RE: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-17 Thread OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
Rich,

 

I enjoyed reading about your personal experiences, particularly the mistakes
 hardships you encountered and your honorable endeavors to rectify them. It
gave me some insight into you. Thank you for sharing them. BTW, ten years
ago I lost five grand playing the commodities market. Fortunately, it was
only my own retirement account that suffered the consequences. I consider
the experience a valuable lesson learned... a unique kind of tuition, you
might say.

 

Just so you know, I never got a degree in psychology. FWIW, it's been my
experience that acquiring a degree in psychology is no guarantee that one
will acquire a better understanding of the eccentricities of human nature. I
would instead suggest making a few stupid (and occasionally unavoidable)
mistakes throughout one's life. Following such folly, willingly or
unwillingly, appears to have been the most valuable degree I've had to
take.

 

As you may recall I took issue to the following statement you made:

 

 ...-- I suspect Jed is likely to agree within a few days.

 

You seem to be inferring that either Rossi and/or Mr. Rothwell are
sibling[s] in need of ...mild accepting, nonpushy outlines... all this
in order to ...highlight a possible breakthrough... presumably in
reference to their evolving opinions. I cannot speak for Mr. Rothwell and
certainly not for Rossi, but I suspect that both of them could care less
about any advice and/or opinions you might want to dispense presumably for
their benefit, especially dispensed within the medium of a public forum. Why
would anyone care to accept advice dispensed in such a manner.

 

My previous plea was to suggest that we are in mutual service to one
another when we endeavor to express as clearly as we can the lessons we
learned from our life and the subsequent opinions that evolved from those
lessons. You did just that such as when you posted some of the financial
mistakes you made back in 1988 trying to be a successful day trader. Thank
you for sharing that. I feel your pain! Doing so is in mutual service to
others as it gives them the freedom to choose to learn whatever insight 
wisdom they can glean from the hard lessons you learned.

 

But leave it at that. The other side of the coin to my plea was to strongly
suggest that we leave predictions pertaining to the personal evolution of
another person's personal opinion. the evolution of their personal insights,
in their own capable hands. It is of no mutual service to have the
evolution of someone else's personal opinion and insights predicted by
strangers, especially in a public forum. 

 

It's just plain annoying.

 

I hope I have at least been able to express what it was about your previous
post that riled me so.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread Horace Heffner


On Sep 15, 2011, at 7:24 PM, Rich Murray wrote:


Horace, thanks for

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_diffusivity

It's useful to know that water has one of the lowest values -- so if
some of the water flow is stopped in some parts of the Fat Ecat, for
instance by being in some side chamber, bypassed by the main flow,
then it would be slow to come to an equilibrium heat flow, so, for
instance, doubling of the heat input from the electric heater resistor
would send a clear-cut heat pulse slowly across the thickness of the
immobile water,


I don't think this is totally correct.  It might apply to a gel, or  
ice, but not liquid water.  Convection is always present and  
significant in effect even at low temperature differentials and  
temperatures.  Liquid water transfers heat mainly by convection.   
Convection is effective even at low temperatures and very low water  
velocities.  I wrote a post on a related issue, the Mpemba Effect, in  
2001:


http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Mpemba.pdf

OTOH, it also may be of interest that imposing heat pulses into  
laminar flows has been used to measure flow velocities at various  
cross section points of the flow - and this works largely because the  
short induced heat pulse diffuses at a slow rate.




if it doesn't reach boiling temperature, which would
increase turbulent convective heat transfer -- such a heat pulse could
reach the thermister a certain time after the electric power cutoff --
the main point being: we can't assume much about this stunningly
complex system when we have no details about the design or
synchronized measures at many locations at once for hours of stable
operation.


Amen to that.




You present calm, clear, extremely reasonable points to justify
qualified skepticism -- I suspect Jed is likely to agree within a few
days.

within mutual service,  Rich



I would not be surprised that most people here, including Jed, feel  
there are various points which justify skepticism.  The problem seems  
to be agreeing on which ones and what a proper course would be.  Not  
that I expect anyone would take any action based on comments from the  
peanut gallery.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/






RE: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
From Mr. Murray

 You [Horace] present calm, clear, extremely reasonable points to justify
 qualified skepticism -- I suspect Jed is likely to agree within a few
 days.

Horace often presents interesting points worth considering.

