Re: [webkit-dev] Disabling the 32-bit JITs by default.

[Filip Pizlo]

Would this be acceptable:

- 32-bit JIT gets disabled on macOS, iOS, and our Windows port, so those JITs 
get no testing on those platforms.
- code can stay in trunk so long as someone has a bot for it (we won’t).
- someone will have to step up to maintain the 32-bit JITs - like MIPS and 
ARMv6, we won’t keep them building or working.

How does that sound?

-Filip


> On Feb 19, 2018, at 5:12 PM, Guillaume Emont  wrote:
> 
> Quoting Filip Pizlo (2018-02-19 14:17:44)
>> 
>>On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Guillaume Emont  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>Quoting Filip Pizlo (2018-02-19 13:05:27)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>On Feb 19, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Guillaume Emont 
>> >> wrote:
>> 
>>Hi Keith,
>> 
>>We at Igalia have been trying to provide a better story for 32-bit
>>platforms, in particular for Armv7 and MIPS. These platforms are
>>very
>>important to us, and disabling JIT renders many use cases
>>impossible.
>> 
>> 
>>What use cases?
>> 
>> 
>>I'm not sure of how much I can elaborate here, but in this particular
>>case that was for a set-top-box UI.
>> 
>> 
>> I bet that this doesn’t need a JIT.
> 
> I have measured performances in a set top box UI a few months ago on a
> mips device: in a typical use case provided by our client, I got 24 fps
> wit JIT+DFG, vs 6 fps without it. In that use case, having the JIT makes
> the difference between unusable and usable.
> 
>> 
>> If you want me to believe that it does, you need to show perf numbers.
> 
> Apart from the above, I can also run some benchmarks. Are there specific
> ones that you think matter more for this discussion? I have 2 mips
> devices as well as a raspberry pi 2 on which I can run benchmarks.
> 
> In the meantime, I quickly ran v8spider on a ci20 mips board on r228714.
> The NoJIT scenario was run with the same binary with JSC_useJIT=false, I
> guess the difference could be bigger if we were comparing to cloop.
> 
> --- v8-spider on mips ---
>  NoJIT  JIT   
>  
> 
> crypto11725.5325+-71.7021^   1830.4683+-6.8751^ 
> definitely 6.4058x faster
> deltablue 38857.3603+-189.8530   ^   2871.5320+-28.7077   ^ 
> definitely 13.5319x faster
> earley-boyer  13350.8512+-106.0597   ^   1775.7125+-4.0989^ 
> definitely 7.5186x faster
> raytrace   7894.6098+-33.3069^   2084.4858+-37.9436   ^ 
> definitely 3.7873x faster
> regexp 4055.1053+-120.4037   ^   2273.6319+-44.3103   ^ 
> definitely 1.7835x faster
> richards  36003.5590+-322.8705   ^   2108.9879+-46.2061   ^ 
> definitely 17.0715x faster
> splay  6936.2468+-24.3808^   1088.6877+-12.1142   ^ 
> definitely 6.3712x faster
> 
>12534.9214+-43.8771^   1934.9295+-5.2966^ 
> definitely 6.4782x faster
> 
> --
> 
> I ran the same on x86_64, and we see that for this benchmark, the
> average JIT speedup is actually less than on mips:
> 
> --- v8-spider on x86_64 ---
>  NoJIT  JIT   
>  
> 
> crypto  758.9786+-2.7148 ^ 83.2100+-17.1005   ^ 
> definitely 9.1212x faster
> deltablue  1330.8087+-149.0367   ^120.3405+-15.2389   ^ 
> definitely 11.0587x faster
> earley-boyer575.8073+-44.5565^ 90.5132+-15.6952   ^ 
> definitely 6.3616x faster
> raytrace322.8087+-8.4965 ^ 58.8531+-2.7943^ 
> definitely 5.4850x faster
> regexp  191.0544+-2.1591 ^131.5052+-35.2153   ^ 
> definitely 1.4528x faster
> richards   1439.3209+-117.4325   ^100.1944+-4.8524^ 
> definitely 14.3653x faster
> splay   279.3245+-7.1500 ^ 97.1257+-17.8935   ^ 
> definitely 2.8759x faster
> 
>  545.4854+-13.2273^ 94.3486+-5.6174^ 
> definitely 5.7816x faster
> 
> --
> 
>> 
>>I realize that having a JIT is good for marketing, but it’s better to
>>have a stable and well-maintained interpreter than a decrepit JIT.
>> Right now the 32-bit JIT is basically unmaintained.
>> 
>> 
>>Indeed these platforms used to be practically abandoned in WebKit. I
>>don't think that is true any more though. We've been working on fixing
>>this and getting mips32 and armv7+thumb2 to pass all the tests. We have
>>achieved that for mips32[1] and we are almost there for armv7[2]. I
>>would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that effort.
>> 
>>[1] https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20MIPS32el%20Release
>>[2] https://build.webkit.org/builders/
>>JSCOnly%20Linux%20ARMv7%20Thumb2%20Release
>> 
>> 
>> Passing all of the tests does not constitute stability in my book.  You need 
>> a
>> lot of 

