Re: [vos-d] Re: Re: next priorities; mySQL
You know it's spelt Persistence and not Persistance? ;)On 11/04/06, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Neil Mosafi wrote:> Surely the best approach is trying to support as many different database > servers as possible, rather than pushing a single one onto the VOS user?>> To that extent, does anyone know of a flexible C++ data access library which> can be configured to talk to many different databases? I am talking not > only MySql, Postgres etc but also commercial ones like Oracle and Microsoft> SQL Server (or MS SQL Express, which is free)?As long as it can handle very simple and very standard SQL queries, then it ought to be really easy to add support for it to the sqlpersistextension. Though if you get too many databases involved, sqlpersistmight need to be split into seperate extensions for each database with a common library for the abstract classes, or use plugins. http://interreality.org/cgi-bin/moinwiki/moin.cgi/SqlPersistanceExtensionReed-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.orgiD8DBQFEOvGYFK83gN8ItOQRArzUAKCFj94HfHQiODsUjqbnOcQwjLur7ACfaXVL xaCqVCieQDf+HliWCoNh2Hk==RkEn-END PGP SIGNATURE-___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Re: Re: next priorities; mySQL
Surely the best approach is trying to support as many different database servers as possible, rather than pushing a single one onto the VOS user?To that extent, does anyone know of a flexible C++ data access library which can be configured to talk to many different databases? I am talking not only MySql, Postgres etc but also commercial ones like Oracle and Microsoft SQL Server (or MS SQL Express, which is free)? On 10/04/06, Lalo Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 18:55:29 -0400, Reed Hedges wrote:>> my personal goal for .24 would be refurbishing the sqlpersist machinery. I>> just don't trust mysql at all ;-)>> What do you mean, you don't trust it? >> What about PostgreSQL then?I know MySQL is now a complete proper database system, with ACID and all.But up to just a few months ago, it was just a place to dump your datathat happened to (mostly) respond to SQL queries. It gained so much popularity because it was fast; but anyone who really caredabout this database stuff knew that it was faster because it wasincomplete. Like, well, DOS is faster than WinXP.And even now, at least last time I looked, the "completeness" (ACID compliance and whatever else) is optional... the defaultsetup is just as bad (and fast) as it was in the bad old days.The Free Software / Open Source world can do better. Where youneed ACID compliance, safety, robustness, and flexibility, go with PostgreSQL, it's a much better database. Where you needspeed and don't care much about the other stuff, sqlite simplyhumiliates MySQL.As for the "trust"... most admins will go for the "fast" setup, or even not touch the defaults. Then something bad happens tothe data, and it's our fault. Sigh.best, Lalo Martins-- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable.--personal: http://www.laranja.org/ technical:http://lalo.revisioncontrol.net/GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] site peering
What about using XML Signature ( http://www.w3.org/TR/xmldsig-core )? This standard can be used not only to prove who is sending a message, but also that the contents message have not been altered by a third party during transmission, which is another common security concern not mentioned in this post. Simply put, this is done by hashing the contents of a referenced XML block, and then encrypting that hash using a known algorithm/key (private key). Then on the other side you hash the XML block and decrypt the signature (public key) - if they match then you know the message is unaltered and sent by that party. The only issue is whether VOS still uses XML messaging at all, or is it now *pure* binary?On 3/27/06, Peter Amstutz < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 27 Mar 2006, Hugh Perkins wrote:> Peter,>> Disclaimer: the only thing I'm sure about the problem is that I havent fully> understood it ;-)>> The problem appears to be a stable way of identifying each machine? Could > you use an IP address and port as seen by an (internet-based) STUN server?That would be better than what we it does now, yes. However it relies onthere being a STUN server that everyone agrees upon to use, which doesn't really scale. Also it doesn't really address the othermultiple-protocol/multiple-networks problems I outlined in my mail. Oneof the goals of VOS is for the client/server protocol to be essentiallythe same as the server/server interconnection and sychronization protocol. Actually, a little bit of background might be relevant here. VOS wasoriginally conceived as a primarily peer-to-peer system. The world serverwould act merely as a broker which stored the static world geometry and then linked to the connected clients. When you joined the space, youwould connect to each client and then exchange updates (position changes,talk message, etc) directly, without involving the server.This turned out to be unworkable, for a variety of reasons but starting with the fact that lots of people are behind firewalls which don't allowincoming connections. Thus we have turned towards a more traditionalserver-centric model for the end user client. However, since by definition world servers are accessable, the peer-to-peer design is stillvery useful and relevant -- it allows you to create grids of worldservers, or to knit several servers together to serve a single world! The expectation is that VOS would form a dense grid of connections betweenclients, servers, appliances, hubs etc. Keep in mind that these arepersistant connections, which is why it is so important to be able to associate a link with an existing connection: unlike HTTP, they arestateful connections.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ] [ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEJ4uOaeHUyhjCHfcRAjKtAJwJRHtvPiw+OHqy9YsQODEaX3DKogCePEf+WU//Cm26Q1V8gn0RCumGcvc==1ImB-END PGP SIGNATURE-___vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Swig
