tell you this, Jones, but China has been stronger than 
the U.S. for some time. The massive manufacturing infrastructure created in 
China is far greater than the U.S. has ever achieved. Factors such as average 
income, GDP, etc. are just financial indicators. Publications like MarketWatch, 
Bloomberg , etc. simply measure monetary transactions. We have now a 
financialized economy, practically no economy. We sell each other financial 
products, insurance stocks, consulting, etc. and think we are doing something.

I like to measure an economy in terms of lime production.  If you think about 
it, lime is the basis of civilization.  The ancient Romans denuded the forests 
of Europe and Britain in order to produce lime from limestone and oyster 
shells, used to make mortar, glass, concrete, and iron.  The ancient Egyptians 
had covered those massive pyramids with lime based stucco so they were blinding 
white. You get the idea. 

I have no figures on lime production in China, but they produced more concrete 
(you need lime for that) in the last three years than the U.S. did in the 
entire 20th century. Their electrical generation surpassed the U.S. years ago. 
Ditto steel production. They build entire cities for a million people in three 
years flat, including high speed rail connecting to them. Many of them are 
still unoccupied, referred to as ghost cities. No doubt they will eventually be 
occupied.

Meanwhile, in California, we try to build a single high speed rail line 
connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco and it becomes bogged down in 
bureaucracy, minority set-asides, corruption, over-regulation and political 
correctness with the result that billions are wasted and nothing will be built. 
If the U.S. doesn't regain its position as a manufacturing powerhouse and the 
parliament of whores we call our government doesn't stop selling us out to 
China we are finished.








 On Wednesday, March 25, 2020, 06:03:44 PM UTC, Jones Beene 
 wrote:





 China will emerge from the coronavirus crisis stronger than the U.S., experts 
warn...This is the headline from the MarketWatch newsletter... They make a good 
case for the shocking prediction, whether you like it or not.

China is going back to work now - as of TODAY even Hunan is off of the "stay at 
home" rule. They will be back to work so as to have more than a three month 
headstart on the USA (most likely). This can make a huge difference.

Hmm... was such a scenario as this is turning out to be -- predictable? Perhaps 
predictable by an AI?

If so - let's say that a country which wished to overtake the US as the leader 
of the World economy - had developed an AI which foretold this scenario and how 
to pull it off. Lets say the simulation was rock-solid and always came back 
with the same result. This creates an opportunity.

With a population of 1.5 billion, would it not make good economic sense, never 
mind the humanity, to engineer a virus and start it at home... but it is 
engineered to have the traits which would favor a desired end-game ?

The sacrifice to do this was less than 5000 souls, which is almost 
insignificant in the Big Picture. we have been killing off that many every 
month for some time with opiods. Thank you very much Big Pharma.

Even if this economic good fortune was not planned out and did not happen, and 
there is zero proof that it did happen, the lesson here to remember is that it 
could happen. And not just in Sci-Fi.

Maybe it could happen next year and/or ... maybe it is Putin who is actually 
pulling the strings... and not the Chinese..

Jones