[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-17 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #20 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
Use case for 3rd party MediWiki sysadmins:

Mobile used to be read-only, now we just upgraded to 1.22 and we got mobile
editing. It's quite new, kind of testing. Let's see how it goes.

If registered users have problems or cause mess via mobile editing, at least we
have a way to contact them. Also, if they are registered then they probably
have a higher interest in the site, a higher probability to share opinions
about the new feature with us. Motivation and commitment of anonymous users is
unclear, and contacting them is between difficult and impossible. Therefore it
is good to have an option to block anonymous mobile editing while the whole
feature matures. 

Our wiki doesn't need to be at the forefront of MediaWiki experimentation. We
have other problems more mundane, like preventing spam or explaining our users
how to edit, discuss, translate. Let's let Wikipedia and others try first, as
with many other new features. Let us know when you think the feature is ready
form everybody.

PS: I don't come here to fight, just to express a personal opinion based on my
own experience as humble amateur 3rd party MediaWiki sysadmin. I have said all
I had to say in this report.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-16 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #17 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #15)
 You or any other wiki system
 administrator determine who can edit by modifying user rights in
 LocalSettings.php. You can restrict anonymous (mobile) editing easily and
 many wikis do.

To be clear: can MediaWiki sysadmins disable anonymous mobile editing while
enabling desktop mobile editing by modifying user rights?

If today they can, fine, I'm happy to recommend that approach to MobileFrontend
users. If not, then please don't remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing while no better
alternative exists.

MZMcBride, you say that you don't see a compelling case. The maintainers of
MobileFrontend do see the point, to the extent of having developed a solution
for it. Bug 52442 comment 14 is probably a good summary of that rationale. This
is not a real issue for any 3rd party MediaWiki sysadmin because if anybody
disagrees with that rationale they can just set $wgMFAnonymousEditing to true
and move on.

Going back to your comment 0 and potential steps in the short term, your main
motivation in this discussion is this:

 setting it to true by default and overriding Wikimedia's setting

These are two very different things. 

Setting $wgMFAnonymousEditing to true by default in Mobile Frontend is indeed
trivial, although it is also trivial for sysadmins to change it. Therefore I
would say that, as long as the maintainers of MobileFrontend are not confident
about the support for anonymous mobile editing, it make sense to give the
choice to MediaWiki sysadmins with a conservative default.

Setting $wgMFAnonymousEditing to true in Wikimedia projects is a Wikimedia
specific discussion. Trying to address it with your patch against
MobileFrontend doesn't look like a good approach to me.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-16 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #18 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #17)

You've been asked repeatedly to provide a use-case and have failed to do so.

 MZMcBride, you say that you don't see a compelling case. The maintainers of
 MobileFrontend do see the point, to the extent of having developed a solution
 for it.

You seem to have missed (or you're deliberately ignoring) comment 11.

 Bug 52442 comment 14 is probably a good summary of that rationale.

No; cf. bug 53069 comment 2.

 This is not a real issue for any 3rd party MediaWiki sysadmin because if
 anybody disagrees with that rationale they can just set $wgMFAnonymousEditing
 to true and move on.

This comment makes no sense.

 Going back to your comment 0 and potential steps in the short term, your main
 motivation in this discussion is this:
 
 setting it to true by default and overriding Wikimedia's setting
 
 These are two very different things. 

No kidding. However, it doesn't make sense to change the extension default or
specify the setting in Wikimedia's configuration if the configuration variable
should not exist at all. A global configuration variable requires a use-case,
otherwise it should be removed. You still have not provided any use-case here.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-16 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #19 from Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org ---
The use-case is the following:
Number of useful edits from anonymous mobile editors  number of non-useful
edits from anonymous mobile editors, but number of useful edits from anonymous
desktop editors  number of non-useful edits from anonymous desktop editors. I
imagine for most WMF wikis the equation will work out in favor of anonymous
editing on mobile, but I'm not as sure about 3rd party wikis (where there is
less social cost for non-useful edits). We already know from existing data that
editing behavior is different on mobile than desktop, and we also know from
existing desktop data that anonymous editing is different than logged in
editing. Thus it is reasonable to conclude that anonymous mobile editing will
show a unique set of behaviors (and thus wiki administrators should be able to
treat them as a unique group in the software). At least that's my 2 cents.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-15 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #13 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #12)
 If this is the case, I think it shouldn't be removed unless there is already
 another way for admins to limit mobile edits while allowing desktop edits.

