Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hello Drew, drew wrote on 2011-01-19 20.59: Guys I have my problems with decisions made by the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough, which I will pass on to them in a private email. as I didn't receive a private mail from you, I guess it doesn't concern me. Anyways, as a member of the SC and dedicated to working on our community, I would be really interested what brought you to this sad decision. I would be happy if we could follow-up via private e-mail. I think ranting, leaving and not communicating on the right channels are the main problems a community can face, so let's work together, united, on what we all want to achieve... Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Empty e-mail? ;) drew wrote on 2011-01-20 14.43: On Thu, 2011-01-20 at 14:13 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote: on what we all want to achieve... -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On Thu, 2011-01-20 at 14:44 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote: Empty e-mail? ;) hmm - should have been drew wrote on 2011-01-20 14.43: On Thu, 2011-01-20 at 14:13 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote: on what we all want to achieve... +1 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
:-) drew wrote on 2011-01-20 14.54: On Thu, 2011-01-20 at 14:44 +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote: Empty e-mail? ;) hmm - should have been drew wrote on 2011-01-20 14.43: +1 -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 01/19/2011 05:04 AM, Marc Paré wrote: This kind of reasoning however would seem to promote communities built on regions rather than one whole community. This would then make for a good case of having country based communities with their own set of website tools. Marc, it is not a resoning, it is a fact. It was told several times that TDF is the natural evolution of the OOo community, which in some geographies is very strong and organized. In order to grow further the community we must consider this fact, and choose a path that brings together the old and the new. During the last ten years, all kind of mistakes has already been made and one of these mistakes was to force everyone into a single central infrastructure (CollabNet). The history shows that the strongest communities inside the OOo ecosystem are those that have been able to organize independently. And history is seldom wrong. Of course, trying to evolve into a more coordinated community makes a lot of sense, but you do not evolve if you try to make a U turn in respect to the previous path. I think that a basic misunderstanding was due to the fact that the website team was new to the community and has not listened to the past experience, and the old members of the community have overlooked the problem (and made wrong assumptions). Would it not make more sense to have a central point, LibreOffice.org, where upon landing you are directed to your region? Is this not what we are doing already? Sometimes, what makes sense for a group is not what makes sense for everyone. In Italy, the community is called Associazione PLIO (I am the President) and is not going to change the name now because there are 6 years of history behind it. We have a web site (based on Drupal) and other tools which are already in place. The Italian newsgroup, totally independent, is the best support resource. They are even producing a 3.000 pages FAQ updated at the end of every month. They want to stay independent, and I am not even going to ask them to switch from their infrastructure to a central one under LibreOffice umbrella. Maybe, this does not makes sense, but this works like a charm. Has anyone considered that perhaps this is another step in LibreOffice's coming of age? Perhaps centralizing the communication tools and working on a common membership will make it stronger? There is still room for individuality even when in a large group. Perhaps this is where the membership will find it's strength. Communities are tricky, and international communities are trickier. Again, there are ten years of history behind our shoulders. We want to evolve, not revolve. Evolution is slower, and based on consensus. The preferred tools can still be offered up to the groups from a central point as well. The problem is that there are groups that want to stay independent. Look at ODFAuthors. Perhaps speaking as on common LibreOffice voice rather than different LibreOffice groups will give us more strength. Perhaps, rather than gaining 20% of market share, a common membership approach will give us a larger share of the market? I do not know. Maybe yes, maybe not. The fact is that independence has been a key factor for the success of the community is some geographies, and this cannot be ignored. Any departure from this fact should be carefully evaluated. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Please stand by. David and myself are organising a regroup of the website team in the form of a Conference Call. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Marc, *, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Le 2011-01-18 17:57, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : [...] As you say, people were not listening to each other. As a LibO member who did participate on the Drupal team and helped organise it under the impression that, clearly, the SC had given us the go ahead with the possibility of moving on to the Drupal CMS within 6 months. Yes, the possibility. The proposal put to the membership by the Drupal group was that Drupal would act more as a hub offering windows to the various LibO communities. Somehow this also got lost in the disinformation that was being passed around. Yes, as the impression is that the drupal group would like to force everything into the drupal-infrastructure. LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot just throw that all away and force it all into drupal. So, would you be OK with having a Drupal site acting as a hub directing traffic to the different sites? This is then the question. Would it not be more impressive to have people think that we are a whole community? I do not get the idea why for this to work you need to force everything into a drupal-driven tool. Would it not be more advantageous to find all of the connections in one spot? Would not this give us all a sense of community? Finding all in one spot is completely different in telling people. Sorry, you won't be using the tools you've been working with anymore, since drupal got this shiny nice module that surely is superior This is the message that was received. Maybe not what was intended, but this is at least my impression. Yes, the urgent need for content. Unfortunately, the Silverstripe team had, at the time, assured the SC that the site would be up and running in a matter a few weeks. Again you're twisting facts, just like Michael. So a history lessen of the situation at the time: The Drupal-proposal sites were all *NON FUNCTIONAL*, they sucked regarding the inbuilt editor, they sucked in *BASIC* functionality. While silverstripe was ready to be used. At no time I or anyone else had made a claim about creating the content itself. The statement was always Allow people to start working on it. And yes, I also was disappointed that there have not been people who were eager waiting to providing the content, there my (and other people's) impression was wrong. But don't claim that silverstripe-team promised a complete site! We were led to believe that all of the site would just be available to all for use in so little time. For use, yes, and that really was a matter of days to setup the DNS-entry and silverstripe was up and running (at the test.libreoffice.org location at the time). From that point on it was ready to use, working. What was not said, is that, in fact, the Silverstripe had not prepared any IA or any sort of planning You are a liar, and that more or less represent the communication style of the drupal-team as a whole. Those who voice their opinion twist the facts at their will. for the actual web development and that it would be done on a first come first serve meritocratic way. Unfortunately, it was, and still is, quite difficult to find any members experienced enough in Silverstripe Again complete bullshit. You can count the problem reports with silverstripe people posted to the list with your fingers. You don't need to have experience with silverstripe to provide content. There is no need for experienced silverstripe people because there is no need of fancy features yet. As for adding content, well, why was this not planned when the SC was assured that the site would be ready within a short time frame? So, the excuse for having no content for the Silverstripe site is that the Drupal team were being too organised or that they were negligent in providing content? I would find it strange that for some reason, ALL of the content contributors were on the Drupal side? Then why was Silverstripe chosen? AGAIN: Silverstripe was *ready to use*. Drupal sites at the time *DID SUCK*. All there was was there are modules for drupal, and once you configure it it won't suck. This did go on for weeks, without anybody installing those modules, configuring the drupal site (remember, there were four different drupal demo sites at the time, and *NONE* featured a working editor. *NONE* offered an easy way to insert links to another page on the same site, etc. Despite all the people knowing drupal, despite all the people dealing with drupal for their living. /*THIS*/ is what made the SC made their decision. People need a tool that /works/, not a system that /works once it is configured/. And it isn't enough to assure you can do it, thousands of sites are running with drupal, drupal is great, bla bla. If you cannot get the basics to
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure. Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough. What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good for anyone that can come from this. Please just let it go. Sincerely, Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Christian: Le 2011-01-19 10:04, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : Hi Marc, *, On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 4:39 AM, Marc Parém...@marcpare.com wrote: Le 2011-01-18 17:57, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : [...] As you say, people were not listening to each other. As a LibO member who did participate on the Drupal team and helped organise it under the impression that, clearly, the SC had given us the go ahead with the possibility of moving on to the Drupal CMS within 6 months. Yes, the possibility. The proposal put to the membership by the Drupal group was that Drupal would act more as a hub offering windows to the various LibO communities. Somehow this also got lost in the disinformation that was being passed around. Yes, as the impression is that the drupal group would like to force everything into the drupal-infrastructure. Well, this was the wrong impression as we often times offered specific Drupal tools but also affirmed that working closely with all stakeholders was our main objective. LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot just throw that all away and force it all into drupal. So, would you be OK with having a Drupal site acting as a hub directing traffic to the different sites? This is then the question. Would it not be more impressive to have people think that we are a whole community? I do not get the idea why for this to work you need to force everything into a drupal-driven tool. My intent here with