However, for you to follow-up with your own prediction that Mr. Rothwell
will soon capitulate to the other side is, to put it bluntly, naive of you.
There is little mutual service in making predictions of the opinions of
others on these matters. You strike me as being oblivious to the fact that
what you are doing is a form of psychological manipulation, even though I
suspect that from Jed's POV, he could care less what your opinion of his
predicted opinions might be.

Let me put it to you this way: Is it really any of your business, predicting
the opinions of others? It's rude and offensive conjecture on your part. It
serves no purpose other than to give yourself another shot-in-the-arm. It's
nothing more than manufacturing a form of psychological self-assurance that
your own opinion must be right, because you now predict that others will
soon come around to the same opinion of yours as well.

Really???

Who knows what opinions Jed may feel more comfortable broadcasting to the
Vort Collective tomorrow. Shoot! I have no idea what my own opinions might
turn out to be tomorrow either. It's a full-time job managing my own
opinions. They change all the time!

Rich, please PLEASE! ...just be responsible expressing your own opinions,
and let others manage the responsibilities of their own.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread Horace Heffner
I wrote: I would not be surprised that most people here, including  
Jed, feel there are various points which justify skepticism.  The  
problem seems to be agreeing on which ones and what a proper course  
would be.  Not that I expect anyone would take any action based on  
comments from the peanut gallery.


Just to avoid miscommunication, I just realized that I should note  
that the above refers to vortex-l as a peanut gallery with respect to  
the Rossi extravaganza.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/






Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson
From Horace

 I wrote: I would not be surprised that most people here, including Jed,
 feel there are various points which justify skepticism.  The problem seems
 to be agreeing on which ones and what a proper course would be.  Not that I
 expect anyone would take any action based on comments from the peanut
 gallery.

 Just to avoid miscommunication, I just realized that I should note that the
 above refers to vortex-l as a peanut gallery with respect to the Rossi
 extravaganza.

Being a staunch card carrying vortex-l member myself, it seemed pretty
clear to me whom you were referring to. ;-)

Make mine salted, please.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread Horace Heffner


On Sep 16, 2011, at 6:20 AM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote:


From Horace

I wrote: I would not be surprised that most people here,  
including Jed,
feel there are various points which justify skepticism.  The  
problem seems
to be agreeing on which ones and what a proper course would be.   
Not that I

expect anyone would take any action based on comments from the peanut
gallery.

Just to avoid miscommunication, I just realized that I should note  
that the
above refers to vortex-l as a peanut gallery with respect to the  
Rossi

extravaganza.


Being a staunch card carrying vortex-l member myself, it seemed pretty
clear to me whom you were referring to. ;-)

Make mine salted, please.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks



I think two bags works best - one for eating and one for throwing!  8^)

Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/






RE: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint
I'm allergic to peanuts... 
:-(

-Mark

-Original Message-
From Horace:
 Just to avoid miscommunication, I just realized that I should note that the
 above refers to vortex-l as a peanut gallery with respect to the Rossi
 extravaganza.

Being a staunch card carrying vortex-l member myself, it seemed pretty
clear to me whom you were referring to. ;-)

Make mine salted, please.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread Rich Murray
Well, I did get an MA in psychology in 1967 -- decades ago, I read
about a Neuro Linguistic Programming gambit, to wit:

Jed, please, above all else, do not just jump swiftly to a completely
skeptical appraisal of Rossi's demos...

the strategy being to use supporting the partner in doing the opposite
of what one thinks is best, in order to plant in the same sentence the
suggestion that mentions what one thinks is best -- e, it works,
too...

from my point of view, it can be helpful to offer a sibling some mild,
accepting, nonpushy outlines that highlight a possible breakthrough --
I've done this for Rossi several times for months, outlining the
possible benefits of publicly acknowledging his own path of folly --
in 1988, when I was losing my friends' investments as an amateur day
trader, a nice stranger took me for lunch, mildly inquired about what
I was doing, and after a while, he muttered something about the danger
of getting caught up in a Ponzi scheme, without requiring me to have
to respond -- it wasn't until 1994 that I was able to sell my house at
a 50% gain, and willingly pay back my many friends $ 70 K -- so I know
how it feels to evolve with the best of intentions step by step into a
hazardous blind alley in the maze of life -- this self-disclosure,
also, is a well-known mode for sharing healing ideas -- we are all one
another's keepers --  I am pleased to see these complex, confused,
polarized discussions going on for weeks and months with warmth and
humor and mild exasperation -- he who talks his walk has foot in the
mouth disease? --  perhaps you have some more reservations re my
sharings -- indeed, I'm all ears! --

within mutual service highlights the awesome actual intimacy within
which apparently highly individualized evolving aspects of single
entire unified creative hyperinfinity collaborate... richly, Rich



On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 6:20 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
 From Mr. Murray

 You [Horace] present calm, clear, extremely reasonable points to justify
 qualified skepticism -- I suspect Jed is likely to agree within a few
 days.