That it costs anything is a common misconception: The Microsoft C# compiler comes for free with Windows. You can download the Visual Studio 2005 Express Editions for free for a year. You can download other integrated development enviroments for free (such as SharpDevelop) You can build C# in Mono for free, which also runs on Linux which is a free OS. All the MSDN documentation is available for free online. So altogether, it is highly possible to spend no money and build C# apps. On 3/12/06, sconzey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The problem is that as far as I know, C# isn't anywhere near as portable as python, nor is it anywhere near as open. There are many free python development applications, whereas to write C# requires £300 worth of software. My vote's cast for python. On 3/12/06, Hugh Perkins < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hmmm, After playing around a little with C#, I have to agree with Neil: C# rocks. Just to throw some salt in the wounds of the Python discussions, I cant help thinking that C# has all the advantages of both Python (run from source, easy to read) and C++ (strong typing, runs quickly). Btw, OSMP is now available in a C# version ;-) http://manageddreams.com/osmpbb/viewtopic.php?t=333 On 9/2/05, Neil Mosafi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yep, not had much practise with managed C++ as I'm lazy and C# is so much easier (!), but I guess managed C++ could be the way to go for integrating with VOS as it can fully utilise the C++ classes. Still there'd be work required to make the API more ".net like" ___vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d -- QOTD:"Violence is the last resort of the incompetent"-- Isaac Asimov GPG Public Key: http://www.jargonjunkie.com/rants/scones.ascWebsite: http://www.jargonjunkie.com/ ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] local avatar models
Hi Jason
I doubt this has anything to do with it, but you default policy on your avatar object is "property:ready-only" rather than read-onlyRgds
Neil
On 3/4/06, Jason Moyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
When I connect to vip://interreality.org/world with my avatar object is not shown, howeven I connect to a3dldemo running on a local box here it works just fine. The following generates my local avatar.
bool BVavatar::Init( BetaVerse *beta, iVosApi *sec ){ LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "starting..." ); bv = beta; sector = meta_cast( sec->GetVobject() );
CS_ASSERT( sector.isValid() ); CS_ASSERT( bv->site.isValid() ); vRef avatarObj = bv->site->createVobject3(); avatarObj->setDefaultPolicy( "core:read-only,property:ready-only,talkative:send-only" );
avatarObj->setPosition( 0, 0, 0 ); avatarObj->setScalingHT( .3, .3, .3 ); avatarObj->setOrientation( 0, 1, 0, 0 ); avatarObj->setOrientationHT( -1, 0, 0, 90 ); avatarObj->getMaterial()->setColor( .5, .2, .2 );
vRef avatar = meta_cast( avatarObj ); avatar->setNick( bv->prefs->GetNick() );/* don't need this if we create the avatar locally and hence set position/orientation
*/ avatar3d = meta_cast( avatarObj ); CS_ASSERT( avatar3d.isValid() ); avatar3d->setDefaultPolicy( "core:accept-all" ); double x, y, z; double a, b, c, r;
x = y = z = a = b = c = r = 0.0; try { avatar3d->getPosition(x, y, z); avatar3d->getOrientation(a, b, c, r); r *= M_PI/180.0; } catch( std::runtime_error &e )
{ LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 2, "Runtime error while setting position orientation with avatar." ); } LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "x: " << x << " y: " << y << " z: " << z );
LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "a: " << a << " b: " << b << " c: " << c << " r: " << r ); sector->insertChild( -1, bv->prefs->GetNick(), avatarObj );
if( avatar->isLocal() ) { talk = meta_cast( avatar ); if( !talk.isValid() ) { avatar->addType( "misc:talkative" ); talk = meta_cast( avatar );
} } else { CS_ASSERT( bv->site.isValid() ); talk = bv->site->createVobject(); CS_ASSERT( talk.isValid() ); LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "
talk.getURLstr(): " << talk->getURLstr() ); talk->setDefaultPolicy( "core:read-only,talkative:send-only" ); try { if( !avatar.isValid() ) LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "Avatar not vaild, can't add chat." );
vRef t = meta_cast( avatar ); if( t.isValid() ) { LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "t.getURLstr(): " << t->getURLstr() );
t->addRelay( talk ); } else LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "Remote talkative not valid." ); LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "adding relay from " << avatar->getURLstr()