my statement was to show that the Drupal site could have provided itself more as a hub to the outside communities, contrary to the information that others were saying that, as you say, the need to force everything into a Drupal-drivfen tool. The Drupal site would have been used no more and no less than what Silverstripe is trying to achieve today, of sending people to their different communities. The only difference being that users/visitors to the site would have the distinct impression that of a LibreOffice family. Would it not be more advantageous to find all of the connections in one spot? Would not this give us all a sense of community? Finding all in one spot is completely different in telling people. Sorry, you won't be using the tools you've been working with anymore, since drupal got this shiny nice module that surely is superior This is the message that was received. Maybe not what was intended, but this is at least my impression. Remember that we were led to believe that we were told on the website membership list that the Silverstripe first then migration within 6 months to Drupal. We were letting the membership know of certain modules. We were being open and transparent and the modules were up for discussion, with implementation on the Drupal site for testing. Yes, the urgent need for content. Unfortunately, the Silverstripe team had, at the time, assured the SC that the site would be up and running in a matter a few weeks. Again you're twisting facts, just like Michael. So a history lessen of the situation at the time: The Drupal-proposal sites were all *NON FUNCTIONAL*, they sucked regarding the inbuilt editor, they sucked in *BASIC* functionality. While silverstripe was ready to be used. At no time I or anyone else had made a claim about creating the content itself. The statement was always Allow people to start working on it. And yes, I also was disappointed that there have not been people who were eager waiting to providing the content, there my (and other people's) impression was wrong. But don't claim that silverstripe-team promised a complete site! Then yes, we did misunderstand the Silverstripe approach. You then delivered a functional working site. The Drupal team had plans on involving people with content. I guess we had a more holistic approach to website building. There were offers from a couple of Drupal devs with ongoing mentoring/facilitating help for contributors and the use of the Drupal site modules. We were led to believe that all of the site would just be available to all for use in so little time. For use, yes, and that really was a matter of days to setup the DNS-entry and silverstripe was up and running (at the test.libreoffice.org location at the time). From that point on it was ready to use, working. What was not said, is that, in fact, the Silverstripe had not prepared any IA or any sort of planning You are a liar, and that more or less represent the communication style of the drupal-team as a whole. Those who voice their opinion twist the facts at their will. Thanks then, could you point me to the pages that we had asked for on the website list? There must be a place where we can all see the Silverstripe plans for us to see. If the website membership had seen that there were no plans for content then perhaps we could have
[libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Le 2011-01-19 10:28, drew a écrit : This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure. Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough. What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good for anyone that can come from this. Please just let it go. Sincerely, Drew Thanks for the the advice. It has now stopped. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi *, first apologies for the harsh words in the previous mail - but I was really angry to see the same wrong statements over and over again. On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com wrote: Le 2011-01-19 10:04, Christian Lohmaier a écrit : [...] There is no need for experienced silverstripe people because there is no need of fancy features yet. Sorry, I just thought that experienced Silverstripe people would be lending a hand at helping the content contributors manage and work out the formatting of their sites. Surely there is: But people don't need help. At least they did not request any. The only stuff where I had to help out with silverstripe-specific stuff is with translating the automatically generated pages like the download page, or the go to the xy page hover-titles. The slovenian team did make most use of this up to now. But there have been no requests regarding I need this or that style, I would like to do this or that that was specific to silverstripe. Minor bugs in the theme were reported and fixed along the way, but that's not a matter of the CMS, but with the CSS. So you don't need a team of experts in running silverstripe. How many Silverstripe people do we have to help out? Is there anyone on the Silverstripe actively helping NL content contributors so that their sites look good at first landing? Well - this list is the point of contact - so when a team has problems, I expect they would ask for help. So no, there is no hand-holding them, as I don't think it is necessary. The biggest problem people have is finding the registration URL (that is hidden on purpose) [...] I also believe that another member had commented that going about it this way, deleting contributor content without consultation, would perhaps dissuade more contribution. Yes, this was when David did jump in because after weeks after the SC's decision to go with silverstripe first (and thus weeks after the site was available for use on test.libreoffice.org) there was no visible progress on the content, despite the many requests for help on the list as well