Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-06 Thread Kevin O'Malley
Jed: I'm starting to run into folks who think it's crazy to assert that the USPTO won't issue cold fusion patents. Is there a good LENR patent office survey paper you would recommend? On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com

RE: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-06 Thread Jones Beene
It is doubtful that there can be a useful USPTO survey on this topic, since no competent attorney these days would use the phrase cold fusion in a disclosure. A case in point is Ahern's application. The title is: Amplification of Energetic Reactions in Metal Nanoparticles. It does not mention

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Axil Axil
There is no violations here. Experimentation defines the principles that the theories as based on. On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: The problem with such theories it is that they violate their own principles. 2013/6/3 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
Then let's get back to your original statement: That's not good. It violates the 2nd law of thermo. How is that not good? That's like watching a rock hovering in the sky saying, that violates the law of gravity. There's nothing good nor bad about it. It's simply an experimental result. On

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Daniel Rocha
I wish Abd was here. Would you like to carry this conversation to his nVo? 2013/6/3 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com Then let's get back to your original statement: That's not good. It violates the 2nd law of thermo. How is that not good? That's like watching a rock hovering in the sky

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
No thanks. Why don't you just answer the question? It is pretty straightforward. On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 4:25 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: I wish Abd was here. Would you like to carry this conversation to his nVo? 2013/6/3 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com Then let's

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Daniel Rocha
You don't need new physics to explain cold fusion. Nor violate any statistical physics. You just need to look for ignored solution in the literature. 2013/6/3 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com No thanks. Why don't you just answer the question? It is pretty straightforward. On Mon, Jun

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
I think I understand now. In your viewpoint, an actual experimental result which challenges that stance would be something you'd call not good. On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: You don't need new physics to explain cold fusion. Nor violate any

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Edmund Storms
I suggest you all read Quantum Weirdness? It's all in your mind In Scientific American, June 2013, page 47. According to the author, QM has been made complex and increasingly out of contact with reality. The success in fitting behavior has been used to justify increasingly complex

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Daniel Rocha
No, for me an actual explanation that challenges that stance I'd call 'not good'. 2013/6/3 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com In your viewpoint, an actual experimental result which challenges that stance would be something you'd call not good. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Jed Rothwell
O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com wrote: ***Then as long as those theories can explain this experimental result, everything is in good shape. Why would you say That's not good? This is an experimental finding, not a theory. It is not good because the laws of thermodynamics are probably right

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
But upthread you have already called this actual experimental result not good. On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 7:13 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: No, for me an actual explanation that challenges that stance I'd call 'not good'. 2013/6/3 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com In your

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com wrote: ***Then as long as those theories can explain this experimental result, everything is in good shape. Why would you say That's not good? This is an experimental finding, not a

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Axil Axil
I was going to write this post, but you beat me to it. Your post is more elegant and persuasive than mine would have been. This common flaw in the reason and logic that most people use, this 2nd law of thermodynamics hangup, is going to make the experimental revelation showing BEC activity in

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Axil Axil
From the get go, when you come to think in more simple terms, isn’t seeing a glowing pipe pumping out six time more energy than is going in a de facto violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics? On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: I was going to write this

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Edmund Storms
Axil, you show that you have no understanding of the second law. The laws of thermodynamics simply define how energy must flow in a system and how the system must behave as a result of the energy. The laws do not address the source. In the case of Rossi, he has an obvious source that

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Axil Axil
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.4827v1.pdf *Two coupled Jaynes-Cummings cells* ** We develop a theoretical framework to evaluate the energy spectrum, stationary states, and dielectric susceptibility of two Jaynes-Cummings systems coupled together by the overlap of their respective longitudinal field

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Edmund Storms
Axil, I have no idea what your comment means in the context of the subject we are discussing here. Please explain. Ed Storms On Jun 3, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Axil Axil wrote: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.4827v1.pdf Two coupled Jaynes-Cummings cells We develop a theoretical framework to evaluate

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Axil Axil
The atoms in a Bose-Einstein condensate follow the Jaynes-Cummings model. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaynes%E2%80%93Cummings_model Jaynes–Cummings model More to the point, when a Ni/H system get going after state up, the systems becomes totally entangled. This type of system is described

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Axil Axil
I found a great paper that might lay all this stuff out. I have not read it yet but it looks real good after doing a quick scan. http://users.physik.fu-berlin.de/~pelster/Theses/nietner.pdf Quantum Phase Transition of Light in the Jaynes-Cummings Lattice On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 2:13 PM,

