Re: [Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging

2019-11-27 Thread Laurence Marks
As Peter has already responded, TETRA is not appropriate for 2D structures.
You got away with it without SOC, as that exactly solves the eigenproblem
for RKMAX etc. However, SOC uses the finite set of lapw1 eigenvectors.
There will therefore be something similar to telegraph noise as which
eigenvectors are used changes with iterations. This leads to
ill-conditioning which is amplified by the use of TETRA which I suspect can
also introduce something similar to telegraph noise. The total conditioning
of a particular case is a product of the condition numbers of different
parts. As nband--> infinity the SOC calculation should be better
conditioned.

Small values of Beta and the total step are clear indicators that the
problem is ill-conditioned. I would guesstimate that values smaller than
0.5 are an indicator of ill-conditioning if they persist; an occasional
value is OK. Small GREED may also be an indicator of problems, particularly
near convergence. However, GREED is more complicated and can legitimately
be small far from the fixed-point solution.

Wikipedia seems to have a reasonable page,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condition_number . I have never tried to
calculate these for different parts of Wien2k, my understanding is somewhat
empirical experience. Peter has more experience so has a better feel,
although I am not sure he has ever tried to actually calculate the numbers.
(A good project for someone.)

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 9:54 AM Luigi Maduro - TNW 
wrote:

> I am using WIEN2k_19.1 and Using grep MULTISECANT *.scfm I get the
> following:
>
>
>
> * MULTISECANT MIXING VER9 RELEASE 10.4.0
>
>
>
> For the input of the SCF calculation with SOC the output of a SCF
> calculation without SOC was used (with TETRA). For the SCF calculation with
> SOC the following criteria were used: RKmax = 7.0, 21 k-points in IBZ,
> charge convergence of 0.001e and energy convergence of 0.0001 Ry. These are
> the same criteria as the original SCF calculation without SOC.
>
>
> If I understood correctly, then looking at the size GREED and Beta should
> be sufficient for determining if the calculation has converged, if so then
> how small is too small for these parameters?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Laurence Marks [mailto:laurence.ma...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* dinsdag 26 november 2019 18:19
> *To:* A Mailing list for WIEN2k users
> *Cc:* Luigi Maduro - TNW
> *Subject:* Re: [Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging
>
>
>
> What version of Wien2k are you using, particularly the mixer (grep
> MULTISECANT *.scfm)?
>
>
>
> Your calculations are "starving to death". The step size is so small (both
> the GREED and Beta) that it is bouncing around on numerical noise. It may
> well have already converged to the limits of the noise/conditioning in your
> calculation, which is linked to RKMAX and the k-mesh and also (Peter's
> response) from TETRA. The iterative diagonalizations also introduce some
> noise.
>
>
>
> For the specific case I would remove the prior history (rm *.broyd*) and
> continue it.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 11:01 AM Luigi Maduro - TNW 
> wrote:
>
> Hello Laurence,
>
>
>
> This is the result I get when using Check-mixing (this is with the
> thinnest slab model, and using SCALA with Emax = 10.0 Ry)
>
>
>
>
>
> :DIRQ :  |MSR1|= 1.472E-06 |PRATT|= 3.852E-03 ANGLE=  79.0 DEGREES
>
> :DIRT :  |MSR1|= 1.516E-06 |PRATT|= 4.100E-03 ANGLE=  79.2 DEGREES
>
> :MIX  :   MSE1   REGULARIZATION:  9.15E-04 GREED: 0.00200  Newton 1.00
> 0.0004
>
> :ENE  : ** TOTAL ENERGY IN Ry =   -58196.30065156
>
> :DIS  :  CHARGE DISTANCE   ( 0.0046033 for atom7 spin 1)
> 0.0009683
>
> :PLANE:  PW TOTAL  6.0026 DISTAN   3.20E-03  5.33E-02 %
>
> :CHARG:  CLM/ATOM 74.0417 DISTAN   5.58E-04  7.54E-04 %
>
> :RANK :  ACTIVE  14.44/16 =  90.26 % ; YY RANK  14.44/16 =  90.25 %
>
> :DIRM :  MEMORY 16/12 SCALE   1.000 RED  2.57 PRED  0.95 NEXT  0.95 BETA
> 0.05
>
> :DIRP :  |MSR1|= 1.024E-06 |PRATT|= 3.198E-03 ANGLE= 102.9 DEGREES
>
> :DIRQ :  |MSR1|= 4.046E-06 |PRATT|= 1.005E-02 ANGLE=  82.5 DEGREES
>
> :DIRT :  |MSR1|= 4.174E-06 |PRATT|= 1.054E-02 ANGLE=  84.0 DEGREES
>
> :MIX  :   MSE1   REGULARIZATION:  1.33E-03 GREED: 0.00500  Newton 1.00
> 0.0004
>
> :ENE  : ** TOTAL ENERGY IN Ry =   -58196.30346394
>
> :DIS  :  CHARGE DISTANCE   ( 0.0012891 for atom8 spin 1)
> 0.0002073
>
> :PLANE:  PW TOTAL  6.0026 DISTAN   1.51E-03  2.51E-02 %
>
> :CHARG:  CLM/ATOM 74.0417 DISTAN   2.13E-04  2.88E-04 %
>
> :RANK :  ACTIVE  15.31/16 =  95.68 % ; YY RANK  15.31/16 =  95.72 %
>
> :DIRM :  MEMORY 16/12 SCALE   1.000 RED  0.39 PRED  0.95 NEXT  0.95 BETA
> 0.05
&