<< " to " << talk->getURLstr() ); } catch( std::runtime_error e ) { LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 2, "Got a runtime error adding ourselves as a relay to the avatar talkative, we won't receive any messages (!?!?)." <<
e.what() ); } } try { vRef tk = meta_cast(sector); if( tk.isValid() ) tk->addRelay( talk ); LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "adding relay from " << tk->getURLstr()
<< " to " << talk->getURLstr() ); } catch(std::runtime_error e) { LOG("BVavatar::Init", 2, "Got a runtime error adding ourselves as a relay to the sector talkative, we won't receive messages from the sector. (!?!?)");
} LOG( "BVavatar::Init", 3, "ended." ); return true;} ___vos-d mailing list
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Re: [vos-d] Simple Object Description
Hmm well I dunno what you mean by "human editable" because I personally don't find XML very hard to edit. But maybe I'm not human? ;) People have been hand-coding HTML and XML for the best part of 10 years now without problems. A major advantage is that if I open a XOD file in any decent text editor (vim, notepad2, visual studio etc) then I get full syntax highlighting all over.. open it in IE and you can see this too! Agreeably, there are probably syntax highlighting for other formats (vim has so many!), but I doubt as many editors will support them. Furthermore, if you create an XSD file to describe the config file schema, most decent XML editors will underline your mistakes as you type, autosuggest possible attributes, and fully validate the XML before you even use it in an application. Maybe you have an issue with the actual format of the XOD file? I personally do not like the way that the value is a child of the property element rather than being an attribute, e.g. I would prefer to 3dworld-blocks.log Anyway good work on providing an alternative configuration format to XOD as people always have their preferences! Neil On 2/3/06, Lalo Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In my crusade against uses of XML for things intended to be edited byhumans (and also to teach myself Spirit), I wrote a Spirit parser for a simple, plain-text store format.It's partially complete; it's only a loader now, not a saver, and somefeatures (specially ACL) are missing, mostly because XOD is stillundocumented. So if someone can point me to what those features are and how XOD does them, I can happily add them (preferrably send me a XODexample).This format is intended for config files and things meant for humans toedit.You can `bzr get` the code from http://lalo.revisioncontrol.net/bzr/sod/(And yes, I know the acronym is weird. Sue me.) ;-)best, Lalo Martins-- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable.--personal: http://www.laranja.org/ technical:http://lalo.revisioncontrol.net/GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/ ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] New VOS classes
Minor point - I think your description is too specific to be termed a "vehicle" Is a hovercraft or ship not also a vehicle? They don't have any wheels! On 12/19/05, Jason Moyers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 12/18/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1 Also, what will be the purpose of a "vehicle" type in A3DL?I'm currently getting hierarchical objects working in CSVOSA3DL.Currently all you would have to do to make that work (once I finish making the CS side work) would be to make the player object a child of the motorcycle 3d object*, and then move the motorcycle around. Ofcourse, for the game logic, a "vehicle" tag might be useful so that the game knows it's a vehicle and provide the right UI to the player ( e.g.special highlight, and click to get "inside" the vehicle) and also maybehave a viewpoint inside it so that you can position the player 3d model correctly on it. But just within the realm of general A3DL you don't neccesarily need to distinguish vehicles, since any object will be ableto "contain" any other within its transformation in space.Anyway, I'll let everyone know when the hierarchical transforms work in CS. The point of the vehicle class would be to provide a standardized API for all wheel-based vehicles. All wheel-based vehicles have x front wheels (0 or more) and y rear wheels(0 or more) and provide drive off of the rear, front or both axles. Also Vehicles contain n seats(1 or more) located at Cn where the player(s) would "sit." So the purpose of a general A3DL vehicle class would be that any client *should* know how to build/use such a vehicle, and it would be uniform through-out. Hierarchical transforms would be beneficial, so you can attach the front wheel(s) and the back wheel(s) and the player(s) to the vehicle body and off you go. So perhaps I should ask where I could help to get hierarchical transforms working? -Jason___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] reducing number of libraries
