[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-03-27 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #40 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
Another GSoC project that tries to help in this direction, making very easy for
admins to customize the CSS styles of their wikis. 

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Protnet/Frontend_for_Vector_skin_CSS_customizations

We need mentors urgently! Otherwise we cannot accept it. Volunteers needed.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-03-17 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #39 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
Related, a GSoC project:

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Jack_Phoenix/A_modern,_scalable_and_attractive_skin_for_MediaWiki_(GSoC_2014_proposal)

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-02-08 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||61099

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #38 from Isarra zhoris...@gmail.com ---
ShoutWiki uses a thing we call themes, which are basically distinct styles of
existing skins - usually different colour schemes or what have you, such as a
dark theme for vector, a bright flowery theme for monaco, etc.

But there hasn't really any good way to do this in general, besides the
skin.css on the site itself. until quite recently. LESS opens up some doors for
potentially adding built-in support for skin theming...

Point is, this is probably what you'd want to use for this - a Wikimedia theme
for whatever the default skin is. Other folks could make their own themes or
not, but that'd achieve the main goal.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #30 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
Are we ok closing this as WONTFIX for now unless an actionable proposal
(perhaps on wiki) is arrived at?

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #31 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
Are we ok closing this as WONTFIX for now unless an actionable proposal
(perhaps on wiki) is arrived at?

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #32 from James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #30)
 Are we ok closing this as WONTFIX for now unless an actionable proposal
 (perhaps on wiki) is arrived at?

What's changed since your comment 6? Keeping this bug open is fine.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #33 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
@james https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60317 seems like a more
actionable way to address the source of the problem end user configuration is
hard rather than the outcome end users don't configure

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #34 from James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #33)
 @james https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60317 seems like a more
 actionable way to address the source of the problem end user configuration
 is
 hard rather than the outcome end users don't configure

Sure, except that's not what this bug is.

This bug is to make WMF-hosted wikis look slightly visually distinctive whilst
still maintaining the same skin as much as possible in the tarball / git
versions.

It's not about helping end users configure their site; it's specifically about
having WMF configure our sites away from stock.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #35 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
One problem, discussed in bug 60317, is that MediaWiki must enable easier UI
customization without requiring to hack/fork Vector etc.

Another problem, discussed here, is that Wikipedia (and the rest of Wikimedia
projects, I guess) must have a distinctive look  feel that make them stand
apart from a plain MediaWiki installation.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #36 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
Yes Quim, Jon R.  Matt F. talked about this yesterday, we specifically DON'T
want another skin and we do want any improvements made to the default skin
available to everyone.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #37 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #36)
 Yes Quim, Jon R.  Matt F. talked about this yesterday, we specifically DON'T
 want another skin and we do want any improvements made to the default skin
 available to everyone.

Right, but I think it is possible to make it visually distinctive without
making a new skin.

I also agree that letting third-party sites easily make themselves visually
distinctive will help.  First, they want to.  Second, that change in the other
direction increases the overall visual distinctiveness between the two.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|Low |High
   Severity|enhancement |critical

--- Comment #10 from Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net ---
Considering
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trademark_policy/FAQ#1.3_What_is_.22trade_dress.22.3F,
this bug becomes high importance and critical severity. 

If the look and feel of Wikimedia wikis is to be trademarked by the Wikimedia
Foundation, then by shipping Vector, which is the biggest part of that look and
feel, as the default skin for MediaWiki, we're needlessly putting our third
party users at risk of being sued for trademark infringement. 

And that's real bad.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|High|Normal
   Severity|critical|enhancement

--- Comment #11 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #10)
 If the look and feel of Wikimedia wikis is to be trademarked by the Wikimedia
 Foundation, then by shipping Vector, which is the biggest part of that look
 and feel, as the default skin for MediaWiki, we're needlessly putting our 
 third
 party users at risk of being sued for trademark infringement. 
 
 And that's real bad.