Re: [Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging

2019-11-26 Thread Laurence Marks
As general information, Beta is a scaling of the predicted step. Earlier
versions of the mixer used an algorithm based upon improvements for this,
in the more recent version (improved in the next one, 10.5) it is estimated
from the previous history. A value of 0.05 means that the mixer thinks that
the predicted step is very inaccurate.

The specific case (deleted for size limits on emails) was taking very small
steps (e.g. "Newton 1.00  0.0016") which are ~1E-3 of the a Pratt step,
which is already small as the calculation is closed to converged (:DIS <
1D-3). With a GREED of 0.002 this means that the unpredicted step is also
small, and both are ~1D-6 (:DIRT :  |MSR1|= 2.768E-06). Very small steps
are susceptible to numerical noise and ill-conditioning. All mixers employ
Simplex differentiation which is a form of numerical differentiation so
susceptible to such problems.

I have not analyzed in detail myself the conditioning/noise of SOC in
Wien2k. Peter's recommendations are almost certainly ones which improve the
conditioning.

-- 
Professor Laurence Marks
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Northwestern University
www.numis.northwestern.edu
Corrosion in 4D: www.numis.northwestern.edu/MURI
Co-Editor, Acta Cryst A
"Research is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody
else has thought"
Albert Szent-Gyorgi
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Re: [Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging

2019-11-26 Thread Laurence Marks
What version of Wien2k are you using, particularly the mixer (grep
MULTISECANT *.scfm)?

Your calculations are "starving to death". The step size is so small (both
the GREED and Beta) that it is bouncing around on numerical noise. It may
well have already converged to the limits of the noise/conditioning in your
calculation, which is linked to RKMAX and the k-mesh and also (Peter's
response) from TETRA. The iterative diagonalizations also introduce some
noise.

For the specific case I would remove the prior history (rm *.broyd*) and
continue it.