I think I agree with you Peter, having them as a separate library doesn't make too much sense. You could perhaps use a separate namespace or something? Beyond reading the mailing lists, I've not been following VOS a huge amount recently. So to answer the question I guess you just have to ask if it is possible to write a useful VOS application that would not use the property metaobject? Regards Neil On 12/17/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1I got a big whack of coding done last night, which was very satisfying :-) Something that occurred to me, though, was the current tendency in VOS toover-modularize and have a proliferation of small libraries. While thismakes sense for dynamically loaded plugins, it's annoying if you have to list 10 libraries on the link line to pull in all the features you need.Worse, certain libraries which register themselves with VOS arn't actuallycalled by your app, and so won't generate link errors if they are missing. The wost offenders I'm thinking of right now are libvosapp (1 file) andthe new import/export libaries (1 file/1 library for each of XOD, COD andASE).Collapsing the import/export code into a single library is easy. Perhaps a libvosimpexp_3d could have the loader code for ASE, VRML and othersupported formats. I was thinking, though, that the COD and XOD fileformats are really are generic core feature and should probably be put into the main libvos. XOD, however, relies on the Property metaobject.Vosapp is also now a one file library, and would probably make a lot ofsense to be merged into the main libvos. This also has a direct dependency on the Property metaobject, though.So, with the goal of reducing the number of link libraries involved in atypical VOS app, I'm thinking of merging COD, XOD, vosapp andmetaobject_property into the main libvos. My main concern is over merging the property metaobject. It would add abunch of new files to libvos. From a design standpoint, we've benefittedfrom having the property class be separate, so that none of the core code could treat property vobjects as "special". By having the XOD and vosappcode be aware of properties and part of libvos, this would arguably breakthat encapsulation slightly.On the other hand, it could be fairly argued that the property metaobject is for all intents and purposes a core feature. At this point, it isessential to being able to interoperate with a VOS site (note that wedidn't know this would be the case when we originally designed VOS, which was why it was put as a separate optional module back then.)I would say that the wall between them has held up long enough to provethe point, so it would make sense, and ultimately make everyones lives a bit easier, if the property metaboject were made part of the core libvos.Comments?[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ] [ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDpHPraeHUyhjCHfcRAuF4AKCfcYSE9CfeuHs/4VR1VP0/vwPjRQCghcr7NC11Zf6MQnGL76scAEYW/uQ==ciSh-END PGP SIGNATURE-___vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] configurable UI
We will also need a way of specifying the destination of the event (a"shoot" action would probably go to our avatar, but a "press button" action would go to whatever is in front of us. For mouse events, we wantto specify what is underneath the mouse pointer, and so forth. Would actions have a source as well as a destination? If so surely the source of the "press button" action should be the user's avatar... how could a browser press a button? ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Dynamic interpreted languages getting more popular.
Yep... the pages are compiled into a new class which derives from the codebehind class. On 12/13/05, Nick Bronson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The pages are, the code-behind is actually compiled beforehand and stored in a .dll Nicholas Bronson (BComp) Web Systems Developer Transend Networks Pty Ltd ABN 57 082 586 892 PO Box 606 MOONAH Tasmania Australia 70091-7 Maria Street LENAH VALLEY Tasmania Australia 7008 Email:Work:Mobile:Fax:Switchboard: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03 6274 37470416 171 57703 6274 37361300 361 811 Confidential The information contained in this message, and any attachments, may include confidential or privileged information and is intended solely for the named recipient(s). If you are not a named recipient of this message, you may not copy or deliver the contents of this message or its attachments to anyone. If you have received this message in error, please notify me immediately by return email or by the telephone number. listed above and destroy the original message. Transend utilises third party virus checking software. Transend will not be held responsible for the inability of third party software packages to detect or prevent the propagation of any virus how so ever generated. Thank you. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Neil MosafiSent: Tuesday, 13 December 2005 11:21To: VOS DiscussionSubject: Re: [vos-d] Dynamic interpreted languages getting more popular. Nope, well not AFAIK anyway unless ms have changed something in .NET2. ASPX pages are actually compiled on the fly when you first browse to the page. Makes for faster rendering I guess? On 12/13/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: On Dec 12, 2005, at 6:50 PM, Neil Mosafi wrote:> _javascript_ is a client side language.> ASP sites would generally be written in _vbscript_ for the server side > code, and ASP.NET in either C# or VB.NET, both of which are compiled.Can you run VB.NET interpreted as well?___ vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Dynamic interpreted languages getting more popular.
