Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
Am Samstag, 28. Juni 2008 14:47:39 schrieb Giel van Schijndel: > > If we cannot simply close it because it is misplaced, we would have > > to restart a time consuming discussion about this feature in the bug > > tracker - a place hardly anybody reads. It is much better that such > > ideas are raised in the forums, and if there is agreement enough that > > this is a good idea, then a wiki page is started for it that sketches > > out how it can be implemented, and answers are worked out for the > > problems people see with it. > > IMO spreading information across a large amount of different locations > is much worse than having it "buried" in a single location. As searching > in the forums, wiki, ML and tracker is much more work than just a > tracker and the ML. > > That said, I do agree that (the more complex) features would need to be > further specified than just "Warzone should have limited ammo support". limited ammo, if you are going to do it correctly, needs a lot of thinking too. It is not enough to simply add a numShots variable to DROID or something like that. You need to think about this shall be integrated into the game, how ammo is resupplied, how this will enhance the gameplay (instead of just making it more complicated without benefit) and how it does not get into the way of the user and make managing an army an unsolvable task. --Dennis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
Per Inge Mathisen schreef: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Dennis Schridde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> I am quite sure we have discussed this before, and we made a decision >>> that we should not put feature requests in the bug tracker, because >>> this would fill up the bug tracker and make it harder to find and sort >>> bugs. (And I hope you agree that fixing bugs is more important than >>> adding features.) >> I think that is what priority:wish is for. :) You can iirc filter for >> priority>wish > > But you cannot filter it away, at least not easily. So feature > requests will pollute the bug list. That is unacceptable. We *need* to > focus on clearing the bug list, and then it must be readily and easily > available. Bugs must not be hidden among hundreds of feature requests. > Bug reports are much more important than feature requests! If the tracker doesn't provide sufficient filtering options then I suggest that we start thinking about taking something else (e.g. Trac) into serious use. As soon as Kamaze is finished with his school stuff and I'm with mine (will take until next Tuesday), then we'll be able to move my currently configured Trac environment to Kamaze's server. From that point on I think that Trac will be a viable option, especially because it allows writing custom SQL queries to generate lists of selected tickets. >> And yes, I agree that there should no feature request popup in the bugtracker >> which are unrealistic. >> Discuss with other users -> file a request. In that order. >> There are also wrong or newbie bugreports, but the overall quality is >> acceptable. I think if we can make the discuss-first-report-later policy >> clear to the users, the same would work for feature requests. > > Who is going to tell people that their fancy, enthustiastic idea is > stupid, and emphasize the point by rudely closing their feature > request? It is either not going to happen, or it will take way too > much developer time. Then don't tell them their idea is "stupid". Just explain to them *why* some feature cannot be implemented or would take too much time. If you don't take the time to explain something to users, you shouldn't expect them to understand you and accept you rejecting their request. I think it's just as simple as that: if we treat our users as people that can think for themselves, then they're more likely to do so. > Take the idea of limited ammo for all units. This was discussed > extensively in connection with Watermelon's patch that implemented > this feature. I am not sure if this was on the forums or on this list, > or both. It was soundly rejected - yet it appears again as a feature > request in the bug tracker. IIRC his patch was rejected because of his implementation of the feature, not because of the feature itself. In fact I'd personally like to see "ammunition management" implemented on the DROID level as well, because it would be a better generalisation of the current "VTOL runs" system. About the discussion locations: his patch & implementation were mostly discussed on this ML, the feature itself was discussed mostly on the forums. This is also the place where the feature was advertised most heavily by Watermelon himself AFAIK. > If we cannot simply close it because it is misplaced, we would have > to restart a time consuming discussion about this feature in the bug > tracker - a place hardly anybody reads. It is much better that such > ideas are raised in the forums, and if there is agreement enough that > this is a good idea, then a wiki page is started for it that sketches > out how it can be implemented, and answers are worked out for the > problems people see with it. IMO spreading information across a large amount of different locations is much worse than having it "buried" in a single location. As searching in the forums, wiki, ML and tracker is much more work than just a tracker and the ML. That said, I do agree that (the more complex) features would need to be further specified than just "Warzone should have limited ammo support". I'd say a semi-formalised requirements gathering process might help here. Though I wouldn't go as far as to demand a full requirements model, a la Hatley & Pirbhai, because I think that in our case that'd be overkill. > This way also rejected ideas can be documented with reasons why - > instead of being closed and buried in a tracker, which is in any case > much harder to read. No, instead these features would be buried in a wikipage... Aside from the stylish differences between wikipages and tracker items (content oriented vs process and communication oriented) I don't see much difference there. -- Giel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