 Horace often presents interesting points worth considering.

 However, for you to follow-up with your own prediction that Mr. Rothwell
 will soon capitulate to the other side is, to put it bluntly, naive of you.
 There is little mutual service in making predictions of the opinions of
 others on these matters. You strike me as being oblivious to the fact that
 what you are doing is a form of psychological manipulation, even though I
 suspect that from Jed's POV, he could care less what your opinion of his
 predicted opinions might be.

 Let me put it to you this way: Is it really any of your business, predicting
 the opinions of others? It's rude and offensive conjecture on your part. It
 serves no purpose other than to give yourself another shot-in-the-arm. It's
 nothing more than manufacturing a form of psychological self-assurance that
 your own opinion must be right, because you now predict that others will
 soon come around to the same opinion of yours as well.

 Really???

 Who knows what opinions Jed may feel more comfortable broadcasting to the
 Vort Collective tomorrow. Shoot! I have no idea what my own opinions might
 turn out to be tomorrow either. It's a full-time job managing my own
 opinions. They change all the time!

 Rich, please PLEASE! ...just be responsible expressing your own opinions,
 and let others manage the responsibilities of their own.

 Regards,
 Steven Vincent Johnson
 www.OrionWorks.com
 www.zazzle.com/orionworks





Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-16 Thread Terry Blanton
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:41 PM, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com wrote:
 Well, I did get an MA in psychology in 1967 -- decades ago, I read
 about a Neuro Linguistic Programming gambit, to wit:

 Jed, please, above all else, do not just jump swiftly to a completely
 skeptical appraisal of Rossi's demos...

 the strategy being to use supporting the partner in doing the opposite
 of what one thinks is best, in order to plant in the same sentence the
 suggestion that mentions what one thinks is best -- e, it works,
 too...

Not on all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgYdVNHNz4Y

T



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Jed Rothwell
I wrote:


 The thing cools down slowly after the pump is turned off at 23:10. assuming
 the reaction is fully quenched at that time . . .


That may be a rash assumption. It is sometimes hard to quench a cold fusion
reaction.

I don't see the temperature going up anywhere after 23:10, so I guess the
reaction is fully off.

The temperature does go up during the heat after death event, which is
impossible without a source of energy in a system where the insulation,
flow, and other heat losses remain constant. It goes from 133.0°C soon after
the power cut-off (22:35) up to 133.7°C for a while at 22:42.

A 0.7°C temperature rise is significant with any thermocouple. That can't be
noise. There is no question there must be a heat source in the cell. What
Catania calls thermal inertia can only release heat at a declining rate.
It can never increase the temperature above where it reached when there was
power going into the cell.

In a pot of hot water after you turn off the flame, you may see a momentary
increase in temperature because the water temperature is not uniform and a
stream of hot water may hit the probe. Once things settle down and water
stops moving much, the temperature falls monotonically. Rapidly at first,
then more slowly. See Newton's Law of Cooling: the rate of change of the
temperature of an object is proportional to the difference between its own
temperature and the ambient temperature (i.e. the temperature of its
surroundings).

In this dataset, after the heater power is cut off, during heat after death,
the cell seems to want to stay at the same temperature. That may sound weird
but it has often been observed in cold fusion cells. It was first reported
by Stanley Pons, who called it a memory. Ed Storms described trying to
quench a reaction that kept going back to the same temperature. Many
physical systems exhibit this kind of behavior in various ways, such as a
modern plastic toothpaste tube. You fold it over and it unfolds. It goes
back to where it was. I myself preferred the old-fashioned ones which stayed
folded.

By the way, the link to this data is available in the article:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264362.ece

Look on the right column, where it says

Ladda ner

Report E-cat test September 7 (pdf)
Temperature data Sept 7 (xls)

- Jed


Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Daniel Rocha
It doesn't go down. The temperature falls to ~100.3C at 23:19:00 but starts
raising at 23:22:01 an slowly raises continuously until the data collect
is stooped at 23:29:07, with a temperature of 105C.


Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Daniel Rocha
There is a curious thing between 23:25:19 and 23:26:23 on column D, where
probably water enters the cell 2. The temperature raises fast ,
but continuously  within 10s, from 24.5C to 67.6C, and then goes back to
24.9C within 60s. The slow raising output doesn't change its slow raising
pattern during this time.


Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Jed Rothwell
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

It doesn't go down. The temperature falls to ~100.3C at 23:19:00 but starts
 raising at 23:22:01 an slowly raises continuously until the data collect
 is stooped at 23:29:07, with a temperature of 105C.


Oh! You are right. I should have graphed it. I must have lost track of the
decimal point or something.

Okay, the log says at 23:10 the pump was stopped and hydrogen pressure
released. That should quench a cold fusion reaction, but maybe not.

That will certainly change the heat loss characteristics. Even with thermal
inertia as the source of heat, I guess that could raise the temperature.

At 23:29, the end of this dataset, the log says they emptied the remaining
hot water through the inlet valve, 22,463 g.

- Jed


Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Craig Haynie
It doesn't go down. The temperature falls to ~100.3C at 23:19:00 but
starts raising at 23:22:01 an slowly raises continuously until the data
collect is stooped at 23:29:07, with a temperature of 105C. 

At 23:15:53 the temperature is 114. Then it begins dropping rapidly. I
am assuming this is when pressure is released inside the device, forcing
the temperature down to 100.3 where the temperature stalls until about
23:22:03 where it then starts to rise. It could very well be that
someone closed the valve that equalized the pressure. I don't know how
to confirm this but there was a valve open at one point near the end of
the run.

Craig




Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Jed Rothwell
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

There is a curious thing between 23:25:19 and 23:26:23 on column D, where
 probably water enters the cell 2.


I believe this is discussed in the log graph:

Note: jumps in serie2 to (inlet water temp) are due to the probe being
pulled out of the water for short moments.

- Jed


Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Akira Shirakawa

On 2011-09-15 22:13, Jed Rothwell wrote:

This is very helpful. See:

http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3267991.ece/BINARY/Temperature+data+Sept+7+%28xls%29

The data is taken at 2 second intervals.

The thing cools down slowly after the pump is turned off at 23:10.
assuming the reaction is fully quenched at that time you can estimate
how good the insulation is.


I tried making a more detailed chart:

http://i.imgur.com/lU42G.png

Cheers,
S.A.



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Jed Rothwell

Akira Shirakawa wrote:


I tried making a more detailed chart:

http://i.imgur.com/lU42G.png


Good job.

The heat-after-death event is marked here in the top graph with the red 
cross-hatching, between 22:35 and 23:10.


I do not see why you have the Input Current (A) rising at around 18:35 
from 0 to 11. I thought that happened at 18:59.


I guess there is no vertical axis left for Power Level.

You could remove everything before 18:00. I don't see anything happening.


It is a shame they did not start earlier in the day. Lewan says he 
regrets cutting off the test when they did. It was late at night and he 
was tired. Another hour of heat after death would have been nice. 
(Although actually 35 minutes is long enough to prove the point. In 
other tests it has gone for hours or days. You could let it go for 10 
years and Certain People would still say it is caused by thermal 
inertia or recombination or what-have-you.)


- Jed



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Horace Heffner


On Sep 15, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:


I wrote:

The thing cools down slowly after the pump is turned off at 23:10.  
assuming the reaction is fully quenched at that time . . .


That may be a rash assumption. It is sometimes hard to quench a  
cold fusion reaction.


I don't see the temperature going up anywhere after 23:10, so I  
guess the reaction is fully off.


The temperature does go up during the heat after death event, which  
is impossible without a source of energy in a system where the  
insulation, flow, and other heat losses remain constant. It goes  
from 133.0°C soon after the power cut-off (22:35) up to 133.7°C for  
a while at 22:42.


A 0.7°C temperature rise is significant with any thermocouple. That  
can't be noise. There is no question there must be a heat source in  
the cell.


Yes - it is the 80 kg of cell metal which has stored heat.

What Catania calls thermal inertia can only release heat at a  
declining rate.


This is not true. There can be a slow transmission rate in the flow  
of heat pulses through matter.



It can never increase the temperature above where it reached when  
there was power going into the cell.


Again not true.