Nope, well not AFAIK anyway unless ms have changed something in .NET2. ASPX pages are actually compiled on the fly when you first browse to the page. Makes for faster rendering I guess? On 12/13/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Dec 12, 2005, at 6:50 PM, Neil Mosafi wrote:> _javascript_ is a client side language.> ASP sites would generally be written in _vbscript_ for the server side > code, and ASP.NET in either C# or VB.NET, both of which are compiled.Can you run VB.NET interpreted as well? ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Dynamic interpreted languages getting more popular.
_javascript_ is a client side language. ASP sites would generally be written in _vbscript_ for the server side code, and ASP.NET in either C# or VB.NET, both of which are compiled. On 12/12/05, Brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -Original Message-> From: Reed Hedge> Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 5:02 PM > Subject: [vos-d] Dynamic interpreted languages getting more popular.>>> This article is about a survey of programming languages.> Despite it's repeated use of terms like "managed code" and > "enterprise" and claim that C# is the big winner, the survey> shows that interpreted languages like Python, Ruby, etc. plus> "scripting languages" (into which they lump Perl, PHP and > _javascript_???) show a lot of growth also. C++ has a slight> loss, Java has a bit of growth.ASP and ASP.NET applications are generally written with _javascript_ as the server-side scripting language, so it probably qualifies in that context. Alot of people use _vbscript_ server-side, too.___vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] migrate to subversion?
I definitely agree. I have started using SVN for all my personal source control needs and upgraded our work repository from SourceSafe (urgghhh!) to SVN (enjoy!). It's vastly superior to CVS, and TortoiseSVN (the windows client) is very good indeed. It has much better support good for moving files around as you still keep the history, and renaming or moving directories too. It also supports branches and tags, and does this cleanly through soft linking on the server (links are broken when a branch's files are changed) All in all I like it and think it would be a good decision to move any project to it. On 11/29/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1I'm thinking about migrating the VOS source repository from CVS to SVN. We use SVN at work (Linux server, Windows clients) and it has a variety ofadvantages, such as atomic commits, better handling of binary files,*vastly* better handling for deleting and renaming files and directories, a branching and merging model that is a lot easier to understand (I'venever figured out CVS branches), better client support on Windows, easierto set up fine-grained permissions, and overall better support (with continuing active development).http://subversion.tigris.org/Discuss.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFDjGm4aeHUyhjCHfcRAoYvAJwKnPNNBIqppfFTFo7XkURHJWL/0ACeJxSjIZAvw66NBTPNuKrk0ZBaGQY==zF4K-END PGP SIGNATURE-___ vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Re: sample VOS XML
How about calling it ReferenceUri or something similar? On 10/26/05, Lalo Martins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And so says Reed Hedges on 10/26/05 05:08...> What the hell does "href" mean? ;) The "h" is for hyper or hypertext or somesuch.best, Lalo Martins-- So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable.--http://www.exoweb.net/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNU: never give up freedom http://www.gnu.org/___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Re: sample VOS XML
OK I know (unfortunately) I've not been paying huge attention to recent VOS going ons but I would say that I'd be highly inclined to go down the XML route here. As you said, XML is pretty much the norm nowadays for describing any form of arbitrary data. Other reasons I can think of for going with XML are: - XML can be validated (using XSD) and transformed (using XSLT), which could both prove to be useful for VOS in the future - XML parsers exist for every platform out there from PDA to supercomputer! - Syntax highlighting is built in to most editors (vi, notepad2, textpad, visual studio etc). Some of these can even link to the XSD file and can provide you real time validation as you type - There are also lots of XML editors out there which can give you a graphical or collapsable view of your XML configuration file - There are lots of other bolt-on technologies and standards related to to XML, such as XML signing, XML encryption and SOAP web services. Regards Neil On 10/25/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Lalo Martins wrote:> And so says Peter Amstutz on 10/24/05 01:29... >> Alright, I've come around and decided that maybe an XML representation>> is the way to go. Here's a sample file that demonstrates how it might>> look:>> Yuck. Can I insist on YAML? :-P >> It looks horrible, and I really don't think XML is the best choice for> *anything* that has to be written, read, and edited by humans.Ok then, for comparison's sake, here's how it might look in YAML: Site:# Site consists of one or more root vobjects - Vobject: worldType: a3dl:sector# (optional) defines access control policy for this vobject and# all children