[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||pavan...@vishvakannada.com

--- Comment #35 from Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it ---
*** Bug 60323 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

--- Comment #34 from Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it ---
All Wikipedias done on the 20th, no surprises.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-10 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #32 from Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org ---
Change 108988 merged by jenkins-bot:
Restore enableWebfonts pref and remove uls-enable

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/108988

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-10 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|PATCH_TO_REVIEW |NEW

--- Comment #33 from Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it ---
(In reply to comment #32)
 Change 108988 merged by jenkins-bot:
 Restore enableWebfonts pref and remove uls-enable
 
 https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/108988

+ https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/76 + https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/111778
= fixed in master absent surprises.
Current plan:
https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Deploymentsdiff=98833oldid=98832

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #30 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
Implementation costs are secondary when they stand in the way of our mission.
You acknowledge that people often do not have the power to manage the systems
they are using. You acknowledge that people need our software to write in their
language and the associated script.

What do you not understand about sharing in the sum of all knowledge because
that is exactly what the consequences of this whole fracas is preventing. It is
what our Wikis are about, it is what all the engeneering that is done is about.
Thanks,
 GerardM

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugzilla.wikimedia.
   ||org/show_bug.cgi?id=48535

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-07 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #31 from Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org ---
Gerard: Please take a high-level discussion of Wikimedia's mission to private
email. Technically offtopic here. Thanks.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-02-06 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #29 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #28)
 I am sad because of your remarks. They clearly assume that people have the
 power to install the fonts on the systems they use. Not necessarily true.

Sure.

 They assume that ULS is not universal ... it exists as an extension to Chrome
 and Firefox. That makes it as close as we can make it to the kind of universal
 you suggest ULS is not.

The fact that browser extensions exist is part of my point... fixing this at
the browser level is saner and should likely be more encouraged on our sites.
That said, the comments at bug 60327 were helpful to me in better understanding
some of the issues here. Apparently people rely on Wikimedia wikis to write on
other sites. If we can provide such a service, there's certainly value in that.

 All in all ULS is successful in what it aims to do. It may be improved upon
 but that does not negate its accomplishments.

Sure, but there's also a question of what value to users is provided given the
implementation costs (whether that's coding, designing the user interface,
making small tweaks, performance debugging, etc.). I personally think better
ULS usage statistics, and overall better messaging about the virtues of ULS,
would significantly help here.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-31 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #27 from MZMcBride b...@mzmcbride.com ---
(In reply to comment #13)
 Why do we actually have to remove this option again? What's wrong with simply
 keeping it and making it default to enabled (therefore enabling ULS by
 default) while still giving people the possibility to disable it at their own
 desire?

User preferences are a last resort; they're a way of giving up. The vast
majority of site visitors can't set user preferences because they don't log in.
The vast majority of logged-in users don't change the default setting (or even
know that they have settings). And, of course, we still don't have global user
preferences (i.e., the ability to set a user preference across Wikimedia
wikis).

In the conversations about ULS, I think some important points are getting lost.
For example, ULS is not actually universal. It only applies to Wikimedia wikis,
not to the rest of the Internet. Perhaps usage statistics would help here, but
it's beginning to seem as though the entire approach being taken here needs a
reevaluation. Users interested in decent font support should be solving the
issue at an operating system or browser level. Solving the issue on a
particular set of sites, at great cost, is beginning to look like the wrong
approach to take.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-31 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #28 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #27)
 (In reply to comment #13)
  Why do we actually have to remove this option again? What's wrong with 
  simply
  keeping it and making it default to enabled (therefore enabling ULS by
  default) while still giving people the possibility to disable it at their 
  own
  desire?
 
 User preferences are a last resort; they're a way of giving up. The vast
 majority of site visitors can't set user preferences because they don't log
 in.
 The vast majority of logged-in users don't change the default setting (or
 even
 know that they have settings). And, of course, we still don't have global
 user
 preferences (i.e., the ability to set a user preference across Wikimedia
 wikis).
 
 In the conversations about ULS, I think some important points are getting
 lost.
 For example, ULS is not actually universal. It only applies to Wikimedia
 wikis,
 not to the rest of the Internet. Perhaps usage statistics would help here,
 but
 it's beginning to seem as though the entire approach being taken here needs a
 reevaluation. Users interested in decent font support should be solving the
 issue at an operating system or browser level. Solving the issue on a
 particular set of sites, at great cost, is beginning to look like the wrong
 approach to take.

I am sad because of your remarks. They clearly assume that people have the
power to install the fonts on the systems they use. Not necessarily true. They
assume that ULS is not universal ... it exists as an extension to Chrome and
Firefox. That makes it as close as we can make it to the kind of universal you
suggest ULS is not. You are clearly under the impression that YOUR experience
is a valid point of reference.. It is not.. When you go to FOSDEM the PC's that
you can use have a French keyboard. Having ULS available to you makes them
usable when you know how to type blindly (this is a first world experience).