as in the conf-calls. David took his two-weeks effort to put content on the site all by himself basically, and yes, during that time he overhauled the site completely, did remove some of the stub sites other people had created in the meantime and indeed this irritated and also made a few angry. But in the end they understood the need for this. Again the same FUD again and again. Yes, Drupal is great, but within nearly two months (during the CMS requirements phase), all those knowledgeable people didn't manage to create something usable. That's why SC did vote to go with Silverstripe, with the possibility to revisit drupal a couple of months later. But instead of providing a working site with the basics, Drupal team started their we conquer the world crusade and that lead to the current statement to get a grip of the priorities that matter. I think if you re-read the start of the CMS search for LibO, you will find that your answers to anyone making reference with Drupal was met with a negative tone from you. Yes. Because I was always asking: Please show me a site where it works. And people did just respond: Drupal is cool, has so many modules, you just have to configure it properly. Then I went again: But look, the editor on your demo doesn't even allow to create tables or links to other sites on the same page. And the reply again was. Drupal is great, it can do this and much more, there are lots of people using it, you just need to configure it properly And this in an endless iteration. Feel free to re-read your posts. You had discounted Drupal right from the start. No. I wanted to see it in action, as the demos that were available did suck. It is like that. The editor didn't provide even the most basic functionality. But people were praising drupal for its great features and you-can-do-anything-if-you-configure-it. But nobody did configure it. Instead four different drupal demo sites were setup, instead of working on one drupal site and turn that into a usable demo. So yes, I was negative about drupal from the very start, since what I saw didn't convince me at all. There were pepple earning money with drupal that praised drupal, but those people did hide behind I have no time. And again: It wasn't much functionality I asked for. That's basically where Drupal folkd don't listen started. It seems to me that most groups would want to look for a CMS that best fits their needs, consult with their membership (in this case our website membership) and test-try collaboratively different CMS sites to see how well they work and fit with the community project. Sorry, but this is exactly what was done and suggested. I *asked* for demo sites that demonstrate the functionality. But the public (official, at least linked from the drupal site) demo did suck big time, as did those who were created by volunteers. And it
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Sorry - I really need to make one edit to my last email: On Wed, 2011-01-19 at 10:28 -0500, drew wrote: Guys I have my problems with decisions made by the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough, which I will pass on to them in a private email. - last mail to to this list and this one will need to be moderated it. //drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:58 AM, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: This email is to the Drupal team, who all that is I am not sure. Guys I have my problems with the SC members and I am leaving because of it, perhaps not quick enough. What you guys are talking about now however is just wrong - you need to stop, no more discussions, just stop and walk away - there is no good for anyone that can come from this. Please just let it go. Sincerely, Drew Drew, David and myself are organising the inaugural phone conference for the website team. Clearly there are people, including yourself who wish to contribute some amazing ideas and developments to the LibreOffice project. We hope that this Conference call will clear the way for effective collaboration and build some trust between all of the members involved. Communication is key, and we are all working towards the same goals. I encourage you to attend or even just listen to the conference call to ease your mind and hopefully get you back on board. Thanks, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi, :-) Wow! What a debate! I second what Michael has just posted. Everyone interested in working on the libreoffice.org website, and in discussing ideas about website team organization, and in examining possible proposals to develop for submission to the SC should be there at the website team conference call. My hope is that we are going to move forward past the stage of recriminations, and look forward to how to organize ourselves and communicate better in the future. But I'd just like to post something that I just wrote in another thread: There is going to be a challenging process of arbitration and mindset education between the website team and the SC, and I'm under no illusion that we'll succeed in consensus between everyone. We are going to going to have to establish exactly where the role of the website team really starts and ends. It's going to be important to remember that the website team is there to service the LibreOffice project's website needs, and that it is not there to become a separate community by itself, nor to take on the roles of other areas of the project such as marketing and SC/BoD policy-making. People who want to influence those areas of the project are going to have to actively involve themselves in those particular teams. But I think the website team can also learn to communicate more successfully and to raise awareness about the opportunities for community cultivation and building that can be offered by an innovative Web presence. And we would have to