that don't define their own access control policy Acl: - Policy: core:accept-all,property:deny-all- Member: /phred- Member: /barneyChildren:# Shorthand for defining a child vobject property - Property: example Datatype: text/plainData: Data goes here# Link to a vobject on a remote site - Link: bloxxTo: vip://interreality.org/bloxx # Link to a vobject on the local site - Link: that-guyTo: /phred# Can also specify a child object and supply datablocks (so it is# loaded via the persistance interface) - Child: another-example Type: property:propertyBlocks: - Name: property:dataData: Hello there - Name: property:datatypeData: text/plain# Child nodes are processed recursively the same way as vobject nodes - Child: an-objectType: a3dl:object3d.cube- Property: a3dl:position Data: 1 2 3- Property: a3dl:orientation Data: 0 1 0 90- Child: a3dl:material Type: a3dl:material - Property: a3dl:colorData: .3 .5 .7# Can define additional vobjects which are not connected to the# first vobject- Vobject: phred Type: core:identity,misc:avatar - Vobject: barney Type: core:identity,misc:avatarNumber of lines in XML: 45Number of of lines in YAML: 53This represents a fairly literal translation of the proposed XML grammar to a YAML grammar. There may be a better way to do it... Or it may bethat there are restrictions in the data model that I'm not seeing, whichwould require expanding the structure a bit more.Alright, my comments. First off, I'm not keen whitespace-sensitive syntaxes in general. Python (for example) is nice and all, but in myexperience whitespace sensitivity just makes tasks like cutting andpasting blocks of code a huge pain in the ass, because it's impossible to have the editor autoformat your code. Also, as you can see above, whenyou start inserting comments and empty lines, or a data block becomesparticularly large, it becomes increasingly hard to keep track of indentation level. So I don't feel it is huge advantage in readabilityand editing that people make it out to be.My second issue is that it doesn't seem to directly support the notion ofa "associative array" which is at the heart of VOS. It has a sequence type, and a mapping type, but no ordered, associative sequence type.This makes specifying heterogenous lists (such as the child list, whereeach entry can be an embedded object, a link, or a property) at best a bit less elegant, at worst impossible (I haven't looked closely enough at theschema language yet).Third, it's not clear there is even a working C++ or C implementation of aYAML parser, and I don't intend to write my own. Reasons I've come around to XML, despite not liking it initially:* Parts of VOS were deliberately based on XML DOM -- this is why HyperVOSworks so well. So mapping VOS into XML isn't that much of a stretch. * Everybody and their dog knows XML and is already comfortable with thesyntax.* Rich toolset and library support for every language, OS and platform.* It's the magical XML pixie dust that makes everything more exciting!!! I do agree
Re: [vos-d] Swig
Yep, not had much practise with managed C++ as I'm lazy and C# is so much easier (!), but I guess managed C++ could be the way to go for integrating with VOS as it can fully utilise the C++ classes.
Still there'd be work required to make the API more ".net like"
On 9/2/05, Peter Amstutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Reed Hedges wrote:> Am I correct that it's no problem to call C++ code or link against a C++
> library from .net? Would the C++ library (libvos for example :) need to> be compiled with CLR (".net extensions") enabled?>> ReedSee my last email :-)Basically, linking managed/unmanaged C++ is easy. Linking unmanged c++ to
any other .Net language requires writing a mananged API wrapper.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][
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Re: [vos-d] Swig
Hi
Well finally something I feel qualified to comment on!
I'm not sure about C++ functions, but you can definitely call C functions which are exposed in DLLs using P/Invoke in .NET. It's very simple - you just create a bunch of .NET functions which match the C function signatures, then you can use certain attributes for telling it which DLL the method is in and how to marshal the managed memory to unmanaged memory. If you want a nice API it's best to design something that behaves more like a .NET component would (
e.g using delegates and event handlers rather than inheriting off the PropertyListener for notifications) which would take some work.
Anyway I can't possibly agree with Hugh's statement about C# being the same as VB! It's much closer to C++/Java. Maybe he meant that VB.NET and C# will both compile into the same MSIL code or something?
Regards,Neil
On 9/2/05, Reed Hedges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 11:32:11PM +0200, Hugh Perkins wrote:> What Peter said. I think. It's been a while :-)
>> Random aside: I've been playing with .Net at work; it's kindof cool, though> it's basically VB with a C++ syntactic sugar. I dunno why people claim that> C# means the end of VB, since C# basically *is* VB. It's still pretty cool
> though :-)Am I correct that it's no problem to call C++ code or link against a C++ libraryfrom .net? Would the C++ library (libvos for example :) need to be compiledwith CLR (".net extensions") enabled?
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