Is there a use-case for doing this? If so, what is it?

And is there any way for this potential use-case to be covered by the standard
edit user right?

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-15 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #14 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #13)
 (In reply to comment #12)
  If this is the case, I think it shouldn't be removed unless there is already
  another way for admins to limit mobile edits while allowing desktop edits.
 
 Is there a use-case for doing this? If so, what is it?

Isn't the question whether there is a use-case to remove an existing feature
that doesn't seem to bother anybody in MediaWiki-not-Wikimedia land?

The average third party MediaWiki using MobileFrontend is used to the idea of
having editable desktop and read-only mobile, since mobile editing is a recent
addition. The fact that they installed voluntarily MobileFrontend shows that
they were happy with this combination. Now that mobile editing is possible,
they can voluntarily enable anonymous editing in their sites with a simple
change in the configuration.

If $wgMFAnonymousEditing is simply removed, and no technical alternative exists
to restrict anonymous mobile editing, then they will be forced to accept it
when upgrading MobileUpdate, which sounds like a weird imposition if you are
not aware of these Wikimedia-centric debates.

I'm very familiar with all this since my personal pet project has been using
MobileFrontend since it was quite a wild young beast. We might enable anonymous
mobile editing now that we upgraded to last versions of MediaWiki and MF, but
it would be nice to be able to apply this change (and revert it if needed)
based on our own criteria and actions, instead of being forced as part of a
software update.


 And is there any way for this potential use-case to be covered by the
 standard edit user right?

No idea, others might know better.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-15 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #15 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #14)
 Isn't the question whether there is a use-case to remove an existing feature
 that doesn't seem to bother anybody in MediaWiki-not-Wikimedia land?

Nope. Global configuration variables are similar to user preferences in this
way. There should be a sensible default and an option should only be introduced
if absolutely necessary. In this case, I (still) don't see a compelling
use-case.

 If $wgMFAnonymousEditing is simply removed, and no technical alternative
 exists to restrict anonymous mobile editing, then they will be forced to
 accept it when upgrading MobileUpdate, which sounds like a weird imposition if
 you are not aware of these Wikimedia-centric debates.

Sorry, this doesn't make any sense to me. You or any other wiki system
administrator determine who can edit by modifying user rights in
LocalSettings.php. You can restrict anonymous (mobile) editing easily and many
wikis do.

 I'm very familiar with all this since my personal pet project has been using
 MobileFrontend since it was quite a wild young beast. We might enable
 anonymous mobile editing now that we upgraded to last versions of MediaWiki
 and MF, but it would be nice to be able to apply this change (and revert it if
 needed) based on our own criteria and actions, instead of being forced as part
 of a software update.

MobileFrontend is a mobile front-end. If you're not interested in having a
mobile front-end, you can uninstall the extension (or downgrade it, I suppose).
If you want to restrict anonymous editing, that's part of MediaWiki core, as
stated. I don't see the issue here.

In my mind, it's far more disruptive to have an undocumented configuration
variable that defies general expectations. If you think of MobileFrontend as a
skin, it would never make any sense that it would touch the ability of anyone
to edit.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-15 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #16 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
To be clear, you _could_ re-implement this same functionality by creating
mobile-specific user rights (e.g., mobile-edit, mobile-upload, etc.). But I
don't see a compelling case for making such a distinction in user rights and
the additional code complexity isn't particularly cheap.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-11 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||q...@wikimedia.org

--- Comment #12 from Quim Gil q...@wikimedia.org ---
$wgMFAnonymousEditing is not documented at
[[mw:Extension:MobileFrontend#Configuration_settings]], but I assume it is a
configuration that can be changed in LocalSettings, right?

If this is the case, I think it shouldn't be removed unless there is already
another way for admins to limit mobile edits while allowing desktop edits.