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 11:01 AM Luigi Maduro - TNW 
wrote:

> Hello Laurence,
>
>
>
> This is the result I get when using Check-mixing (this is with the
> thinnest slab model, and using SCALA with Emax = 10.0 Ry)
>
>
>
>
>
> :DIRQ :  |MSR1|= 1.472E-06 |PRATT|= 3.852E-03 ANGLE=  79.0 DEGREES
>
> :DIRT :  |MSR1|= 1.516E-06 |PRATT|= 4.100E-03 ANGLE=  79.2 DEGREES
>
> :MIX  :   MSE1   REGULARIZATION:  9.15E-04 GREED: 0.00200  Newton 1.00
> 0.0004
>
> :ENE  : ** TOTAL ENERGY IN Ry =   -58196.30065156
>
> :DIS  :  CHARGE DISTANCE   ( 0.0046033 for atom7 spin 1)
> 0.0009683
>
> :PLANE:  PW TOTAL  6.0026 DISTAN   3.20E-03  5.33E-02 %
>
> :CHARG:  CLM/ATOM 74.0417 DISTAN   5.58E-04  7.54E-04 %
>
> :RANK :  ACTIVE  14.44/16 =  90.26 % ; YY RANK  14.44/16 =  90.25 %
>
> :DIRM :  MEMORY 16/12 SCALE   1.000 RED  2.57 PRED  0.95 NEXT  0.95 BETA
> 0.05
>
> :DIRP :  |MSR1|= 1.024E-06 |PRATT|= 3.198E-03 ANGLE= 102.9 DEGREES
>
> :DIRQ :  |MSR1|= 4.046E-06 |PRATT|= 1.005E-02 ANGLE=  82.5 DEGREES
>
> :DIRT :  |MSR1|= 4.174E-06 |PRATT|= 1.054E-02 ANGLE=  84.0 DEGREES
>
> :MIX  :   MSE1   REGULARIZATION:  1.33E-03 GREED: 0.00500  Newton 1.00
> 0.0004
>
> :ENE  : ** TOTAL ENERGY IN Ry =   -58196.30346394
>
> :DIS  :  CHARGE DISTANCE   ( 0.0012891 for atom8 spin 1)
> 0.0002073
>
> :PLANE:  PW TOTAL  6.0026 DISTAN   1.51E-03  2.51E-02 %
>
> :CHARG:  CLM/ATOM 74.0417 DISTAN   2.13E-04  2.88E-04 %
>
> :RANK :  ACTIVE  15.31/16 =  95.68 % ; YY RANK  15.31/16 =  95.72 %
>
> :DIRM :  MEMORY 16/12 SCALE   1.000 RED  0.39 PRED  0.95 NEXT  0.95 BETA
> 0.05
>
> :DIRP :  |MSR1|= 3.562E-07 |PRATT|= 1.508E-03 ANGLE=  72.0 DEGREES
>
> :DIRQ :  |MSR1|= 1.479E-06 |PRATT|= 3.835E-03 ANGLE=  80.1 DEGREES
>
> :DIRT :  |MSR1|= 1.522E-06 |PRATT|= 4.121E-03 ANGLE=  79.5 DEGREES
>
> :MIX  :   MSE1   REGULARIZATION:  9.97E-04 GREED: 0.00200  Newton 1.00
> 0.0004
>
> :ENE  : ** TOTAL ENERGY IN Ry =   -58196.29908151
>
> :DIS  :  CHARGE DISTANCE   ( 0.0007022 for atom7 spin 1)
> 0.0001661
>
> :PLANE:  PW TOTAL  6.0026 DISTAN   8.27E-04  1.38E-02 %
>
> :CHARG:  CLM/ATOM 74.0417 DISTAN   1.39E-04  1.87E-04 %
>
> :RANK :  ACTIVE  14.56/15 =  97.05 % ; YY RANK  14.56/15 =  97.07 %
>
> :DIRM :  MEMORY 15/12 SCALE   1.000 RED  0.64 PRED  0.95 NEXT  0.97 BETA
> 0.05
>
> :DIRP :  |MSR1|= 1.020E-06 |PRATT|= 8.274E-04 ANGLE=  53.5 DEGREES
>
> :DIRQ :  |MSR1|= 4.021E-06 |PRATT|= 2.497E-03 ANGLE=  54.9 DEGREES
>
> :DIRT :  |MSR1|= 4.149E-06 |PRATT|= 2.630E-03 ANGLE=  54.9 DEGREES
>
> :MIX  :   MSE1   REGULARIZATION:  9.23E-04 GREED: 0.00289  Newton 1.00
> 0.0016
>
> :ENE  : ** TOTAL ENERGY IN Ry =   -58196.29797368
>
> :DIS  :  CHARGE DISTANCE   ( 0.0051635 for atom7 spin 1)
> 0.0011664
>
> :PLANE:  PW TOTAL  6.0026 DISTAN   4.15E-03  6.91E-02 %
>
> :CHARG:  CLM/ATOM 74.0417 DISTAN   6.89E-04  9.31E-04 %
>
> :RANK :  ACTIVE  13.83/16 =  86.45 % ; YY RANK  13.82/16 =  86.38 %
>
> :DIRM :  MEMORY 16/12 SCALE   1.000 RED  4.97 PRED  0.97 NEXT  0.94 BETA
> 0.06
>
> :DIRP :  |MSR1|= 7.019E-07 |PRATT|= 4.150E-03 ANGLE=  88.8 DEGREES
>
> :DIRQ :  |MSR1|= 2.677E-06 |PRATT|= 1.240E-02 ANGLE=  83.7 DEGREES
>
> :DIRT :  |MSR1|= 2.768E-06 |PRATT|= 1.308E-02 ANGLE=  84.1 DEGREES
>
> :MIX  :   MSE1   REGULARIZATION:  1.18E-03 GREED: 0.00220  Newton 1.00
> 0.0002
>
> :ENE  : ** TOTAL ENERGY IN Ry =   -58196.30074694
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Luigi
>
> PhD candidate
> Kavli Institute of Nanoscience
>
> Department of Quantum Nanoscience
>
> Faculty of Applied Sciences
>
> Delft University of Technology
>
>
>