In a pot of hot water after you turn off the flame, you may see a  
momentary increase in temperature because the water temperature is  
not uniform and a stream of hot water may hit the probe. Once  
things settle down and water stops moving much, the temperature  
falls monotonically. Rapidly at first, then more slowly. See  
Newton's Law of Cooling: the rate of change of the temperature of  
an object is proportional to the difference between its own  
temperature and the ambient temperature (i.e. the temperature of  
its surroundings).


Again a false analogy.  The walls of the pot are thin.  It only takes  
seconds or fractions of a second for  a uniform thermal gradient in  
the pan walls to form and a small delta T between the inside and  
outside of the pan walls to develop.,




In this dataset, after the heater power is cut off, during heat  
after death, the cell seems to want to stay at the same temperature.


Yes, the majority of the heat is located a meaningful distance from,  
and through a (comparatively) large thermal resistance to, the  
thermometer and the water.



That may sound weird but it has often been observed in cold fusion  
cells. It was first reported by Stanley Pons, who called it a  
memory. Ed Storms described trying to quench a reaction that kept  
going back to the same temperature. Many physical systems exhibit  
this kind of behavior in various ways, such as a modern plastic  
toothpaste tube. You fold it over and it unfolds. It goes back to  
where it was. I myself preferred the old-fashioned ones which  
stayed folded.


By the way, the link to this data is available in the article:

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264362.ece

Look on the right column, where it says

Ladda ner

Report E-cat test September 7 (pdf)
Temperature data Sept 7 (xls)

- Jed



Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/






Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Akira Shirakawa

On 2011-09-15 23:32, Jed Rothwell wrote:

The heat-after-death event is marked here in the top graph with the red
cross-hatching, between 22:35 and 23:10.


Correct!


I do not see why you have the Input Current (A) rising at around 18:35
from 0 to 11. I thought that happened at 18:59.


This is from the report:


18:35 The control box was switched on. Over all input AC current was 0.139 A. 
DC current was insignificant.

18:59 Power to the electric resistance was set to the value “5.” on the control 
panel. The system apparently switched on and off the power intermittently about 
every second, which resulted in an input AC current that went continuously 
between zero and 11.4 A.


The resistance was switched on at 18:59 according to it. This caused 
intermittent readings for some time, but for practical reasons I left 
the data point to the reported 11.4 A in the chart. By the way, you can 
see that data points for voltage and currents measurements are linearly 
interpolated, but that's just for the sake graphical clarity. Of course 
I'm aware that those measurements weren't continuous. I emphasized that 
in the chart by making individual data points visible with symbols.



I guess there is no vertical axis left for Power Level.


The power level has no scale, but again for practical reasons I aligned 
it to the secondary axis (for current values, on the right).



You could remove everything before 18:00. I don't see anything happening.


Ok, will do.


It is a shame they did not start earlier in the day. Lewan says he
regrets cutting off the test when they did. It was late at night and he
was tired. Another hour of heat after death would have been nice.
(Although actually 35 minutes is long enough to prove the point. In
other tests it has gone for hours or days. You could let it go for 10
years and Certain People would still say it is caused by thermal
inertia or recombination or what-have-you.)


At the very least it should have been ran long enough to reasonably 
exclude (= not taking into account exotic or dangerous methods) hidden 
heating sources contained in the black box volume. Also, electricity 
measurements should have been continuous, and the temperature probe for 
water should have been put in a visible place outside the black box.


Cheers,
S.A.



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Jed Rothwell

Horace Heffner wrote:

A 0.7°C temperature rise is significant with any thermocouple. That 
can't be noise. There is no question there must be a heat source in 
the cell.


Yes - it is the 80 kg of cell metal which has stored heat.


Stored heat can only be released monotonically declining. The rate 
cannot increase, as far as I know. It is passive. The temperature can 
only rise if you increase the insulation or slow down the flow rate with 
this system. Or generate heat, of course.



What Catania calls thermal inertia can only release heat at a 
declining rate.


This is not true. There can be a slow transmission rate in the flow of 
heat pulses through matter.


Of course there can be a slow transmission rate or flow of heat! I 
didn't say you can't have slow transmission; I said it cannot _speed up_ 
on its own without some external or internal change. As far as I know 
that is thermodynamically impossible. Can you explain how this would 
work, or cite an example of this happening elsewhere? The flow of heat 
can only slow down, as the temperature difference between the two bodies 
decreases, per Newton's law.



