[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Changed Subscribers] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a subscriber: Liuxinyu970226.Badaa added a comment.Restricted Application removed a subscriber: Liuxinyu970226. In T137810#4920452, @C933103 wrote: In T137810#4920450, @Liuxinyu970226 wrote: @C933103 Because he said me "shame". I am pretty sure you have misunderstood the English phrase being used. Please check the following link: https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/oh-what-a-shame Sorry. I have nothing to say on this conversation, other than to thank @C933103 for the explanation of the English phrase.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. In T137810#4644978, @Liuxinyu970226 wrote: @Badaa So if you have questions other than "request to cancel a macrolanguage status" which is defined as no-go by SIL staffs, list them, then @GerardM will investigate them. If your question only has that no-go, then let's decline this, if you even can't trust what you've got by email, then sadly there's no way more to resolve this. PS: I don't oppose introducing Classical Mongolian (cmg), I just oppose using mn-mong and the reason is simply per GerardM. ISO-639 is a total mess. What a shame! Then, I think, there is no better way to go introducing Classical Mongolian (cmg).TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. Thanks @C933103 . The dialects and languages are different terms in ISO standard. In every language (whatever individual or macro) has multiple dialects. I think dialects are not relevant in this scope. Buryat and Oirat people can also communicate with Mongolian script or orally (after some hours). As already mentioned, actual problem is they use different scripts. Technically, it's easier to handle such scripts (Mongolian script, Mongolian cyrillic, Buryat (cyrillic), Khalmik (cyrillic) etc.) as individual languages. That is probably the reason why Buriat (bua) is defined as individual language. Defining Mongolian as macro language is non-sense. Oh my God. Bua is now also macro language. That is too exaggerated! A headache.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. In T137810#4638007, @Liuxinyu970226 wrote: @C933103 however there are only one Classical Mongolian Script just like there are only one Modern Standard Arabic. Huh? Phags'pa ≠ Mongolian? @Badaa Actually, the big misconception is that there doesn't exist many Mongolian languages but many scripts. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%92%99%E5%8F%A4%E8%AA%9E%E6%96%B9%E8%A8%80%E5%88%97%E8%A1%A8 I won't repeat the likely problem answers again, unless if your both are even concerning this zhwiki list article. @Liuxinyu970226 Is there any English or Mongolian version? I don't know Chinese.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, thiemowmde, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. In T137810#4627253, @C933103 wrote: Sorry for late reply, @Liuxinyu970226 If the concern of ISO639's RA is "users of the codes understand that part 2 of the standard has a code that includes several coded languages in part 3.", then probably what can be done is ask for cancellation of the mvf code and khk code in the ISO639-3? Yes. Vote +1! Also, another thing is that I have just discovered that there is an ISO639-3 language code cmg for "Classical Mongolian", would that actually be appropriate to be used to describe text written in Classical Mongolian language? If so, it is fully appropriate. We could consider it as old Mongolian language. Actually, the big misconception is that there doesn't exist many Mongolian languages but many scripts. Mongolian pre-classical script, Mongolian classical script, Todo script, Cyrillic script and so one. This leads to complexity for localization, as languages (not scripts) are used for localization process.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, thiemowmde, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. @Liuxinyu970226, I read. I didn't request to copy paste those comments. I just tried to answer following questions of you but I had no idea. Should I change the title and description to not directly mention mn-mong, but a list that includes this as just a candidate? @Badaa and @C933103 ^^?TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, thiemowmde, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. Hi, I have nothing to say... What should we or can we do now???TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, thiemowmde, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. Hi, Thanks Gerard M. I just read the Terms and definitions of ISO 639-3. There are following sentences in paragraph 4.2.2 Individual languages: There is no one definition of “language” that is agreed upon by all and appropriate for all purposes. As a result, there can be disagreement, even among speakers or linguistic experts, as to whether two varieties represent dialects of a single language or two distinct languages. For this part of ISO 639, judgements regarding when two varieties are considered to be the same or different languages are based on a number of factors, including linguistic similarity, intelligibility, a common literature, the views of speakers concerning the relationship between language and