-- 
Professor Laurence Marks
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Northwestern University
www.numis.northwestern.edu
Corrosion in 4D: www.numis.northwestern.edu/MURI
Co-Editor, Acta Cryst A
"Research is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody
else has thought"
Albert Szent-Gyorgi
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Re: [Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging

2019-11-26 Thread Laurence Marks
A general comment about convergence, as there have been a few recent
questions.

Convergence is similar to paddling a canoe down a river from the mountains
to the sea. Sometimes the water is rushing by and you (the mixer) have to
try and avoid the rocks (ghost bands); sometimes you go over a waterfall
and the problem changes (electronic phase transition); sometimes you are on
a meandering river and do not seem to be making progress.

Check-mixing is designed to give some idea about what is going on, as a
simple grep on :DIS, for instance, does not reveal enough.

_
Professor Laurence Marks
"Research is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody
else has thought", Albert Szent-Gyorgi
www.numis.northwestern.edu

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019, 07:21 Luigi Maduro - TNW 
wrote:

> Hello there WIEN2k users,
>
>
>
> I am having a convergence problem with a supercell calculation of a slab
> of MoS2 including Spin-Orbit Coupling (SOC). The supercell is made by
> cutting in the plane of MoS2 which leads to either only edge Mo atoms or
> edge S atoms. A vacuum parallel to the edges is introduced (about 18
> angstroms) that separates the repeating images. Converged SCF calculations
> without SOC were found with this type of geometry for various widths. These
> converged SCF calculations were then used as input for an SCF calculation
> with SOC for the different widths. However, when including SOC only the
> smallest width gave a converged SCF calculation, albeit after doubling the
> amount of k-points and increasing nbands(more than twice what was
> originally suggested when running init_so). The larger widths do not result
> in a converged SCF calculation, even after substantially increasing nbands.
> Is the solution to just keep on increasing the amount of k-points until I
> do get converged SCF calculations or is the inclusion of the vacuum giving
> problems for lapwso?
>
>
>
>
>
> As a side not, I have a general question on how to relate Emax and nbands
> in case.in1. Up until recently I have been using SCALAPACK in WIEN2k and
> now I have switched to using ELPA. In the case of MoS2, a system with large
> spin-orbit coupling, the userguide recommends to increase the value of Emax
> to up to 10 Ry for large SOC systems when running the init_so script. If
> one is using ELPA then nbands should be increased. In the case of ELPA
> should nbands be increased to twice the amount given in case.in1 when
> initially running init_so?
>
>
>
>
>
> PhD candidate
> Kavli Institute of Nanoscience
>
> Department of Quantum Nanoscience
>
> Faculty of Applied Sciences
>
> Delft University of Technology
>
>
> ___
> Wien mailing list
> Wien@zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at
>
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>
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Re: [Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging

2019-11-26 Thread Peter Blaha

lapwso should work for surface slabs.

Is it a magnetic system ??  Probably not.

My guess: these slabs get metallic and you used TETRA ??? The 
additionally degeneracy may cause problems.
For a 2D system always use TEMP(S) and some smearing (conservative: 2 
mRy; to get improved scf-convergence increase it (temporarily) to 10 mRy


For such large cells I'd start with a small Emax (NBAND) and after 
convergence recheck with a larger value (it depends what quantities do 
you want to calculate with SO).




On 11/26/19 2:21 PM, Luigi Maduro - TNW wrote:

Hello there WIEN2k users,

I am having a convergence problem with a supercell calculation of a slab 
of MoS2 including Spin-Orbit Coupling (SOC). The supercell is made by 
cutting in the plane of MoS2 which leads to either only edge Mo atoms or 
edge S atoms. A vacuum parallel to the edges is introduced (about 18 
angstroms) that separates the repeating images. Converged SCF 
calculations without SOC were found with this type of geometry for 
various widths. These converged SCF calculations were then used as input 
for an SCF calculation with SOC for the different widths. However, when 
including SOC only the smallest width gave a converged SCF calculation, 
albeit after doubling the amount of k-points and increasing nbands(more 
than twice what was originally suggested when running init_so). The 
larger widths do not result in a converged SCF calculation, even after 
substantially increasing nbands. Is the solution to just keep on 
increasing the amount of k-points until I do get converged SCF 
calculations or is the inclusion of the vacuum giving problems for lapwso?


As a side not, I have a general question on how to relate Emax and 
nbands in case.in1. Up until recently I have been using SCALAPACK in 
WIEN2k and now I have switched to using ELPA. In the case of MoS2, a 
system with large spin-orbit coupling, the userguide recommends to 
increase the value of Emax to up to 10 Ry for large SOC systems when 
running the init_so script. If one is using ELPA then nbands should be 
increased. In the case of ELPA should nbands be increased to twice the 
amount given in case.in1 when initially running init_so?


PhD candidate
Kavli Institute of Nanoscience

Department of Quantum Nanoscience

Faculty of Applied Sciences

Delft University of Technology


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--

  P.Blaha
--
Peter BLAHA, Inst.f. Materials Chemistry, TU Vienna, A-1060 Vienna
Phone: +43-1-58801-165300 FAX: +43-1-58801-165982
Email: bl...@theochem.tuwien.ac.atWIEN2k: http://www.wien2k.at
WWW:   http://www.imc.tuwien.ac.at/TC_Blaha
--
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Re: [Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging

2019-11-26 Thread Laurence Marks
For the convergence, please run "Check-mixing" (for recent versions) and
paste the result. This may give an idea. It may be that the calculation is
slowly changing the spin/orbital momentum and progressing towards the
solution. You may have a tunnel or even spiral convergence.

For SOC, the accuracy depends upon the number of bands used (nband with
ELPA). I suggest testing the convergence with a smaller problem (e.g. bulk
MoS2) then transferring this to your problem, e.g. chose nband such that it
gives states to the same energy above Ef.