It can never increase the temperature above where it reached when 
there was power going into the cell.


Again not true.


Sez who?

Lemme put it this way: that is my understanding of thermodynamics, and I 
have never seen data from a calorimeter that contradicts it. 
Calorimeters would not work if this was possible. You could not tell the 
difference between power and a situation in which metal suddenly decides 
to increase conduction for no apparent reason, with no change in the 
lattice.


- Jed



Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Horace Heffner


On Sep 15, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:


Horace Heffner wrote:

A 0.7°C temperature rise is significant with any thermocouple.  
That can't be noise. There is no question there must be a heat  
source in the cell.


Yes - it is the 80 kg of cell metal which has stored heat.


Stored heat can only be released monotonically declining. The rate  
cannot increase, as far as I know. It is passive. The temperature  
can only rise if you increase the insulation or slow down the flow  
rate with this system. Or generate heat, of course.



What Catania calls thermal inertia can only release heat at a  
declining rate.


This is not true. There can be a slow transmission rate in the  
flow of heat pulses through matter.


Of course there can be a slow transmission rate or flow of heat! I  
didn't say you can't have slow transmission; I said it cannot speed  
up on its own without some external or internal change. As far as I  
know that is thermodynamically impossible. Can you explain how this  
would work, or cite an example of this happening elsewhere? The  
flow of heat can only slow down, as the temperature difference  
between the two bodies decreases, per Newton's law.



It can never increase the temperature above where it reached when  
there was power going into the cell.


Again not true.


Sez who?


Sez me.  Who else?  8^)   The magic words are open sez a me.




Lemme put it this way: that is my understanding of thermodynamics,  
and I have never seen data from a calorimeter that contradicts it.  
Calorimeters would not work if this was possible. You could not  
tell the difference between power and a situation in which metal  
suddenly decides to increase conduction for no apparent reason,  
with no change in the lattice.


- Jed



Metal does not change its characteristics.

Jed, it appears you need to read up on thermal diffusivity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_diffusivity

Your misconceptions demonstrate why high precision thermal FEA  
analysis is required to understand dynamic thermal systems.  Using  
FEA you can see thermal pulses migrate through systems, and get an  
intuitive feel for the dynamics.


Here is a site that might be of use to you:

http://ccl.northwestern.edu/papers/ABMVisualizationGuidelines/palette/ 
examples/Heat%20Difussion/


http://tinyurl.com/3emm6g8

However it only shows dynamic thermal flows through a single plate  
made all of the same material.  There is no facility for insulating  
plate edges etc.  Note that you can move the edge temperature sliders  
while the simulation is running.


If you visualize chunks of metal as capacitors and the heat  
conduction paths between them is resistors, then you can see that if  
you apply a variable signal to an RC network that it can propagate  
the signal in the form of pulses.   It is possible I suppose to build  
the thermal equivalent of an RC transmission line for carrying  
thermal pulses. I don't know what application such a thing would have  
though.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/






Re: [Vo]:Lewan uploads temperature data for Sept. 7 run

2011-09-15 Thread Jouni Valkonen
Rich, as E-Cat is not closed system but there is (small) opening into
ambient pressure and water temperature is above ambient boiling point,
therefore water inside E-Cat is always boiling. That is because pressure
inside E-Cat is generated by steam production. If there is no boiling, then
there will not be excess pressure at least not more than is required to push
water out.

—Jouni
On Sep 16, 2011 6:27 AM, Rich Murray rmfor...@gmail.com wrote:
 Horace, thanks for

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_diffusivity

 It's useful to know that water has one of the lowest values -- so if
 some of the water flow is stopped in some parts of the Fat Ecat, for
 instance by being in some side chamber, bypassed by the main flow,
 then it would be slow to come to an equilibrium heat flow, so, for
 instance, doubling of the heat input from the electric heater resistor
 would send a clear-cut heat pulse slowly across the thickness of the
 immobile water, if it doesn't reach boiling temperature, which would
 increase turbulent convective heat transfer -- such a heat pulse could
 reach the thermister a certain time after the electric power cutoff --
 the main point being: we can't assume much about this stunningly
 complex system when we have no details about the design or
 synchronized measures at many locations at once for hours of stable
 operation.

 You present calm, clear, extremely reasonable points to justify
 qualified skepticism -- I suspect Jed is likely to agree within a few
 days.

 within mutual service, Rich