Instead of Low/enhancement, let's try Normal/enhancement. High/critical seems a
bit extreme, but perhaps Luis or someone else on the Wikimedia Foundation legal
team agrees.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|Normal  |High
   Severity|enhancement |critical

--- Comment #12 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #10)
 by shipping Vector, which is the biggest part of that look and
 feel, as the default skin for MediaWiki, we're needlessly putting our third
 party users at risk of being sued for trademark infringement. 

I'm not a lawyer etc, but I guess everybody agrees that the WMF will not sue
anybody for using MediaWiki and MobileFrontend out of the box. There is an
ongoing discussion in wikimedia-l and perhaps elsewhere, but I don't think we
need to translate that discussion here.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|High|Normal
   Severity|critical|enhancement

--- Comment #13 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
ooops, mid-air collision

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Luis Villa (WMF Legal) lvi...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|Normal  |High
   Severity|enhancement |critical

--- Comment #14 from Luis Villa (WMF Legal) lvi...@wikimedia.org ---
As the FAQ explains[1], as long as you don't use one of the Wikimedia logos or
a confusingly similar domain name, merely using Vector/default Mediawiki does
not create a risk of being sued for infringement. So this is not a
critical/time-sensitive bug.

That said, it'd obviously be less confusing for everyone if
Vector-as-shipped-by-default-with-Mediawiki and
Vector-as-deployed-on-Wikimedia-sites were slightly different; or if the same
were true of any future theme we develop. So certainly legal approves of the
original intent of the bug. :)

Hope that helps; happy to answer questions.

[1]  Q/A 5.3, scroll down a bit from here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trademark_policy#FAQ-fakearticle

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|High|Normal
   Severity|critical|enhancement

--- Comment #15 from Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net ---
Let's fix priority and severity again, then.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #16 from James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #14)
 As the FAQ explains[1], as long as you don't use one of the Wikimedia logos
 or
 a confusingly similar domain name, merely using Vector/default Mediawiki does
 not create a risk of being sued for infringement. So this is not a
 critical/time-sensitive bug.
 
 That said, it'd obviously be less confusing for everyone if
 Vector-as-shipped-by-default-with-Mediawiki and
 Vector-as-deployed-on-Wikimedia-sites were slightly different; or if the same
 were true of any future theme we develop. So certainly legal approves of the
 original intent of the bug. :)
 
 Hope that helps; happy to answer questions.
 
 [1]  Q/A 5.3, scroll down a bit from here:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Trademark_policy#FAQ-fakearticle

One of the points of Vector was to make MW-on-WMF-cluster distinct from
MW-tarball. Unfortunately, this was forgotten and Vector became both shipped by
default (bad) and enabled as default (worse) from this POV.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #17 from Tomasz W. Kozlowski tom...@twkozlowski.net ---
(In reply to comment #14)

 As the FAQ explains[1], as long as you don't use one of the Wikimedia logos
 or a confusingly similar domain name, merely using Vector/default Mediawiki
 does not create a risk of being sued for infringement. So this is not a
 critical/time-sensitive bug.

The part of the FAQ that I quoted was very precise in stating that the trade
dress of any Wikimedia site is also a trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation,
with trade dress being defined as the look and feel of a site. 

Vector is currently the single most important part of that look and feel, so if
the sentence I quoted isn't true, can we please have it fixed? Thanks :-)

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #18 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
Just to weigh in, the goal is that wikimedia wikis would have a distinct but
equally feature rich skin as one that is shipped with mediawiki, the problem is
that this means that the foundation and/or community it maintaining two
distinct skins, which is exactly what we're trying to get away from. So, I'd
love for the default mediawiki skin to be really clean and minimal, to allow
for quick customization by people who want to use mediawiki on their sites.
Still maintaining two skins is better than 5 I guess.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #19 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #18)
 Just to weigh in, the goal is that wikimedia wikis would have a distinct but
 equally feature rich skin as one that is shipped with mediawiki,

That's a bigger change than requested by this bug.  This bug is not saying WMF
should stop using Vector, or that stock MW should.  It's just about some change
to make the WMF wikis more distinctive.

I don't think it makes sense to have the WMf and stock MW use an entirely
different skin, for similar reasons to those cited by Jared.  There should be
one leading-edge skin, which is currently Vector, for both third-party and WMF.
 That will let WMF staff and volunteers collaborate on enhancing it.