_
Professor Laurence Marks
"Research is to see what everybody else has seen, and to think what nobody
else has thought", Albert Szent-Gyorgi
www.numis.northwestern.edu

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019, 07:21 Luigi Maduro - TNW 
wrote:

> Hello there WIEN2k users,
>
>
>
> I am having a convergence problem with a supercell calculation of a slab
> of MoS2 including Spin-Orbit Coupling (SOC). The supercell is made by
> cutting in the plane of MoS2 which leads to either only edge Mo atoms or
> edge S atoms. A vacuum parallel to the edges is introduced (about 18
> angstroms) that separates the repeating images. Converged SCF calculations
> without SOC were found with this type of geometry for various widths. These
> converged SCF calculations were then used as input for an SCF calculation
> with SOC for the different widths. However, when including SOC only the
> smallest width gave a converged SCF calculation, albeit after doubling the
> amount of k-points and increasing nbands(more than twice what was
> originally suggested when running init_so). The larger widths do not result
> in a converged SCF calculation, even after substantially increasing nbands.
> Is the solution to just keep on increasing the amount of k-points until I
> do get converged SCF calculations or is the inclusion of the vacuum giving
> problems for lapwso?
>
>
>
>
>
> As a side not, I have a general question on how to relate Emax and nbands
> in case.in1. Up until recently I have been using SCALAPACK in WIEN2k and
> now I have switched to using ELPA. In the case of MoS2, a system with large
> spin-orbit coupling, the userguide recommends to increase the value of Emax
> to up to 10 Ry for large SOC systems when running the init_so script. If
> one is using ELPA then nbands should be increased. In the case of ELPA
> should nbands be increased to twice the amount given in case.in1 when
> initially running init_so?
>
>
>
>
>
> PhD candidate
> Kavli Institute of Nanoscience
>
> Department of Quantum Nanoscience
>
> Faculty of Applied Sciences
>
> Delft University of Technology
>
>
> ___
> Wien mailing list
> Wien@zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at_mailman_listinfo_wien=DwICAg=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws=U_T4PL6jwANfAy4rnxTj8IUxm818jnvqKFdqWLwmqg0=XX2No0AfEa4DjARfeJMqG19OtvlKCdEDrTXWDvLOmqo=WGaKK3zLkOCpwqEGHZ8_GDByOyFmnUuDzbYZU5bAppU=
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[Wien] Spin-orbit coupling SCF not converging

2019-11-26 Thread Luigi Maduro - TNW
Hello there WIEN2k users,

I am having a convergence problem with a supercell calculation of a slab of 
MoS2 including Spin-Orbit Coupling (SOC). The supercell is made by cutting in 
the plane of MoS2 which leads to either only edge Mo atoms or edge S atoms. A 
vacuum parallel to the edges is introduced (about 18 angstroms) that separates 
the repeating images. Converged SCF calculations without SOC were found with 
this type of geometry for various widths. These converged SCF calculations were 
then used as input for an SCF calculation with SOC for the different widths. 
However, when including SOC only the smallest width gave a converged SCF 
calculation, albeit after doubling the amount of k-points and increasing 
nbands(more than twice what was originally suggested when running init_so). The 
larger widths do not result in a converged SCF calculation, even after 
substantially increasing nbands. Is the solution to just keep on increasing the 
amount of k-points until I do get converged SCF calculations or is the 
inclusion of the vacuum giving problems for lapwso?


As a side not, I have a general question on how to relate Emax and nbands in 
case.in1. Up until recently I have been using SCALAPACK in WIEN2k and now I 
have switched to using ELPA. In the case of MoS2, a system with large 
spin-orbit coupling, the userguide recommends to increase the value of Emax to 
up to 10 Ry for large SOC systems when running the init_so script. If one is 
using ELPA then nbands should be increased. In the case of ELPA should nbands 
be increased to twice the amount given in case.in1 when initially running 
init_so?


PhD candidate
Kavli Institute of Nanoscience
Department of Quantum Nanoscience
Faculty of Applied Sciences
Delft University of Technology

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