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Jed Rothwell
Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com wrote: It is not good because the laws of thermodynamics are probably right and therefore this experimental result is probably wrong. ***Sounds a lot like the entire field of LENR. Cold fusion does not challenge the laws of thermodynamics; it challenges

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Cold fusion does not challenge the laws of thermodynamics; ***Yup. A lot of people have the IMPRESsion that it challenges the 2nd law, but that isn't the case at all. In fact here, this accusation that BECs absorb

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Jed Rothwell
Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com wrote: How many replications does it take for a rational scientist to accept the finding? It used to be just 2 or 3, but in this field it seems to be hundreds or thousands. I think for most claims it used to be five or 10 good replications. It depends on

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Axil Axil
You do not yet appreciate this yet, but a knew field of science that is interested in the theory of quantum computers, atomic imaging, and invisibility clocks are developing the theory that also covers LENR. In this way, every day a half dozen papers are written advancing LENR theory. This

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: . The world has not grown more irrational. ***I have no proof, but on this point I simply beg to differ. We only need a small number of supporters to win this fight. The thing is, we need people who have lots of

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: The first tier of people to replicate were the crème de la crème of electrochemistry. I mean people who now have laboratories named after them such as Ernest Yeager, and people who should have laboratories named after

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Jed Rothwell
Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com wrote: ***That reminds me. One thing I keep running into is how many articles and replications have been published in peer-reviewed journals? And skeptics do not consider the Journal of Nuclear Physics to be a real peer reviewed journal. Does

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Kevin O'Malley
Cool. Thanks. On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com wrote: ***That reminds me. One thing I keep running into is how many articles and replications have been published in peer-reviewed journals? And skeptics do not

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-03 Thread Harry Veeder
Metrologically speaking, it doesn't matter if an entity creates excess heat by violating the laws of thermodynamics. What matters is that our instruments work according to the laws of thermodynamics. As long as they do, we can determine with confidence how much excess heat the entity creates.

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread ChemE Stewart
Axil, I agree, this is my take on LENR at higher GeV range in our Brane World... http://sdsimonson.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dbrane-316079-image06.jpg Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Sunday, June 2, 2013, Axil Axil wrote: LENR could be a gateway into the theory of everything. The central

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Kevin O'Malley
If LENR is the result of BECs like Y E Kim's theory predicts, then we will have a relatively straightforward way to set up and capitalise on this fifth state of matter. The other 4 states are Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasma. To expect an atom to behave in the same fashion while in one state as it

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Daniel Rocha
I never understood how Kim's BEC get rid of the gammas. 2013/6/2 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com If LENR is the result of BECs like Y E Kim's theory predicts, then we will have a relatively straightforward way to set up and capitalise on this fifth state of matter. The other 4 states are

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Kevin O'Malley
This paper verifies that a photon eradiated Bose-Einsteincondensate will cut the frequency of incoming photons by dividing that frequency between N numbers of atoms. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1203.1261v1.pdf On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: I never

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Daniel Rocha
That's not good. It violates the 2nd law of thermo. 2013/6/2 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com This paper verifies that a photon eradiated Bose-Einsteincondensate will cut the frequency of incoming photons by dividing that frequency between N numbers of atoms.

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Kevin O'Malley
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: That's not good. It violates the 2nd law of thermo. ***It is an experimental finding. Like Feynman says, experiment trumps theory.

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Daniel Rocha
There are theories that avoid the violation of the 2nd law. 2013/6/3 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: That's not good. It violates the 2nd law of thermo. ***It is an experimental finding. Like Feynman says,

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Kevin O'Malley
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 9:00 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: There are theories that avoid the violation of the 2nd law. ***Then as long as those theories can explain this experimental result, everything is in good shape. Why would you say That's not good? This is an

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Daniel Rocha
I don't understand what you mean... 2013/6/3 Kevin O'Malley kevmol...@gmail.com On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 9:00 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: There are theories that avoid the violation of the 2nd law. ***Then as long as those theories can explain this experimental result,

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Axil Axil
Dear Daniel The laws of our classical reality are but and illusion that fails us when we try to understanding the quantum world around us. This Quantum mechanical paradox is the biggest problem that LENR faces. It is just too weird. On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 1:30 AM, Daniel Rocha

Re: [Vo]:LENR a gateway into the theory of everything.

2013-06-02 Thread Daniel Rocha
The problem with such theories it is that they violate their own principles. 2013/6/3 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com Dear Daniel The laws of our classical reality are but and illusion that fails us when we try to understanding the quantum world around us. This Quantum mechanical paradox is