Even if the default MW skin was not Vector, people could still use Vector as
long as they didn't use specific WMF trademarks (e.g. Wikipedia globe, or any
custom non-stock color scheme adopted).  That's part of open source software.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #20 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
@Matt, the way I read the bug was that us someone goes to mediawiki.org,
downloads and installs the CMS, in its out of the box configuration it should
not be confused with a wikimedia foundation wiki. Which would mean some
possibly radical changes to the skin. I think this goes beyond logos and color.
If thats not the goal of this bug I think that i might not be the only one
confused here.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #21 from Chad H. innocentkil...@gmail.com ---
I'm going on the record as saying I think it's a /good thing/ that we use the
same software that we ship, skin included.

I absolutely hate when we start using secret magic at WMF that makes it
harder/impossible for third parties to fork/reuse as they so desire.

(Not CCing myself on purpose, please don't add me)

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #22 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
I don't think we have any problem that Wordpress, Drupal, etc haven't addressed
yet. Skins should be about skinning, not about providing extra functionality.
As long as modifying the Vector skin is a pain, most MediaWikis will look
alike.

Good skinning includes:

* Changing typefaces and font sizes
* Changing colors and backgrounds
* Changing variable/fixed width
* Changing the position of navigation bars horizontal or vertical left/right
* Customizing the footer

Technically, MediaWiki and vector allow you to do this... In practice doing
this and maintaining your changes is a pain that almost nobody wants to go
through.

I agree that having skins with different functionality for plain MediaWiki and
WMF sites would be really troublesome for many reasons. Good skinning +
extensions available to anybody should suffice.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #23 from Luis Villa (WMF Legal) lvi...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #17)
 (In reply to comment #14)
 
  As the FAQ explains[1], as long as you don't use one of the Wikimedia logos
  or a confusingly similar domain name, merely using Vector/default Mediawiki
  does not create a risk of being sued for infringement. So this is not a
  critical/time-sensitive bug.
 
 The part of the FAQ that I quoted was very precise in stating that the trade
 dress of any Wikimedia site is also a trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation,
 with trade dress being defined as the look and feel of a site. 
 
 Vector is currently the single most important part of that look and feel, so
 if
 the sentence I quoted isn't true, can we please have it fixed? Thanks :-)

I hesitate to spill the trademark argument into yet another forum, but so that
others are not confused: the look and feel is the totality of the site,
*including the logo*. As the FAQ says, Vector in and of itself is not
sufficient.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #24 from Luis Villa (WMF Legal) lvi...@wikimedia.org ---
totality of the site's *look and feel*, should have said.

[So, for example, a Vector rip-off + a logo rip-off could be a
confusing/infringing look and feel; Vector + a completely different logo would
not be the same look and feel, so not confusing/infringing.]

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #25 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
This to me is an argument for a configuration extension, that allows users on
their own wiki to quickly change logo, colors, fonts, etc. but that is a
separate bug.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #26 from Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #20)
 @Matt, the way I read the bug was that us someone goes to mediawiki.org,
 downloads and installs the CMS, in its out of the box configuration it should
 not be confused with a wikimedia foundation wiki.

Sidenote, it's wiki software, not a CMS.  See
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Security_issues_with_authorization_extensions .

 Which would mean some possibly radical changes to the skin. I think this goes 
 beyond logos and color.

I agree with Quim.  Having WMF-specific overrides on things like color, logos,
typeface, footer, sidebar, etc. should be enough.  There's also extensions. 
Although the primary purpose is to add new (open source) functionality, since
different wikis have different extensions installed, that also creates a
different experience.

If we have actual different core functionality on by default, that means
additional common configuration possibilities to test and less efficient
collaboration with non-WMF developers.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #27 from Luis Villa (WMF Legal) lvi...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #26)
 Having WMF-specific overrides on things like color,
 logos, typeface, footer, sidebar, etc. should be enough. 