be able to tangibly demonstrate those opportunities, which is might require a certain amount of work done on a purely-prospective basis, with no guarantee of actual uptake. Meritocracy and overall consensus will have to be respected. Patience and a degree of far-sightedness will be necessary, as will the ability to accept compromise. Adhesion to the LibreOffice project's overall goals is needed from every member if we are to be part of a peaceful, successful community. But I do believe that we can arrive at solutions that take account of reasonable wishes and ambitions. All the above is my personal 2 cents. We'll have plenty to talk about. I think all the above has relevance for the preceding discussion in this thread. David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Charles, *, On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: On 2011-01-15 4:41 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote: I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future, it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work. +100 The integration of mail list forums newsgroups alone is worth using Drupal, assuming of course that it can indeed be accomplished as Michael described... And this attitude/point of view towards it surely was one of the reasons for the SC to be so drastic about its statement. You must not force people into a single infrastructure. There is no need to force everything into drupal. I hardly see any benefit of having mailinglist or forums covered by drupal itself. The problem is not drupal the technology, but that people were not listening to each other. That really is the biggest problem. The impression people got is that drupal team is only interested in pushing drupal, not in how community works. You cannot force people to use whatever feature just because it is available in future when people have been using another solution for years that just fits their needs. Sophie (as member of the SC) and others did attempt several times to point this out, but basically it always continued like that. LO does not start completely from scratch. It has 10 years of history it shares with the OpenOffice.org project. During that time, various ways of collaboration have formed, various tools are used. You cannot just throw that all away and force it all into drupal. Also it was stressed many times that we urgently need a website with content, a css theme, etc. But instead on working on a theme together, drupal just did their own in the backyard - and then that in turn led to the situation where David and very few others had to do it all by themselves, under quite a bit of time pressure. And the frustrating part about it was that while there were many requests for help please provide content, please help with the theme there was no feedback, no help offers, but instead one had to read tada - look at our beautiful drupal theme, or we got great plans, we envision whatever. So in fact SC's statement comes much too late. But then again: Drupal is not dead at all - it should just be clear that the primary focus must be the site that is public for the user. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 2011-01-18 5:57 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: And this attitude/point of view towards it surely was one of the reasons for the SC to be so drastic about its statement. You must not force people into a single infrastructure. There is no need to force everything into drupal. I hardly see any benefit of having mailinglist or forums covered by drupal itself. Seriously? You don't see the benefit of having fully integrated support backend, such that someone can choose to use the forums, or email lists, or newsgroups, and everyone sees the same 'content'? Anyway, maybe Drupal could simply be leveraged as the *support* backend - that being one of the weakest links in the OOo chain ever since I can remember. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 01/18/2011 11:57 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: But then again: Drupal is not dead at all - it should just be clear that the primary focus must be the site that is public for the user. I have read many threads in the website mailing list, and I must say that I have found many areas where the discussion has gone in the wrong direction. For instance, the 23 roles were assuming that the web site would become the entry point for the community, which is something that cannot happen as every individual has the right to choose his preferred way of interacting with the project (and this has always happened). For instance, if I had to go through a web site to discover my way into the community I would have never been a OOo advocate. Assuming that this was the right development direction has been a mistake. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 01/19/2011 12:11 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: Seriously? You don't see the benefit of having fully integrated support backend, such that someone can choose to use the forums, or email lists, or newsgroups, and everyone sees the same 'content'? Yes, seriously. In Italy, there are mailing lists, newsgroups and forums and each user is choosing his preferred tool and everything works so well that OOo has over 20% market share (and growing). The mailing lists and the forum are the official ones, while the newsgroup is independent (and will never accept to be affiliated with any project, and I will never ask them to). The integration is done at moderators level (informally) and works like a charm. Anyway, maybe Drupal could simply be leveraged as the *support* backend - that being one of the weakest links in the OOo chain ever since I can remember. The weakest link in the OOo ecosystem is the community, where there is not a community. Where there is a community, support is one of the strengths of OOo. Unfortunately, the English speaking community is one of the weakest and so is English support. -- Italo Vignoli - The Document Foundation E-mail: italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org Mobile +39.348.5653829 - VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli - GTalk: italo.vign...