The fact that it set to false by default shouldn't be a big deal, right? I
think the current setting makes sense since all in all the whole concept of
editing MediaWikis from your mobile device is quite new both for users and
admins. As said, if an admin is unhappy about false then setting it to true is
trivial.

If the motivation of this report is the policy for mobile editing in Wikimedia
projects, then I think such discussion doesn't belong to MobileFrontend but to
Wikimedia configuration. I specifically disagree with the idea of removing
existing functionality in a MediaWiki extension because of a problem specific
to Wikimedia that can be solved setting a variable to true.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-10 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #9 from Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com ---
Well, in that case, we can use the very same repo to create some truly horrific
hooks which would achieve the same purpose. This kind of stuff was done before.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-10 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #10 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #9)
 Well, in that case, we can use the very same repo to create some truly
 horrific hooks which would achieve the same purpose. This kind of stuff was
 done before.

Is there a reason to have $wgMFAnonymousEditing?

If you wanted to disable MobileFrontend, wouldn't you just uninstall it? And
when installing, I would think it would follow the standard 'edit' permission.
Or use its own user right if someone has a decent use-case.

I still need to look closer at this. I may end up submitting a changeset of my
own.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-10 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #11 from Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org ---
Change 106851 had a related patch set uploaded by Jdlrobson:
Remove wgMFAnonymousEditing

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/106851

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-10 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |PATCH_TO_REVIEW

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||easy
   Priority|Low |Normal
 Blocks||53069
Summary|Re-examine default setting  |Remove
   |of $wgMFAnonymousEditing in |$wgMFAnonymousEditing from
   |MobileFrontend extension|MobileFrontend extension
   Severity|enhancement |normal

--- Comment #2 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
I've given this additional consideration and having $wgMFAnonymousEditing
doesn't make any sense to me. It should simply be removed from the extension.

I can't think of any reason that a wiki would install this extension and not
want the standard edit user right to just work with mobile.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||aklap...@wikimedia.org
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

--- Comment #3 from Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org ---
Bug title does not describe a bug but removing functionality. 
Hence setting priority to enhancement.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|enhancement |normal

--- Comment #4 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #3)
 Bug title does not describe a bug but removing functionality. Hence setting
 priority to enhancement.

It isn't an enhancement if the current behavior is broken. Right now, a wiki
admin would reasonably assume that 'edit' would control editing. This isn't the
case given this confusing global configuration variable.

Andre: please engage in discussion and collaboration rather than simply blindly
reverting any severity or priority change that you happen to disagree with.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

Jon jrob...@wikimedia.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|normal  |enhancement

--- Comment #5 from Jon jrob...@wikimedia.org ---
Removing this will kill the CTA that has been successfully allowing us to run
getting started like experiments on new users and the huge increase in accounts
created in the project as general so we need to think carefully about this. I
agree however that we should probably give this a higher priority than normal.

I'm reverting the status back to enhancement as not enough discussion has
occurred to warrant this change in status.

MZ: please engage in discussion and collaboration rather than simply blindly
reverting any severity or priority change that you happen to disagree with.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #6 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #5)
 Removing this will kill the CTA that has been successfully allowing us to run
 getting started like experiments on new users and the huge increase in
 accounts created in the project as general so we need to think carefully about
 this. I agree however that we should probably give this a higher priority than
 normal.

Experimenting on new users without their consent sounds like a very bad
practice, not something we want to encourage.

Regarding calls to action, that point hardly seems relevant here. You can have
many calls to action without misleadingly giving the impression to anonymous
users that an account is required to edit.

 MZ: please engage in discussion and collaboration rather than simply blindly
 reverting any severity or priority change that you happen to disagree with.

Hu.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #7 from Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com ---
Don't we have, like, an entire repo dedicated to configuration settings
different in the code itself and in Wikimedia environment? We could totally use
that here I guess.

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[Bug 53076] Remove $wgMFAnonymousEditing from MobileFrontend extension

2014-01-09 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53076

--- Comment #8 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #7)
 Don't we have, like, an entire repo dedicated to configuration settings
 different in the code itself and in Wikimedia environment? We could totally
 use that here I guess.

We do! But this setting's existence doesn't make any sense on any MediaWiki
wiki, from what I can tell.

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