All in all ULS is successful in what it aims to do. It may be improved upon but
that does not negate its accomplishments.
Thanks,
   GerardM

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-29 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #21 from Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il ---
(In reply to comment #20)
 Does this mean that the global preference to toggle the default for webfonts
 is
 removed ?

No, the current direction is to remove the preference that enables or disables
all of ULS, so that ULS will always be on if installed, and to introduce a
preference that enables or disables webfonts.

The idea is to enable all of the other ULS features as they were before January
21, but with webfonts disabled by default on Wikimedia sites, and with the
possibility of enabling webfonts by default after careful examination of the
performance impact.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-29 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #22 from Eduard Braun eduard.bra...@gmx.de ---
There is still no comment on *why* we need to remove the preference to disable
all of ULS! Comment 13 was not answered yet. The solution proposed there would
still enable ULS by default (therefore the status quo we had before disabling
ULS for performance reasons) while maintaining the option to opt-out.

I don't see any downsides of this and probably nobody else? Otherwise I assume
there would have been some sort of answer? Why do we remove the option then?

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-29 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #23 from Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org ---
The backlog in bug 46306 should cover that request (before the report turned
its meaning).

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-29 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #24 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #21)
 (In reply to comment #20)
  Does this mean that the global preference to toggle the default for webfonts
  is
  removed ?
 
 No, the current direction is to remove the preference that enables or
 disables
 all of ULS, so that ULS will always be on if installed, and to introduce a
 preference that enables or disables webfonts.
 
 The idea is to enable all of the other ULS features as they were before
 January
 21, but with webfonts disabled by default on Wikimedia sites, and with the
 possibility of enabling webfonts by default after careful examination of the
 performance impact.

Will there be a global switch to enable web fonts for a specific Wiki? (maybe
with the possibility to toggle this on a personal level ?
Thanks,
Gerard

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-29 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #25 from Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il ---
(In reply to comment #24)
 Will there be a global switch to enable web fonts for a specific Wiki?
 (maybe with the possibility to toggle this on a personal level ?

Both possibilities are part of the patch that is being reviewed
( https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/108988/ )

A user will be able to enable it using a checkbox, both logged in and anon (for
anons the preferences will be saved as a cookie, as it is with other ULS
preferences).

There will also be an option that enables webfonts by default for all users of
a given wiki. It will be disabled by default, but may be enabled by default in
the future.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-29 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #26 from Eduard Braun eduard.bra...@gmx.de ---
(In reply to comment #23)
 The backlog in bug 46306 should cover that request (before the report turned
 its meaning).
If this was a reply to my comment 22 I don't see how bug 46306 should be
helping? It was closed (because for a very short period of time the option
actually was there) but actually you'd have to reopen it now (since the option
is gone again by resolving this bug).
Also bug 46306 doesn't contain any reasoning why we should *not* have that
option to disable ULS.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-28 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #18 from Gerrit Notification Bot gerritad...@wikimedia.org ---
Change 108988 had a related patch set uploaded by Ori.livneh:
Restore enableWebfonts pref and remove uls-enable

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/108988

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-28 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #19 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
Does this mean that the global preference to toggle the default for webfonts is
removed ?

If so why, where was this discussed and has it been considered what this does
for the utility of MediaWiki for many Wikipedias, Wiktionaries and what not..
Eh do not forget Wikidata in this..
Thanks,
GerardM

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-28 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #20 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
Does this mean that the global preference to toggle the default for webfonts is
removed ?

If so why, where was this discussed and has it been considered what this does
for the utility of MediaWiki for many Wikipedias, Wiktionaries and what not..
Eh do not forget Wikidata in this..
Thanks,
GerardM

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #15 from Isarra zhoris...@gmail.com ---
Apparently Erik has a problem with what I said here (?), so I'd like to clarify
that this is according to how it currently appears to stand; there could be
several different potential resolutions depending on what is ultimately done
with ULS, such as having the options at an effective load point within ULS
itself (from what I understand this is/was the intent, but I haven't exactly
been much in the loop).

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |PATCH_TO_REVIEW
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #16 from Bartosz Dziewoński matma@gmail.com ---
There's a patch for this pending, covertly not linked for some reason:
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/108988/

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-24 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #17 from Isarra zhoris...@gmail.com ---
Ah, neat. Nevermind, then.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #14 from Isarra zhoris...@gmail.com ---
So I disagree with this bug. I think the option should be there.

I also disagree that having it enabled or disabled should be a global all or
nothing thing. Different projects have different use cases - one that serves
primarily users without compatibility issues, for instance, probably should
have it off by default. On the other hand, ones that serve areas full of users
who often have trouble with the exact things it's trying to address should have
it on by default - but we can't assume that the defaults will ever suit
everyone, or that there won't be overlap. We can, however, try to have sane
defaults so that the most people will be happy just in general.