And to be clear, legal agrees. No *legal* reason to require different
layout/functionality/etc. (I don't see any good strategic/engineering reasons
either, but that part isn't my call :)

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #28 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #25)
 This to me is an argument for a configuration extension, that allows users on
 their own wiki to quickly change logo, colors, fonts, etc. but that is a
 separate bug.

I've just filed bug 60317. It shouldn't be an extension, in my opinion, it
should be in core. :-)

(In reply to comment #22)
 Good skinning includes:
 
 * Changing typefaces and font sizes
 * Changing colors and backgrounds
 * Changing variable/fixed width
 * Changing the position of navigation bars horizontal or vertical left/right
 * Customizing the footer
 
 Technically, MediaWiki and vector allow you to do this... In practice doing
 this and maintaining your changes is a pain that almost nobody wants to go
 through.

Indeed. I like this thinking. It focuses on positive action and tries to
encourage creativity and customizability. I separated this idea out into bug
60317.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #29 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
Re-quoting comment 0:
 Wikipedia's visual identity should be distinct. It need not be obnoxiously
 and loudly distinct. It is probably sufficient to apply a subtle, non-default
 styling to a prominent UI element, like changing the color of the Vector
 sidebar to a slightly different shade of grey.

After giving it some thought, I think this is bullshit. Perhaps in a world
where every user is the ideal user (competent, attentive, using decent computer
equipment, etc.), subtly changing the sidebar color would work.

But people, real people, barely understand what Wikipedia is. They have no idea
who Vector is or what a MediaWiki is. As far as they're concerned, Wikimedia
is a typo for Wikipedia. And most of them have bad eyes or bad computer
monitors, so the sidebar blends in to the page content.

This is to say: for the people who can distinguish a URL bar and the logo, any
subtle change won't help; for everyone else, any subtle change won't help.

That leaves us with a non-subtle change. I don't really want to pursue that.

Perhaps there are specific, actionable items that can come from this bug, but
as far as I'm concerned, at the moment, I'd consider it invalid. This isn't to
say that every idea here is bad or shouldn't be pursued. We should definitely
make it easier to customize the skin (echoing Trevor in comment 4 and Jared in
comment 25), but I don't currently see much path for growth in this bug report.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugzilla.wikimedia.
   ||org/show_bug.cgi?id=60317

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-09-16 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Seb35 seb35wikipe...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||seb35wikipe...@gmail.com

--- Comment #9 from Seb35 seb35wikipe...@gmail.com ---
Cross-linking with discussion on the design-l mailing-list (July 24, 2013):
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2013-July/000773.html

About the bug I aggree with the deeper issue raised by Quim Gil: by experience
with some local territory wikis in France (particularly Wiki-Brest but some
others also), the Wikipedia skin is used because:
1/ it’s Wikipedia skin, so it’s easier for users to navigate, edit, etc., and
even if wikis sometimes want a custom style, they often want also keep a
general 'Wikipedia' appearence (with small customisations) for simplicity for
the users;
2/ it’s difficult to change the default skin; perhaps a easier way to customise
partially or totally the skin would help wikis to differ from Wikipedia (at
least there would only remain the first point).

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-08-30 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #8 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #2)
 Thinking about this specifically for the mobile ui this could be as simple as
 changing the header/left menu colour in some way.

Specifically about mobile, colors alone won't do. I believe the project logo /
name must appear somewhere in the header, not just only in the footer.
Currently any site using MobileFrontend will give you exactly the same first
impression, without any identity in the header at all.

MediaWiki/Vector kind of forces you to have a square-ish logo anyway (and all
the Wikimedia logos do fit well in a square). A place should be found for it in
the header.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-08-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||q...@wikimedia.org

--- Comment #7 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
This would be useful, yes. Note that 3rd party wikis look a lot like Wikipedia
not only because both use the same Vector skin by default, but al because it is
damn complex for an average 3rd party to depart from it:

* Configuring or customizing Vector skin isn't trivial. Likely customizations
like how to apply fixed width, change colors, change the header/footer, modify
the size of fonts... are not documented and require to look deep in the CSS to
see what needs to be changed at MediaWiki:Common.css. You may need to modify
the skin itself, and forking Vector and take care of diffs when upgrading is
not something most people want to do.