Re: [webkit-dev] Disabling the 32-bit JITs by default.

[Guillaume Emont]

Quoting Filip Pizlo (2018-02-19 14:17:44)
> 
> On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Guillaume Emont  
> wrote:
> 
> Quoting Filip Pizlo (2018-02-19 13:05:27)
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 19, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Guillaume Emont 
>  > wrote:
> 
> Hi Keith,
> 
> We at Igalia have been trying to provide a better story for 32-bit
> platforms, in particular for Armv7 and MIPS. These platforms are
> very
> important to us, and disabling JIT renders many use cases
> impossible.
> 
> 
> What use cases?
> 
> 
> I'm not sure of how much I can elaborate here, but in this particular
> case that was for a set-top-box UI.
> 
> 
> I bet that this doesn’t need a JIT.

I have measured performances in a set top box UI a few months ago on a
mips device: in a typical use case provided by our client, I got 24 fps
wit JIT+DFG, vs 6 fps without it. In that use case, having the JIT makes
the difference between unusable and usable.

> 
> If you want me to believe that it does, you need to show perf numbers.

Apart from the above, I can also run some benchmarks. Are there specific
ones that you think matter more for this discussion? I have 2 mips
devices as well as a raspberry pi 2 on which I can run benchmarks.

In the meantime, I quickly ran v8spider on a ci20 mips board on r228714.
The NoJIT scenario was run with the same binary with JSC_useJIT=false, I
guess the difference could be bigger if we were comparing to cloop.

--- v8-spider on mips ---
  NoJIT  JIT


crypto11725.5325+-71.7021^   1830.4683+-6.8751^ 
definitely 6.4058x faster
deltablue 38857.3603+-189.8530   ^   2871.5320+-28.7077   ^ 
definitely 13.5319x faster
earley-boyer  13350.8512+-106.0597   ^   1775.7125+-4.0989^ 
definitely 7.5186x faster
raytrace   7894.6098+-33.3069^   2084.4858+-37.9436   ^ 
definitely 3.7873x faster
regexp 4055.1053+-120.4037   ^   2273.6319+-44.3103   ^ 
definitely 1.7835x faster
richards  36003.5590+-322.8705   ^   2108.9879+-46.2061   ^ 
definitely 17.0715x faster
splay  6936.2468+-24.3808^   1088.6877+-12.1142   ^ 
definitely 6.3712x faster

   12534.9214+-43.8771^   1934.9295+-5.2966^ 
definitely 6.4782x faster

--

I ran the same on x86_64, and we see that for this benchmark, the
average JIT speedup is actually less than on mips:

--- v8-spider on x86_64 ---
  NoJIT  JIT


crypto  758.9786+-2.7148 ^ 83.2100+-17.1005   ^ 
definitely 9.1212x faster
deltablue  1330.8087+-149.0367   ^120.3405+-15.2389   ^ 
definitely 11.0587x faster
earley-boyer575.8073+-44.5565^ 90.5132+-15.6952   ^ 
definitely 6.3616x faster
raytrace322.8087+-8.4965 ^ 58.8531+-2.7943^ 
definitely 5.4850x faster
regexp  191.0544+-2.1591 ^131.5052+-35.2153   ^ 
definitely 1.4528x faster
richards   1439.3209+-117.4325   ^100.1944+-4.8524^ 
definitely 14.3653x faster
splay   279.3245+-7.1500 ^ 97.1257+-17.8935   ^ 
definitely 2.8759x faster

 545.4854+-13.2273^ 94.3486+-5.6174^ 
definitely 5.7816x faster

--

> 
> I realize that having a JIT is good for marketing, but it’s better to
> have a stable and well-maintained interpreter than a decrepit JIT.
>  Right now the 32-bit JIT is basically unmaintained.
> 
> 
> Indeed these platforms used to be practically abandoned in WebKit. I
> don't think that is true any more though. We've been working on fixing
> this and getting mips32 and armv7+thumb2 to pass all the tests. We have
> achieved that for mips32[1] and we are almost there for armv7[2]. I
> would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that effort.
> 
> [1] https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20MIPS32el%20Release
> [2] https://build.webkit.org/builders/
> JSCOnly%20Linux%20ARMv7%20Thumb2%20Release
> 
> 
> Passing all of the tests does not constitute stability in my book.  You need a
> lot of people using the JIT in anger for a while before you can be sure that
> you did it right.

We happen to have a lot of users on these platforms. We want to bring
their trees closer to upstream, which we think would be better for
everyone. Improving the support on these platforms can also bring more
users and help create and maintain a virtuous circle.

> 
> Also, you need to prove that the JIT is actually a progression.  Last time we
> had such a conversation, you guys had perf regressions from enabling the JIT.
>  So, use cases that needed perf would have been better off with the
> interpreter.

I 

Re: [webkit-dev] Disabling the 32-bit JITs by default.

[Filip Pizlo]

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:03 PM, Adrian Perez de Castro  wrote:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:43:38 -0600, Guillaume Emont  
> wrote:
>> Quoting Filip Pizlo (2018-02-19 13:05:27)
>>> 
 On Feb 19, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Guillaume Emont  wrote:
 