But that requires an option.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-23 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Sam Reed (reedy) s...@reedyboy.net changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|normal  |enhancement

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Runa Bhattacharjee run...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||60329

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #5 from p858snake p858sn...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #3)
 What percentage of the USA, UK or AU population does it take to insist on the
 fallacy that ULS is clutter and not needed ?

It may surprise you, but some people don't use the ULS system and ultimately
would prefer it to not add any additional {clutter|un-used features} to the
user interface. That doesn't mean we want it disabled for every one or don't
see the usability features and benefits for other users that it's designed to
help.

Personally, I would just prefer to have a proper user preference to control it,
rather than some hacky personal js or css code.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #6 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
When some people remove functionality for everyone, functionality that
enables people to read Wikipedia in the first place, I would qualify them as
egocentric.

When someone comes new to our projects we do not know them, we do not know
their need. So far we have done a poor job at appreciating the differences in
need. The ULS is disabled for technical reasons but it is not because the
performance deteriorated drastically. Seven to ten percent of our public are
negatively affected by this.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #7 from praveenp me.prav...@gmail.com ---
Gerard, you are still saying that people have to suffer ugly coding to
compensate those who need ULS, right?

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #8 from praveenp me.prav...@gmail.com ---
say 93 to 90 percentage. ;-)

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #9 from Eduard Braun eduard.bra...@gmx.de ---
This whole discussion is silly. ULS is not removed so it's still available for
everybody. Nobody wants to take this feature away from others.

The only logic solution is to make the ULS setting to be enabled by default
which will make everybody happy in the end:
- People who don't need ULS or have problems with it can disable it and be
happy
- Everybody else gets ULS by default and can be happy, too.

The whole removing options kamikaze trips some devs are pushing lately will
only make those people angry wo depended on this option, will not improving the
situation at all for anybody else.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #10 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
The WMF is to share in the sum of all knowledge. When a majority prevents this
sharing of knowledge to a minority, it is NOT about ugly coding, it is about
lack of consideration for the consequences to others.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #11 from Ori Livneh o...@wikimedia.org ---
(In reply to comment #10)
 The WMF is to share in the sum of all knowledge. When a majority prevents
 this
 sharing of knowledge to a minority, it is NOT about ugly coding, it is about
 lack of consideration for the consequences to others.

When the local transit authority pulls a city bus from circulation to the depot
for repairs, it is not an attack on the value of public transportation or a
slight to the people who use it. It's just a bus that needs to be repaired.

I understand you have some strong, urgent feelings about this, but I think your
gusto is misspent. There's some engineering work to do and that's that.
Shouting about it won't make it go faster.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #12 from Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org ---
The option will go away again and is temporary (as disabling ULS is temporary).
Also see bug 46306 comment 115.

Gerard: Please take high-level abstract what WMF does discussions somewhere
else ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_Forum#toc etc.).
This bug report is about removing the option to disable ULS. See topic.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #13 from Eduard Braun eduard.bra...@gmx.de ---
(In reply to comment #12)
 The option will go away again and is temporary (as disabling ULS is
 temporary).
 Also see bug 46306 comment 115.

Why do we actually have to remove this option again? What's wrong with simply
keeping it and making it default to enabled (therefore enabling ULS by default)
while still giving people the possibility to disable it at their own desire?

The only thing the whole back and forth with repeatedly enabling / disabling
features and adding / removing options achieves is to annoy *every* user group
at some point and in the end leaves all users behind dissatisfied.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||56292

--- Comment #1 from Nemo federicol...@tiscali.it ---
I doubt it's appropriate to add more and more bugs in contrasting directions in
a moment when the confusion is such, that you call the preference the opposite
of what it is. Anyway, yes, the preference will need to be removed at some
point. Probably this report will have to be duplicated to some report outlining
the future path, which AFAIK is still bug 56433 comment 22, though in the last
24h the confusion has been great.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #2 from Eduard Braun eduard.bra...@gmx.de ---
(In reply to comment #0)
 Adding a user preference contributes to (very visible) user interface clutter
 and should only be done as a last resort.

This statement feels a bit ironic given the fact that the setting actually
removes a whole lot of user interface clutter (ULS) that is not at all needed
by most people in western countries.

Also I think it's better to have one simple setting hidden away in user
preferences than to have a whole bunch of ULS UI elements scattered across the
whole UI.


All in all the gain of this option is much larger than the minimal clutter
that is criticized in this bug.

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #3 from Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com ---
What percentage of the USA, UK or AU population does it take to insist on the
fallacy that ULS is clutter and not needed ?

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[Bug 60304] Remove option to disable UniversalLanguageSelector

2014-01-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60304

--- Comment #4 from Ori Livneh o...@wikimedia.org ---
The preference was simply a means of disabling the extension by default for all
users but allowing users who depend on it to turn it back on. It was not a
product or design decision. It may or may not go away in the future; it is not
my call.

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