* Selecting a different skin is even more complicated for an average 3rd party.
There are basically no skins out there that would give the confidence in terms
of stability, adoption and current support. When you use a MediaWiki skin found
somewhere you are basically on your own, not even able to know whether such
skin covers Vector's functionality (e.g. does it work in older MS Explorer
versions).

Therefore yes, a custom look  feel for Wikimedia sites is one step. But
actually the right solution is to provide the enablers for proper MediaWiki
customization. Look at http://wordpress.org or http://drupal.org . They don't
look much different than their software out of the box, but the difference is
that Wordpress and Drupal admins can start customizing right away, and get a
very different looking site wits a few simple steps.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-07-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #6 from Jared Zimmerman (WMF) jared.zimmer...@wikimedia.org ---
As I said before, I'm all for this. If eng. wants to start on this please
attempt to create a back end system for swapping key colors that is independent
of any elements currently in vector so that it will be usable as vector or any
other future skin changes and evolves.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-07-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|Unprioritized   |Low
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-07-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #4 from Trevor Parscal tpars...@wikimedia.org ---
Brandon: I think we can gain a lot of distinction using very little adjustment
and avoid any significant maintenance overhead - but I do agree that we
probably won't reach 100% distinction by adjusting the shade of a few things,
we may have to go a little farther than that.

MZ: Other projects should also be customized, perhaps subtly differently as
well since it's been observed that people often don't realize they are on a
different site when being linked between Wikipedia, Commons and Wiktionary.
Making some standard visual elements be adjustable on a per-project basis could
give us an opportunity to make each project have more of it's own identity.
I've advanced seen people change colors in their user CSS to avoid posting on
the wrong wikis - this is an indication that there is too much similarity right
now.

Execution does seem pretty simple:

Step 1: Add the capability to configure by some reasonable means
Step 3: Add an RL module that dynamicaly generates CSS based on configuration
Step 2: Choose some visual elements to vary and add dynamic CSS classes for
them
Step 4: Adjust skin HTML output to use those dynamic classes
Step 5: Adjust skin stylesheets to work with the new classes than hard coding
them

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-07-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #5 from Steven Walling swall...@wikimedia.org ---
I think this is potentially a win-win situation for MediaWiki as a FOSS project
and Wikimedia wikis.

For Wikimedia, even small changes might help give them a more unique look that
doesn't confuse Wikipedia, Wiktionary, et al. with every third part wiki. For
MediaWiki, this is another opportunity to show that it really is a standalone
FOSS project that can and should be able to function without always being
specific to Wikimedia's use cases and design. 

It's hard to underestimate how little knowledge there is out there about the
differences between MediaWiki, Wikipedia, and other wikis. Pretty much all the
time, I have people unfamiliar with the projects ask me if all things with the
name wiki in it are owned by Wikipedia. The list of ways to be confused goes
on and on.

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-07-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #1 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
Not to be obtuse, but: do you mean only Wikipedias or would you include the
other Wikimedia wiki families in this bug as well (Wiktionaries, Wikiversities,
Wikinewseseses, etc.)?

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-07-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #2 from Jon jrob...@wikimedia.org ---
Thinking about this specifically for the mobile ui this could be as simple as
changing the header/left menu colour in some way.

There could be 2 theme CSS files that are enabled in LocalSettings.PHP -
Wikimedia chooses the non default one.

One good example is Wikitravel.org it looks very similar to us and can confuse
people. I discovered this when explaining Wikivoyage to a friend...

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[Bug 51912] Make Wikipedia distinct by styling of a prominent UI feature differently than the default

2013-07-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51912

--- Comment #3 from Brandon Harris bhar...@wikimedia.org ---
I am fairly sympathetic to this issue. However, I have difficulty seeing a way
that we can do it without requiring an extra extension that applies the
Wikimedia flavor to whatever default skin is being used.

I could see a way where we do something like this:

* build all our basic designs in core
* create Extension:Wikimedia that has some css/design overrides

I don't know that it would be a great deal of work to do that.

However, a simple color shift may not avoid the kind of confusion that I think
is being hinted at in this bug.

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