[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #52 from Nate Graham  ---
Yep, this is fixed for me. Many thanks for all your hard work, Peter!

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

Peter Hutterer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

--- Comment #51 from Peter Hutterer  ---
patch is on master now, thanks for testing!

commit d6e531349745ff38ae457169d5089ea61297accf
Author: Peter Hutterer <>
Date:   Mon Mar 12 15:24:07 2018 +1000

 filter: improve touchpad acceleration

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #50 from Nate Graham  ---
Being someone who prefers the macOS touchpad acceleration curve, that patch
radically improves things for my hardware and motion preferences. Bug thumbs up
from me!

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #49 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Patch (squashed and polished) is on the list now:
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2018-May/038172.html

The speed range has significantly increased, so this should cover more
use-cases.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

Nate Graham  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|NEW

--- Comment #48 from Nate Graham  ---
That feels *fantastic* to me. I'd be very happy to see that in a real release.
I've been living with v5 and it was already pretty good. I got used to it
fairly quickly. This one is even better.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #47 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Ok, another version to test please:
https://github.com/whot/libinput/tree/wip/touchpad-pointer-accel-v6

Still feels roughly like the macOS one though there are some differences that
tbh I can't quite put my finger on. Either way, it feels precise enough,
especially at -0.1 (for me).

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #46 from Tim Richardson  ---
sorry wrong bug report

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #45 from Tim Richardson  ---

In 90-libinput-model-quirks.hwdb
the two current rules end with a colon
I don't know the syntax of this file, but there is no other example of this
pattern in the file

when I made a separate P50 rule, I did not use a colon at the end, and it
worked.

we do see :* at the end of a few rules. 



 libinput:name:SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad:dmi:*svnLENOVO:*:pvrThinkPad??50*:
 libinput:name:SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad:dmi:*svnLENOVO:*:pvrThinkPad??60*:

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #44 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Created attachment 138716
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=138716=edit
synaptics-libinput-comparison.svg

Please keep this bug on-topic, the hysteresis issues are not for this bug.

Attaching my best efforts to compare synaptics and libinput for archival
purposes. The libinput curve is printed directly with the ptraccel-debug tool
(this is git master without the patches above). For the synaptics curve, I
created a uinput device that moves a touch from left to right at decreasing
time intervals and eventually gets to the maximum speeds shown. The various
values were printed as YAML to the xorg.log and extracted from there with
custom python scripts.

Since the server uses device coordinates everywhere, I divided the velocity for
synaptics values by the resolution I used in the uinput device. This should
give us mm.

The curves shown in the diagram are:
"synaptics" - the accelfct as returned from SynapticsAccelerationProfile for a
given speed. Notice how the curve isn't too dissimilar to the libinput curve in
shape, albeit the libinput curve includes the final accel factor.
"mult" - the multiplier used in the server's acceleratePointerPredictable(),
after taking constant deceleration and the synaptics acceleration factor into
account. This mult factor is then applied to the input deltas (these are in
device coordinates) and the closest match to the 'accel factor' that libinput
uses (but see below).
"libinput" - libinput accel factor applied to a delta at any given speed.

Constant deceleration in synaptics is 1/2.5 (0.4), and quite similar to the
MAGIC we use in libinput (0.37). That latter one was found by trial and error
but having those two similar indicates this is a good value.

I haven't even tried to change synaptics acceleration options, this makes it
even harder...

To the best of my knowledge, the curves are correct. But honestly, this is all
so convoluted that it's hard to be sure. And note that after applying the
acceleration factor, the device coordinates are scaled into screen coordinates
which depends on the screen resolution. IOW, different results for larger
screens (or screens with different aspect ratios). And for all I know, this may
change the curve significantly but this is even harder to test because the
rescaling will clip at screen edges and my testing approach hit those very
quickly.

Also, neither libinput nor synaptics are that simple, there is some analysis of
previous events to adjust the acceleration curve (e.g. on directional changes).

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #43 from Nate Graham  ---
Still not quite perfect, but definitely better than the status quo! Feels best
for me at around accel value -0.1. I can still feel that jarring hard "jump"
when the acceleration curve changes. And it is still a bit (but now only a bit,
not a lot) too fast for slow movements. I'll try to keep using it for a few
days.

Also hysteresis turned itself back on... :/ I really, really dislike how it
keeps turning itself back on every time I re-compile and deploy libinput. It's
incredibly frustrating.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #42 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Awesome, thanks. I hope Nathan can chime in too with some testing comments,
I'll work on getting the range of the acceleration right (or at least big
enough that it should cover most cases). that should, hopefully, improve the
remaining issues.

mtrack is a tricky beast. It's GPL which means I can't look at it for ideas for
libinput without it getting problematic (libinput is MIT). So I don't know if
it has a custom acceleration function but if it does similar initialization to
the synaptics driver than most is handled in the server. but yeah, for testing
and comparison I should probably start using it...