Am Samstag, 28. Juni 2008 14:19:29 schrieb Per Inge Mathisen: > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Dennis Schridde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Basically this is something like this, right? > > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/bzr > > Yes, like this: > http://bazaar-vcs.org/SubmitByMail#preview Yep, meant that. Link to wiki page, and one page indexing those pages in an overview. --Dennis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Dennis Schridde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Basically this is something like this, right? > https://blueprints.launchpad.net/bzr Yes, like this: http://bazaar-vcs.org/SubmitByMail#preview - Per ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
Uhm, what about a forum called "Feature requests", where people can rate/rank/comment it, and a developer gives prefixes to it, like: [Planned] [Implemented] ... And every user can create its own Wiki page for his task list, like devurandom already does. However, the whole thing will be much easier with the next (and propably last) Website-Revision around end this year. - Kamaze Per Inge Mathisen schrieb: > Hello, > > In bug report #11892, Dennis started a discussion about where we > should track feature requests. I am moving the discussion here since > the bug tracker is not an appropriate forum for this discussion. > Quote: > >> Per: I encouraged treating feature requests like bugs when it comes to >> tracking them. >> (a) I dont like to have a dozen trackers >> (b) I dont remember feature requests for long >> (c) I dont react on feature requests in the forums > >> Explanation to (c): Most of the stuff posted on the forums is half baked or >> pie in the sky and comes in often, repeatedly and in huge chunks. >> I simply dont have the time to read through all that or even remember it a >> week from now. >> When someone has an idea that went through a few other users' minds (i.e. on >> the forums) and emerged from the states mentioned above, I would like to get >> it reported in the tracker. >> As I do not dislike the idea in general and there was no previous report, I >> also think this was the right place for the request. (Though that might have >> happened by accident, I do not know.) > > I am quite sure we have discussed this before, and we made a decision > that we should not put feature requests in the bug tracker, because > this would fill up the bug tracker and make it harder to find and sort > bugs. (And I hope you agree that fixing bugs is more important than > adding features.) > > My experience with allowing users to add to a general issue request > tracker is that the tracker becomes unusably bloated, as everybody > (except me;-) is too polite to ever remove feature requests from it. > And users generate (often unrealistic) feature requests at an > incredible rate. > > If we want to track feature requests, we should reopen the task > tracker, or find some other tracker for them, and only allow > developers to insert items into it. Also feature requests should be > required to contain sections on use cases and game balance consequence > analysis (see eg how the Fedora project annotate feature proposals). > This way good ideas can be migrated from the forum to the task tracker > in a disciplined fashion. I definitely do not want to see random > feature requests polluting the bug tracker. > > - Per > > ___ > Warzone-dev mailing list > Warzone-dev@gna.org > https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev > ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
Am Samstag, 28. Juni 2008 11:13:20 schrieb Dennis Schridde: > Am Freitag, 27. Juni 2008 09:56:19 schrieb Per Inge Mathisen: > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Dennis Schridde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> I am quite sure we have discussed this before, and we made a decision > > >> that we should not put feature requests in the bug tracker, because > > >> this would fill up the bug tracker and make it harder to find and sort > > >> bugs. (And I hope you agree that fixing bugs is more important than > > >> adding features.) > > > > > > I think that is what priority:wish is for. :) You can iirc filter for > > > priority>wish > > > > But you cannot filter it away, at least not easily. So feature > > requests will pollute the bug list. That is unacceptable. We *need* to > > focus on clearing the bug list, and then it must be readily and easily > > available. Bugs must not be hidden among hundreds of feature requests. > > Bug reports are much more important than feature requests! > > > > > And yes, I agree that there should no feature request