 Hi Keith,
 
 We at Igalia have been trying to provide a better story for 32-bit
 platforms, in particular for Armv7 and MIPS. These platforms are very
 important to us, and disabling JIT renders many use cases impossible.
>>> 
>>> What use cases?
>> 
>> I'm not sure of how much I can elaborate here, but in this particular
>> case that was for a set-top-box UI.
>> 
>>> I realize that having a JIT is good for marketing, but it’s better to have
>>> a stable and well-maintained interpreter than a decrepit JIT. Right now
>>> the 32-bit JIT is basically unmaintained.
> 
> *Was* basically unmaintained a few months ago.
> 
> I agree that in many cases the JIT may be a marketing point, that not every
> application benefits from it, and that some applications may be better off
> using more CPU and saving memory instead by not having the JIT. Yet many
> applications *do* work better with a JIT — otherwise we would not be having
> this discussion, and the proposal would be to completely remove the JIT
> support, for all platforms ;-)
> 
>> Indeed these platforms used to be practically abandoned in WebKit. I
>> don't think that is true any more though. We've been working on fixing
>> this and getting mips32 and armv7+thumb2 to pass all the tests. We have
>> achieved that for mips32[1] and we are almost there for armv7[2]. I
>> would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that effort.
>> 
>> [1] https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20MIPS32el%20Release
>> [2] 
>> https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20ARMv7%20Thumb2%20Release
> 
> When we took the decision at Igalia of stepping up and work on keeping the
> 32-bit JIT support alive, we had only one person available to work full-time
> with the needed knowledge.
> 
> It was lucky that Guillaume could start right away when this topic was last
> discussed, but finding more developers to work on JSC is not trivial. Some of
> us have been even chipping in now and then to review patches — sometimes in
> our free time, like my informal reviews of patches for MIPS. Now we have a
> second person who can devote time to JSC, so I would expect things to get even
> better.
> 
 We want to continue this effort to support these platforms. We have been
 short on resources for that effort, which is why we did not realize
 early enough that more mitigation was needed for 32-bit platforms. We
 now have grown our team dedicated to this and we are hopeful that we
 will avoid that kind of issue in the future.
>>> 
>>> I feel like I’ve heard this exact story before.  Every time we say that
>>> there isn’t any effort going into 32-bit, y’all say that you’ll put more
>>> effort into it Real Soon Now.  And then nothing happens, and we have the
>>> same conversation in 6 months.
>> 
>> I'm sorry it took us time to grow our team for this purpose, but that is
>> now a reality since the beginning of this month. And beside that, I
>> think you can agree that there has been significant progress on that
>> aspect, we were very far from having a green tree on mips32 about a year
>> ago, when we still had hundreds of test failures.
> 
> Also, we have been playing catch-up to get the 32-bit platforms in shape,
> without working on something more visible. This is the kind of churn that
> often goes unnoticed.
> 
 We are working on a plan to mitigate Spectre on 32-bit platforms. We
 would welcome community feedback on that, as well as what kinds of
 mitigations would be considered sufficient.
> 
> Now that you mention plans: It would be extremely useful for us to have an
> idea of what's the JSC roadmap for the next few months. Being on the same page
> in this regard would allow us all to coordinate better, and better plan the
> focus of work on our side.

Our roadmap is to remove 32-bit JITs and to remove JSVALUE32_64, and then have 
32-bit platforms compile cloop with JSVALUE64.

> 
 Regarding your patch, I think you should note that some specific 32-bit
 CPUs are immune to Spectre (at least the Raspberry Pi[1] and some
 MIPS[2] devices), I think the deactivation should be done at run-time
 for CPUs not on a white list.
>>> 
>>> Keith’s main point is that the presence of 32-bit makes it harder to
>>> implement mitigations for 64-bit. I don’t think it’s justifiable to hold
>>> back development of 64-bit Spectre mitigations because of a hardly-used
>>> and mostly-broken 32-bit JIT port that will be maintained by someone Real
>>> Soon Now.
> 
> Could you provide a concrete example of a mitigation for 64-bit platforms that
> would not be possible unless the code for 32-bit JIT support is 

Re: [webkit-dev] Disabling the 32-bit JITs by default.

[Filip Pizlo]

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:43 AM, Guillaume Emont  wrote:
> 
> Quoting Filip Pizlo (2018-02-19 13:05:27)
>> 
>>> On Feb 19, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Guillaume Emont  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Keith,
>>> 
>>> We at Igalia have been trying to provide a better story for 32-bit
>>> platforms, in particular for Armv7 and MIPS. These platforms are very
>>> important to us, and disabling JIT renders many use cases impossible.
>> 
>> What use cases?
> 
> I'm not sure of how much I can elaborate here, but in this particular
> case that was for a set-top-box UI.

I bet that this doesn’t need a JIT.

If you want me to believe that it does, you need to show perf numbers.

> 
>> 
>> I realize that having a JIT is good for marketing, but it’s better to have a 
>> stable and well-maintained interpreter than a decrepit JIT.  Right now the 
>> 32-bit JIT is basically unmaintained.
> 
> Indeed these platforms used to be practically abandoned in WebKit. I
> don't think that is true any more though. We've been working on fixing
> this and getting mips32 and armv7+thumb2 to pass all the tests. We have
> achieved that for mips32[1] and we are almost there for armv7[2]. I
> would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that effort.
> 
> [1] https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20MIPS32el%20Release
> [2] 
> https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20ARMv7%20Thumb2%20Release 
> 

Passing all of the tests does not constitute stability in my book.  You need a 
lot of people using the JIT in anger for a while before you can be sure that 
you did it right.