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #41 from Greg Reichow  ---
(In reply to Peter Hutterer from comment #40)
> Can I get you to try a84e79b4aee3563a37485de13c9448981afa4f7c on
> https://github.com/whot/libinput/tree/wip/touchpad-pointer-accel-v5
> 
> This one has a more adjusted curve, close to the macos one but with less
> harsh kick-in. That happens earlier too, combined with a lower baseline.

I tested it some this morning and find it to be a good improvement.  I am still
having a small amount of lack of precision with small movements and a little
too slow when trying to move quickly.  That said, it is far better than the
baseline I was testing and commenting on earlier.  Thanks for your work on
this.  This would definitely be usable for me.

As another reference for profiling, I have been back in the land of Xorg lately
as I am using i3.  The mtrack driver performs very nicely with my hardware and
might be another baseline for comparison.  Yet I assume it suffers from the
same complexity that you described with the Synaptics driver.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

Peter Hutterer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |NEEDINFO

--- Comment #40 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Can I get you to try a84e79b4aee3563a37485de13c9448981afa4f7c on
https://github.com/whot/libinput/tree/wip/touchpad-pointer-accel-v5

This one has a more adjusted curve, close to the macos one but with less harsh
kick-in. That happens earlier too, combined with a lower baseline.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #38 from Peter Hutterer  ---
For the archives, I've done a visual comparison to the synaptics driver,
basically by running Xorg with synaptics and libinput debug-gui with libinput
(without the patch above, just git master at a59ce1c) and looking at the two
cursors. Tests done with libinput acceleration 0 and synaptics' default
acceleration without any changed settings.

1) at really slow motion libinput applies deceleration, cursor speed is approx
the same for both. That's for things like slowly rolling the finger.
2) at slow motion libinput has a much higher acceleration factor than
synaptics, possibly twice as high. Thats for slowly moving the finger across
the touchpad.
3) at some medium speeds, libinput acceleration is still the same baseline but
synaptics starts to accelerate already. This is where synaptics gets faster
than libinput.
4) at high speeds, the acceleration rate is roughly the same but the maximum
acceleration differs. When jerking the finger between two positions, sometimes
the cursors move in parallel, sometimes the libinput cursor moves further than
the synaptics one.

Despite my best efforts so far, I have yet to figure out how to print the
synaptics acceleration curves for analysis. I've tried a few things but none of
them match the perceived movements. There are too many factors and they are
hard to calculate (e.g. screen resolution plays a part). Specifically, once the
cursor is at the edges the behaviour changes and separating that is difficult.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101139

--- Comment #37 from Nate Graham  ---
I think it's both. If you think about it; they're two sides of the same coin: a
shallower initial acceleration starts to look like a smooth curve the more
segments are added.

Since it's a definite improvement in my book, it might be worth committing and
then we can continue to tweak it later. Or should we shoot for fully resolving
the issue in one fell swoop?

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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--- Comment #36 from Peter Hutterer  ---
The jump is probably caused by the angle between flat and actual acceleration
which still looks like this: _/ (ascii-art! :) 
Smoothing this out to be more of a curve may or may not help.

Or the jump is caused by the incline being too steep and acceleration kicking
in too quickly, if you could play around with that that'd be much appreciated.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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--- Comment #35 from Nate Graham  ---
Preliminary impressions: Feels quite nice at 0.0 "libinput accel speed" (i.e
with no configuration). Definitely an improvement over the current profile. It
does still feel like there's an abrupt jump in acceleration between medium and
fast movements, but I think I could live with it.

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--- Comment #34 from Nate Graham  ---
Thanks, I'll give that a whirl later today!

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--- Comment #33 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Created attachment 138012
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=138012=edit
0001-filter-match-accel-roughly-with-macos.patch

This patch matches the macos pointer acceleration, afaict, at least at speed 0
and the min/max ranges sort-of match as well. +1.0 is more controllable than
macos IMO. The negative ranges close to -1.0 have a tendency to shoot off too
much, I think we need some lower max-accel caps here. Anyway, give this one a
try please and let me know what you think.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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--- Comment #32 from Peter Hutterer  ---
doh, sorry, hit the wrong button. Continued:

More experimenting with the lowclip patch is needed, and it needs to be
compared to the original touchpad pointer accel (for which I got a lot of
complaints for, so let's not go back to that).

I think macos may also use pressure values (well, touch sizes) for
acceleration, but I'm not 100% of that. What it definitely has is deceleration
at low speeds, that bit is missing from the lowclip patch. So the things to do
to get closer to macos (from git master):
* keep deceleration at super-low speed
* shorten the plateau
* experiment with the incline a bit more
* verify max accel is still useful once the above is there
* slightly reduce the baseline

lowclip does 2 and 5 of these already, but the baseline is too low for a
default setting. If you want it that low, you can reduce your speed in the
config. The rest, well, we'll have to experiment to see if we come to some
agreement :)

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--- Comment #31 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Hooray. The good news: based on these videos, I don't think we have a libinput
*bug*, this does appear to be just a different preference. AFAICT, the movement
matches what I got with the lowclip patch, at least considering the finger
motion speed etc.