popup in the > > > bugtracker which are unrealistic. > > > Discuss with other users -> file a request. In that order. > > > There are also wrong or newbie bugreports, but the overall quality is > > > acceptable. I think if we can make the discuss-first-report-later > > > policy clear to the users, the same would work for feature requests. > > > > Who is going to tell people that their fancy, enthustiastic idea is > > stupid, and emphasize the point by rudely closing their feature > > request? It is either not going to happen, or it will take way too > > much developer time. > > > > Take the idea of limited ammo for all units. This was discussed > > extensively in connection with Watermelon's patch that implemented > > this feature. I am not sure if this was on the forums or on this list, > > or both. It was soundly rejected - yet it appears again as a feature > > request in the bug tracker. If we cannot simply close it because it is > > misplaced, we would have to restart a time consuming discussion about > > this feature in the bug tracker - a place hardly anybody reads. It is > > much better that such ideas are raised in the forums, and if there is > > agreement enough that this is a good idea, then a wiki page is started > > for it that sketches out how it can be implemented, and answers are > > worked out for the problems people see with it. This way also rejected > > ideas can be documented with reasons why - instead of being closed and > > buried in a tracker, which is in any case much harder to read. > > Sounds like a good proposal. The only thing I am interested in is that > a) Working (or maybe-working) ideas are not lost and > b) I do not have to a follow disccussion of a dozen features, just in case > one post out of a hundred might contain something that's worth thinking > about. (With the other ones, while not necessarily stupid, being nothing > I'd spend too much time on, or already being offtopic. Take the "wish list" > thread as an example: I did not read the first one fully and never looked > into the second one. 9 pages and growing, holy s*...) > > So we tell people to discuss ideas whereever, and when they agree with > eachother that they have a good proposal, they shall create a wiki page > describing the feature/change they want, also handling implications or > difficulties this might impose? > And we then go through that list some times, promoting those which we think > are good and implementable to the next stage? > > A wiki template might be a nice thing to provide a few (!) informations as > a header. PS: Basically this is something like this, right? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/bzr PPS: I'd like to hear input from other people as well... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
Am Freitag, 27. Juni 2008 09:56:19 schrieb Per Inge Mathisen: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Dennis Schridde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> I am quite sure we have discussed this before, and we made a decision > >> that we should not put feature requests in the bug tracker, because > >> this would fill up the bug tracker and make it harder to find and sort > >> bugs. (And I hope you agree that fixing bugs is more important than > >> adding features.) > > > > I think that is what priority:wish is for. :) You can iirc filter for > > priority>wish > > But you cannot filter it away, at least not easily. So feature > requests will pollute the bug list. That is unacceptable. We *need* to > focus on clearing the bug list, and then it must be readily and easily > available. Bugs must not be hidden among hundreds of feature requests. > Bug reports are much more important than feature requests! > > > And yes, I agree that there should no feature request popup in the > > bugtracker which are unrealistic. > > Discuss with other users -> file a request. In that order. > > There are also wrong or newbie bugreports, but the overall quality is > > acceptable. I think if we can make the discuss-first-report-later policy > > clear to the users, the same would work for feature requests. > > Who is going to tell people that their fancy, enthustiastic idea is > stupid, and emphasize the point by rudely closing their feature > request? It is either not going to happen, or it will take way too > much developer time. > > Take the idea of limited ammo for all units. This was discussed > extensively in connection with Watermelon's patch that implemented > this feature. I am not sure if this was on the forums or on this list, > or both. It was soundly rejected - yet it appears again as a feature > request in the bug tracker. If we cannot simply close it because it is > misplaced, we would have to restart a time consuming discussion about > this feature in the bug tracker - a place hardly anybody reads. It is > much better that such ideas are raised in the forums, and if there is > agreement enough that this is a good idea, then a wiki page is started > for it that sketches out how it can be implemented, and answers are > worked out for the problems people see with it. This way also rejected > ideas can be documented with reasons why - instead of being closed and > buried in a tracker, which is in any case much harder to read. Sounds like a good proposal. The only thing I am interested in is that a) Working (or maybe-working) ideas are not lost and b) I do not have to a follow disccussion of a dozen features, just