identity, and other factors. The following basic criteria are followed. Two related varieties are normally considered varieties of the same language if speakers of each variety have inherent understanding of the other variety (that is, can understand based on knowledge of their own variety without needing to learn the other variety) at a functional level. Where spoken intelligibility between varieties is marginal, the existence of a common literature or of a common ethnolinguistic identity with a central variety that both understand can be strong indicators that they should nevertheless be considered varieties of the same language. Where there is enough intelligibility between varieties to enable communication, the existence of well- established, distinct ethnolinguistic identities can be a strong indicator that they should nevertheless be considered to be different languages. and under 4.2.4Dialects The linguistic varieties denoted by each of the identifiers in this part of ISO 639 are assumed to be distinct languages and not dialects of some language, even though for some purposes some users may consider a variety listed in this part of ISO 639 to be a “dialect” rather than a “language”. In this standard, the term dialect refers to any sub-variety of a language such as might be based on geographic region, age, gender, social class, time period, or the like. From these definitions, I would conclude Mongolian is an individual language rather than macro language. After all, it is correct my first assumption in previous comment. But I tend to think, to change/fix such an aged standard is almost impossible or? Thus, I read furthermore ISO 639-3, there are following: The dialects of a language are included within the denotation represented by the identifier for that language. Thus, each language identifier represents the complete range of all the spoken or written varieties of that language, including any standardized form. For applications in which it is necessary to identify dialects, a separate standard may be developed that provides identifiers for dialects, or that combines identifiers from this or other parts of ISO 639 with other distinguishing identificational qualifiers. See 4.7 for further discussion. ... 4.7Scriptsandregions Some languages are written in different scripts by different user communities. A single language identifier is provided for a language in this part of ISO 639 even though the language may be written in more than one script. For applications in which it is necessary to identify distinct writing systems of a single language, a separate standard may be developed that combines identifiers from this or other parts of ISO 639 with script identifiers from ISO 15924. ... In ISO 15924, Mongolian script is defined as Mong (145) see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15924 I also recognized that at least Firefox and Chrome (webkits) implemented the the lang attributes of "mn-Mong" for html tag. If I declare , then I see correct scrolling behavior for vertical layout. Thus, we need to add the script code mn-Mong. thanks,TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, thiemowmde, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T137810: [Task] Add monolingual language code mn-Mong
Badaa added a comment. Hi, I am from Mongolia. What are the definitions of a macro language and a language? If a language is a (mainly spoken) system to communicate among people then Mongolian is not macro language. Because, I can communicate without any problems with mongolian people in Inner Mongolia (now in China) and the Mongolians in Buriat (now in Russia) even easier than the communication among German in Bayern, in NRW or in Berlin. If a language is a superordinate concept of scripts then Mongolian language has some totally different scripts like traditional (vertical Mongolian), Khalkh (Cyrillic), Buriat (Cyrillic), Halimag (known also as Kalmyk, Cyrillic and Latin) etc. In Mongolia, the official script is Cyrillic since 1947 and tried to revert to Mongolian script. Everyone in Mongolia learns at school both scripts Mongolian script and Cyrillic since 1980 until now. "Mongolian Language law" has been adopted and is effective since July 1st of 2015. In this law, Mongolian script will be introduced in stages and state and local government is to conduct their correspondence in both Cyrillic and Mongolian script. This provision is to be effective starting January 1st of 2025. In my opinion to disjoint too much is wrong way and exaggerated. The Mongolian is not macro language and could be very well handled like German. (de - German, de-AT - Austria, de-CH Switzerland) mn (ᠮᠣᠩᠭᠣᠯ Mongolian vertical) mn-MN (Монгол Cyrillic) mn-CN (ᠮᠣᠩᠭᠣᠯ Mongolian vertical) mn-RU (Буриад Cyrillic) etc. If scripts play in main role then Mongolian is a macro language and it should be handled as mn-Mong, mn-Cyrl etc. But before we to discuss further, we need to clarify and isolate what is a language and what is a script.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T137810EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: BadaaCc: Badaa, ChristianKl, C933103, jhsoby, thiemowmde, Liuxinyu970226, Lydia_Pintscher, GerardM, Aklapper, Zppix, Popolon, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