Also, you need to prove that the JIT is actually a progression.  Last time we 
had such a conversation, you guys had perf regressions from enabling the JIT.  
So, use cases that needed perf would have been better off with the interpreter.

> 
>> 
>>> We
>>> want to continue this effort to support these platforms. We have been
>>> short on resources for that effort, which is why we did not realize
>>> early enough that more mitigation was needed for 32-bit platforms. We
>>> now have grown our team dedicated to this and we are hopeful that we
>>> will avoid that kind of issue in the future.
>> 
>> I feel like I’ve heard this exact story before.  Every time we say that 
>> there isn’t any effort going into 32-bit, y’all say that you’ll put more 
>> effort into it Real Soon Now.  And then nothing happens, and we have the 
>> same conversation in 6 months.
> 
> I'm sorry it took us time to grow our team for this purpose, but that is
> now a reality since the beginning of this month.

I’ve heard this before.

> And beside that, I
> think you can agree that there has been significant progress on that
> aspect, we were very far from having a green tree on mips32 about a year
> ago, when we still had hundreds of test failures.

I don’t agree that there has been significant progress.  The level of 
maintenance going into those JITs is a rounding error compared to how much work 
is done on ARM64 and x86_64.

-Filip


> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> We are working on a plan to mitigate Spectre on 32-bit platforms. We
>>> would welcome community feedback on that, as well as what kinds of
>>> mitigations would be considered sufficient.
>>> 
>>> Regarding your patch, I think you should note that some specific 32-bit
>>> CPUs are immune to Spectre (at least the Raspberry Pi[1] and some
>>> MIPS[2] devices), I think the deactivation should be done at run-time
>>> for CPUs not on a white list.
>> 
>> Keith’s main point is that the presence of 32-bit makes it harder to 
>> implement mitigations for 64-bit.  I don’t think it’s justifiable to hold 
>> back development of 64-bit Spectre mitigations because of a hardly-used and 
>> mostly-broken 32-bit JIT port that will be maintained by someone Real Soon 
>> Now.
> 
> I can't answer to that as I don't know enough what is hindering these
> mitigations exactly.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Guillaume

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Re: [webkit-dev] Disabling the 32-bit JITs by default.

[Guillaume Emont]

Quoting Filip Pizlo (2018-02-19 13:05:27)
> 
> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Guillaume Emont  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Keith,
> > 
> > We at Igalia have been trying to provide a better story for 32-bit
> > platforms, in particular for Armv7 and MIPS. These platforms are very
> > important to us, and disabling JIT renders many use cases impossible.
> 
> What use cases?

I'm not sure of how much I can elaborate here, but in this particular
case that was for a set-top-box UI.

> 
> I realize that having a JIT is good for marketing, but it’s better to have a 
> stable and well-maintained interpreter than a decrepit JIT.  Right now the 
> 32-bit JIT is basically unmaintained.

Indeed these platforms used to be practically abandoned in WebKit. I
don't think that is true any more though. We've been working on fixing
this and getting mips32 and armv7+thumb2 to pass all the tests. We have
achieved that for mips32[1] and we are almost there for armv7[2]. I
would appreciate it if you could acknowledge that effort.

[1] https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20MIPS32el%20Release
[2] https://build.webkit.org/builders/JSCOnly%20Linux%20ARMv7%20Thumb2%20Release

> 
> > We
> > want to continue this effort to support these platforms. We have been
> > short on resources for that effort, which is why we did not realize
> > early enough that more mitigation was needed for 32-bit platforms. We
> > now have grown our team dedicated to this and we are hopeful that we
> > will avoid that kind of issue in the future.
> 
> I feel like I’ve heard this exact story before.  Every time we say that there 
> isn’t any effort going into 32-bit, y’all say that you’ll put more effort 
> into it Real Soon Now.  And then nothing happens, and we have the same 
> conversation in 6 months.