in case one post out of a hundred might contain something that's worth thinking about. (With the other ones, while not necessarily stupid, being nothing I'd spend too much time on, or already being offtopic. Take the "wish list" thread as an example: I did not read the first one fully and never looked into the second one. 9 pages and growing, holy s*...) So we tell people to discuss ideas whereever, and when they agree with eachother that they have a good proposal, they shall create a wiki page describing the feature/change they want, also handling implications or difficulties this might impose? And we then go through that list some times, promoting those which we think are good and implementable to the next stage? A wiki template might be a nice thing to provide a few (!) informations as a header. --Dennis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Dennis Schridde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I am quite sure we have discussed this before, and we made a decision >> that we should not put feature requests in the bug tracker, because >> this would fill up the bug tracker and make it harder to find and sort >> bugs. (And I hope you agree that fixing bugs is more important than >> adding features.) > I think that is what priority:wish is for. :) You can iirc filter for > priority>wish But you cannot filter it away, at least not easily. So feature requests will pollute the bug list. That is unacceptable. We *need* to focus on clearing the bug list, and then it must be readily and easily available. Bugs must not be hidden among hundreds of feature requests. Bug reports are much more important than feature requests! > And yes, I agree that there should no feature request popup in the bugtracker > which are unrealistic. > Discuss with other users -> file a request. In that order. > There are also wrong or newbie bugreports, but the overall quality is > acceptable. I think if we can make the discuss-first-report-later policy > clear to the users, the same would work for feature requests. Who is going to tell people that their fancy, enthustiastic idea is stupid, and emphasize the point by rudely closing their feature request? It is either not going to happen, or it will take way too much developer time. Take the idea of limited ammo for all units. This was discussed extensively in connection with Watermelon's patch that implemented this feature. I am not sure if this was on the forums or on this list, or both. It was soundly rejected - yet it appears again as a feature request in the bug tracker. If we cannot simply close it because it is misplaced, we would have to restart a time consuming discussion about this feature in the bug tracker - a place hardly anybody reads. It is much better that such ideas are raised in the forums, and if there is agreement enough that this is a good idea, then a wiki page is started for it that sketches out how it can be implemented, and answers are worked out for the problems people see with it. This way also rejected ideas can be documented with reasons why - instead of being closed and buried in a tracker, which is in any case much harder to read. - Per ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
Re: [Warzone-dev] Feature tracking
Am Donnerstag, 26. Juni 2008 14:52:36 schrieb Per Inge Mathisen: > Hello, > > In bug report #11892, Dennis started a discussion about where we > should track feature requests. I am moving the discussion here since > the bug tracker is not an appropriate forum for this discussion. > > Quote: > > Per: I encouraged treating feature requests like bugs when it comes to > > tracking them. (a) I dont like to have a dozen trackers > > (b) I dont remember feature requests for long > > (c) I dont react on feature requests in the forums > > > > Explanation to (c): Most of the stuff posted on the forums is half baked > > or pie in the sky and comes in often, repeatedly and in huge chunks. I > > simply dont have the time to read through all that or even remember it a > > week from now. When someone has an idea that went through a few other > > users' minds (i.e. on the forums) and emerged from the states mentioned > > above, I would like to get it reported in the tracker. > > As I do not dislike the idea in general and there was no previous report, > > I also think this was the right place for the request. (Though that might > > have happened by accident, I do not know.) > > I am quite sure we have discussed this before, and we made a decision > that we should not put feature requests in the bug tracker, because > this would fill up the bug tracker and make it harder to find and sort > bugs. (And I hope you agree that fixing bugs is more important than > adding features.) I think that is what priority:wish is for. :) You can iirc filter for priority>wish. And yes, I agree that there should no feature request popup in the bugtracker which are unrealistic. Discuss with other users -> file a request. In that order. There are also wrong or newbie bugreports, but the overall quality is acceptable. I think if we can make the discuss-first-report-later policy clear to the users, the same would work for feature requests. --Dennis PS: Just recognized you cannot filter for > or < or something like that... Will report that to Savanah and Gna staff. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Warzone-dev mailing list Warzone-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/warzone-dev