@gmail.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Hi Italo: Le 2011-01-18 18:25, Italo Vignoli a écrit : On 01/19/2011 12:11 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: Seriously? You don't see the benefit of having fully integrated support backend, such that someone can choose to use the forums, or email lists, or newsgroups, and everyone sees the same 'content'? Yes, seriously. In Italy, there are mailing lists, newsgroups and forums and each user is choosing his preferred tool and everything works so well that OOo has over 20% market share (and growing). The mailing lists and the forum are the official ones, while the newsgroup is independent (and will never accept to be affiliated with any project, and I will never ask them to). The integration is done at moderators level (informally) and works like a charm. Anyway, maybe Drupal could simply be leveraged as the *support* backend - that being one of the weakest links in the OOo chain ever since I can remember. The weakest link in the OOo ecosystem is the community, where there is not a community. Where there is a community, support is one of the strengths of OOo. Unfortunately, the English speaking community is one of the weakest and so is English support. This kind of reasoning however would seem to promote communities built on regions rather than one whole community. This would then make for a good case of having country based communities with their own set of website tools. Would it not make more sense to have a central point, LibreOffice.org, where upon landing you are directed to your region? Is this not what we are doing already? Has anyone considered that perhaps this is another step in LibreOffice's coming of age? Perhaps centralizing the communication tools and working on a common membership will make it stronger? There is still room for individuality even when in a large group. Perhaps this is where the membership will find it's strength. The preferred tools can still be offered up to the groups from a central point as well. Perhaps speaking as on common LibreOffice voice rather than different LibreOffice groups will give us more strength. Perhaps, rather than gaining 20% of market share, a common membership approach will give us a larger share of the market? Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On 2011-01-15 4:41 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote: I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future, it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work. +100 The integration of mail list forums newsgroups alone is worth using Drupal, assuming of course that it can indeed be accomplished as Michael described... Michael, I'm sure all of your hard work won't be wasted, hang in there... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: On 2011-01-15 4:41 AM, Alexander Thurgood wrote: I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future, it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work. +100 The integration of mail list forums newsgroups alone is worth using Drupal, assuming of course that it can indeed be accomplished as Michael described... Michael, I'm sure all of your hard work won't be wasted, hang in there... I would love to contribute to a brighter future for this project. I am however getting the feeling that the establishment of this project is less of a step forward for community coordination and governance than I was expecting. The consultation process with the website mailing list and website team members when establishing the Group of four was non-existent. In fact I have seen a shout out to the documentation mailing list for new contributors for the website, while there are already members poised to help if consultation and coordination occurs, as we have seen with the Drupal development. I believe that ignoring and belittling this large contributor base is mis-management of the website team by the Steering Committee, and that these active members can be utilised given the right leaders. I sincerely hope that my impression is incorrect, and will remain subscribed to the mailing lists and waiting to see the establishment of the membership committee and some forward thinkers elected to the Board and Engineering Steering Committee. I appreciate all of the public and private support that much of the Drupal team and myself have received, Everyone has done an amazing job. It is now in the SCs hands to allow the website team to work collaboratively and constructively in a grass roots 'open' way, rather than dictating what the website team 'will do' and designating leaders. Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
Le 14/01/11 18:26, Michael Wheatland a écrit : FWIW, and I've said this already, but I'll say it again, I really like the design of the Drupal-based site that you and your team have created. It is clear, easy to navigate and modern, but then I guess such things are more a question of subjective taste than objectivity, since I have no idea how much overhead it takes to keep such a site maintained and evolving, nor even to populate with content. It certainly seems very modular. I would sincerely hope that this would not disappear in the near future, it would in my humble opinion, be a great shame to lose all that work. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [Drupal] The road ahead and missed opportunities
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2011-01-13 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