The bad news: to accommodate for this, we'd need some new pointer acceleration
profile because if *that* is your preferred behaviour, it's going to be
difficult to find a middle ground between the current and your patch. Because I
consider the fast pointer motion (like in your second video) to be
uncontrollable, I don't even get near any target when moving fast.

Adding a new profile is relatively trivial, but it opens us up to a few things:
once you have two profiles, the floodgates are open for N profiles. Anyone not
happy with the current profile will be pushing for another profile slightly
different and that's a situation I really want to avoid.

fwiw, my macos at default speed is a lot faster than the lowclip patch. And
given that we have the accel range, I think the first thing to look at is
moving that baseline. From what I can tell, the macos accel doesn't have that
same unaccelerated plateau that we have, it seems to almost contineously
linear.

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--- Comment #28 from Greg Reichow  ---
Couple comments to answer above:

1. Not using a Hi-dpi display. Reported resolution is 1680 x 1050.

2. Exact machine is a 2011 MacBook Pro 8,2 

3. Agree the earlier patch was too fast.  I also found I did not like the
exponential acceleration from my first patch and have since switched full time
to the last patch I submitted (lowclip_patch) which has a simple linear accel
curve yet starts slower to enable precision at low speeds.  For reference, my
comfortable setting is 0.

4. I will try to get some similar video with the slow finger movement and share
back with you.

Is there a utility you have that records both physical input speed and also
resulting cursor speed on screen? I wonder if something is not happening
further up the stack from libinput and causing the differences in resulting
pointer movement?  (As I keep going through the libinput code and do not
understand why we are seeing such different results from similar input speeds
as you have shown above.)

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 101139] Acceleration still too fast with slow and slow-medium finger movements

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--- Comment #27 from Nate Graham  ---
> [1] having said that, I'm now wondering what's going on there, because if I
move 10mm, it moves by ~10mm on the screen, not 3.7

And that, I think, is exactly the bug we're trying to get to the bottom of.

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--- Comment #26 from Peter Hutterer  ---
And here's the thing - libinput's acceleration works in physical distances. So
the hw shouldn't really matter because a speed of 10mm/s is always that,
regardless of the hardware. As long as touchpad-edge-detector and you agree on
the ranges/dimensions on the hardware, there shouldn't be much difference.

That acceleration in the attachment is actually a slowdown, we multiply the
calculated input speed by a magic constant (0.37) so that a physical delta of
10mm should end up in a delta of 3.7mm [1], give or take with the changing
screen resolution. Greg's patch just slows things down even further and a -0.75
should then make this even slower.

The question was directed at anyone btw, sorry, should've made that clear.
If you have a compositor that doesn't support hidpi, you'd see a slowdown
because with twice the pixel density (which libinput knows nothing about) your
delta is half as fast - but that's something the compositor has to take care of
(mutter already does).

It would be good if you could attach an evemu recording from a finger movement.
Close your eyes, put your finger down and move from left to right at about
20mm/s - hard to guess I know but it's basically a medium movement. Then I can
try to reproduce this here, maybe, hopefully.

For reference: here's a video of me moving the finger and the corresponding
cursor movement in the libinput debug-gui:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BTED3UdQwYqw5iW22

[1] having said that, I'm now wondering what's going on there, because if I
move 10mm, it moves by ~10mm on the screen, not 3.7

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--- Comment #25 from Nate Graham  ---
Funny, I notice a MASSIVE difference (all Mac touchpads feel the same; there's
no moderl/year difference in touchpad feel). I'm the kind of person who wants a
touchpad so good that I don't feel the urge to use a mouse, so maybe I'm just
picky. But I really really really do notice the difference.

With Greg's patch, I have to use a -0.75 accel value, and it feels perfect. But
there may be hardware-specific factors at play. My touchpad hardware is
definitely not the highest quality in the world.

I'm not married to Greg's patch per se; my issue with libinput's default
acceleration curve is pretty simple to articulate: it accelerates too much at
slow and slow-medium speeds. Check out the graph attached at
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=136584: Up to 50 mm/s, the
default acceleration is faster than with Greg's patch, and there's a very
abrupt cliff where the acceleration increases. Aside from technical matters,
I'm just not sure what the justification is for accelerating small movements
that much. It makes precise control very difficult.

I do not have a HiDPI screen (didn't know it was directed at me, sorry).
Regular old 1920x1080 @ 13". Not sure it's relevant now since I'm using KDE
Plasma with KWin, not GNOME with Mutter.

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--- Comment #24 from Peter Hutterer  ---
I do, a 2015 macbook air. And while I admit there are differences, I don't
think they're that big. And that's the biggest puzzle, I can switch between the
air and the t440 and notice a bit of a difference but it's not massive. Whereas
the patch above that makes things useful for you makes the cursor absolutely
uncontrollable - and with that I don't mean "i don't like it" but "i cannot hit
a 200x200 size target with it" as soon as I'm going beyond crawling speed. So,
*something* is off and I still have not yet identified what it is.

Again: "please confirm that you do *not* have a hidpi screen"

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Nate Graham  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|Acceleration still too slow |Acceleration still too fast
   |with slow and slow-medium   |with slow and slow-medium
   |finger movements|finger movements

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