[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #8 from Gerry Ashton ashto...@comcast.net --- (In reply to denny vrandecic from comment #4) Here is how the UI should work as long as we support only proleptic Gregorian (G) and proleptic Julian (J) calendars: - when entering a date before 1581, it should understand that date as J (and display a not too obvious option to switch to G). Gregory XIII decreed that 4 October 1582 be followed by 15 October 1582 and this was the earliest the change was observed. If you want the default to be governed only by the year, then Julian should be the default for years less than 1582, rather than 1581 as stated in comment #4. This is probably best, because dates are often given to a precision of one year. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #9 from Gerry Ashton ashto...@comcast.net --- It is best to display Julian next to all dates in that calendar, since many users only have a vague notion of when the Gregorian calendar first entered into force. Indeed, most dates I have examined in Wikkidata before 1752 that were stated or implied to be Julian in Wikipedia were incorrectly stuffed verbatim into Wikidata, suggesting many users never heard of the Julian calendar. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #10 from denny vrandecic vrande...@gmail.com --- Aye. It would be great if all bot requests adding dates before 1920 would be required to demonstrate that they understand the two different calendars, and to explicate how they are handling it. Just reading any dates from the article and Charlesmagne and writing it into Wikidata as proleptic Gregorian because this is the default that happens to the API call is just bad. At least human edits will get usually nudged to be correct by the workflow implemented here. But bots don't get (and should not get) the same kind of nudge. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 Bug 70395 depends on bug 73270, which changed state. Bug 73270 Summary: Always display calendar name for dates that are not Gregorian after year 1581 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73270 What|Removed |Added Status|PATCH_TO_REVIEW |RESOLVED Resolution|--- |FIXED -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #5 from Henning bugzilla.d...@gmail.com --- I am in for that--it is the same behaviour than it was before, although, back then, the front-end parser applied conversion when changing the calendar (which was sort of strange). When having additional calendars, the behaviour should most likely be the same: The parser detects which calendars the date may match to. While picking the most likely (...), there should be hints to switch directly to one of the other calendars. However, in my opinion, this mechanism of, basically, guessing the calendar cannot be mapped properly on displaying dates, even more when having in mind that there really should be more than Gregorian and Julian. The basic options would be to either have one default (Gregorian) only or have no default at all. First would result in dates before 1581 entered in Gregorian not explicitely being annotated about the date being Gregorian (since, on the contrary, all Julian dates would feature an annotation, regardless of being before or after 1581). Latter would result in always displaying the calendar name next to the date (even for Gregorian dates after 1581). Applying any logic guessing the calendar when displaying a date (which is what is done at the moment) feels like a time bomb issue. Although, for an optimization, we could probably apply using Gregorian as default in the time range Gregorian was used, exclusively. Eventually, having no default calendar for dates = 1581 (always display calendar name), and default to Gregorian for dates 1581 (display calendar name when not Gregorian). To me, that appears to be the most practical solution and avoids generating confusion about having multiple defaults. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #6 from denny vrandecic vrande...@gmail.com --- OK, I will not fight for the multiple defaults even though they make total sense to me. But displaying the calendar model always does not hurt. But the calendar model should default to the right model when a date is entered, as stated above, as just discussed with Henning off-Bugzilla, and allow the user to explicitly switch. No translation / transformation of the date should be done when switching the calendar model. It merely switches the calendar model, but the nominal value stays the same. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added Depends on||73270 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added Depends on||73272 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added CC||ght81-wikipe...@yahoo.com --- Comment #7 from tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de --- *** Bug 70398 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. *** -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #4 from denny vrandecic vrande...@gmail.com --- Here is how the UI should work as long as we support only proleptic Gregorian (G) and proleptic Julian (J) calendars: - when entering a date before 1581, it should understand that date as J (and display a not too obvious option to switch to G). - when entering a date between 1581 and 1930, it should understand the date as G per default and allow to easily switch to J instead. - when entering a date after 1930, it should understand the date as G. Although there is no real use case for it, it allows the user to switch to J, but it shouldn't be too obvious. - if a user has explicitly chosen a calendar for a value, it should stick until the user changes it explicitly again - if a user is editing a date, the calendar should stick until the user changes it explicitly I think bug 70398 is a duplicate. It should be merged here and the priority here should be raised to highest. This is currently doing damage to Wikidata. Whether the implementation is happening in the backend or frontend, I do not really care. To make sure: the calendar model only refers to the display (and editing). It always displays (and edits) in the explicitly given calendar model. The backend eventually *always* saves the date in G. I am happy to discuss this as needed. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added CC||vrande...@gmail.com --- Comment #3 from Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de --- Denny: We talked about this. Can you have a look and comment with your thinking on it please? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #2 from Henning bugzilla.d...@gmail.com --- We basically have two bugs about the same issue (the other one being #70398). This one is high/major, the other one highest/major (the only one with highest priority and tagged frontend). Can we, at least, figure out how that is going to move on? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added Severity|normal |critical -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added Priority|Normal |High -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugzilla.wikimedia. ||org/show_bug.cgi?id=70398 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 --- Comment #1 from Henning bugzilla.d...@gmail.com --- Conversion between Gregorian and Julian had been done back when the TimeValue was managed in the front-end. It would definitely by nice to be able to have some widget/gadget that would show/allow converting a value. But some observations more specific to this bug: UI sends a value to the back-end parser. Back-end parser always returns Gregorian value since it does not have the specific time ranges implemented. The parsed value is posted to the formatter which, of course, returns the date in the Gregorian calendar since that one is specified in the parsed value. The UI itself does not feature any logic regarding calendar management anymore. Options: - Implement defaults in the parser which would mean having very specific (kind of magic) logic in the parser. - Implement defaults logic in the front-end overwriting the Gregorian calendar returned by the back-end parser as long as the Gregorian calendar has not been selected specifically. That would mean to have the defaults logic in front-end and back-end (since still needed in back-end formatter). - Evaluate if having multiple defaults is worth having the effort at all. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 70395] Displaying (and editing) the calendar model of time values is confusing
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70395 tobias.gritschac...@wikimedia.de changed: What|Removed |Added Priority|Unprioritized |Normal CC||tobias.gritschacher@wikimed ||ia.de Whiteboard||u=dev c=frontend p=0 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