I'm sorry it took us time to grow our team for this purpose, but that is
now a reality since the beginning of this month. And beside that, I
think you can agree that there has been significant progress on that
aspect, we were very far from having a green tree on mips32 about a year
ago, when we still had hundreds of test failures.

> 
> > 
> > We are working on a plan to mitigate Spectre on 32-bit platforms. We
> > would welcome community feedback on that, as well as what kinds of
> > mitigations would be considered sufficient.
> > 
> > Regarding your patch, I think you should note that some specific 32-bit
> > CPUs are immune to Spectre (at least the Raspberry Pi[1] and some
> > MIPS[2] devices), I think the deactivation should be done at run-time
> > for CPUs not on a white list.
> 
> Keith’s main point is that the presence of 32-bit makes it harder to 
> implement mitigations for 64-bit.  I don’t think it’s justifiable to hold 
> back development of 64-bit Spectre mitigations because of a hardly-used and 
> mostly-broken 32-bit JIT port that will be maintained by someone Real Soon 
> Now.

I can't answer to that as I don't know enough what is hindering these
mitigations exactly.


Best regards,

Guillaume
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Re: [webkit-dev] Disabling the 32-bit JITs by default.

[Filip Pizlo]

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Guillaume Emont  wrote:
> 
> Hi Keith,
> 
> We at Igalia have been trying to provide a better story for 32-bit
> platforms, in particular for Armv7 and MIPS. These platforms are very
> important to us, and disabling JIT renders many use cases impossible.

What use cases?

I realize that having a JIT is good for marketing, but it’s better to have a 
stable and well-maintained interpreter than a decrepit JIT.  Right now the 
32-bit JIT is basically unmaintained.

> We
> want to continue this effort to support these platforms. We have been
> short on resources for that effort, which is why we did not realize
> early enough that more mitigation was needed for 32-bit platforms. We
> now have grown our team dedicated to this and we are hopeful that we
> will avoid that kind of issue in the future.

I feel like I’ve heard this exact story before.  Every time we say that there 
isn’t any effort going into 32-bit, y’all say that you’ll put more effort into 
it Real Soon Now.  And then nothing happens, and we have the same conversation 
in 6 months.

> 
> We are working on a plan to mitigate Spectre on 32-bit platforms. We
> would welcome community feedback on that, as well as what kinds of
> mitigations would be considered sufficient.
> 
> Regarding your patch, I think you should note that some specific 32-bit
> CPUs are immune to Spectre (at least the Raspberry Pi[1] and some
> MIPS[2] devices), I think the deactivation should be done at run-time
> for CPUs not on a white list.

Keith’s main point is that the presence of 32-bit makes it harder to implement 
mitigations for 64-bit.  I don’t think it’s justifiable to hold back 
development of 64-bit Spectre mitigations because of a hardly-used and 
mostly-broken 32-bit JIT port that will be maintained by someone Real Soon Now.

-Filip


> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Guilaume Emont and the Igalia compilers team
> 
> [1] 
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/why-raspberry-pi-isnt-vulnerable-to-spectre-or-meltdown/
> [2] 
> https://www.mips.com/blog/mips-response-on-speculative-execution-and-side-channel-vulnerabilities/
> 
> Quoting Keith Miller (2018-02-16 16:58:07)
>> I recently created a patch to disable the 32-bit JITs by default. 
>> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182886. 
>> 
>> The last time this was discussed was before the discovery of Spectre. In the 
>> interim, there have been a number of changes made to JavaScriptCore in an 
>> attempt to mitigate Spectre. Nobody has proposed a mitigation plan for 
>> 32-bit WebKit. For example, pointer poisoning only works for 64-bit 
>> processors as they currently have a number of high bits that will never be 
>> set in a valid pointer. In 32-bit code the full address space is mappable so 
>> pointer poisoning is not guaranteed to be effective.
>> 
>> Given the importance of developing mitigations for Spectre in a timely 
>> manner I think we should disable 32-bit JITs, in the near term, but more 
>> likely permanently.
>> 
>> Thoughts?
>> Keith
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