Deskana added a comment.
In T131013#4933409, @alexhollender wrote:
What if we allowed people to edit descriptions, but instead of telling them not to capitalize we just automatically forced the first letter to be lowercase when we stored it in Wikidata? Of course this would be obscuring things
alexhollender added a comment.
This comment relates to Conversation 4 (see T131013#4933393 for a key)
@Deskana I wonder if there's a variation of the option 2 you proposed:
Keep the descriptions capitalised, and change the editing experience to tell people that they shouldn't capitalise
alexhollender added a comment.
Yesterday, offline, I mentioned to @Jdlrobson that I think we are discussing too many different things in this task simultaneously, and we should break the conversations out into separate tickets. His response was, ironically, that originally these were separate
JMinor added a comment.
so I guess you could say that all the blame for this rests on my shoulders.
Not even remotely Dan. Use of descriptions as subtitles is widespread and subtitles in latin languages are generally capitalized. I don't think a signle designer or product manager (or
JMinor added a comment.
Yes because as things are right now edits made to the descriptions from Wikipedia are wrong because of this. People are under the mistaken assumption (because of how it is displayed before editing) that they should always capitalize a description
Is there actual evidence
Deskana added a comment.
As one of the people behind capitalising the descriptions in the first place, I (reluctantly) agree that they shouldn't be capitalised any more. I stand by the original decision, and think it was the correct decision at the time, but circumstances have changed.
The
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.
In T131013#4929436, @alexhollender wrote:
Open questions
Assuming we fix the issue with languages that are being incorrectly capitalized, does anyone have an issue with capitalizing Wikidata descriptions in Latin languages on the front-end of Wikipedia?
Yes
Amire80 added a comment.
In T131013#4929585, @alexhollender wrote:
@Amire80
So in other words, what Wikipedia wants (in Latin languages) is inconsistent with what Wikidata recommends.
Sorry if it was already mentioned and I missed it, but where is it written that Wikipedias in the Latin
JMinor added a comment.
I am either misunderstanding this, or there is a tension/contradiction. If an editor expects their Wikidata input to match the output/display on Wikipedia, then the "data store" would indeed be opinionated, specifically towards what Wikipedia wants. This seems like a larger
alexhollender added a comment.
@Amire80
So in other words, what Wikipedia wants (in Latin languages) is inconsistent with what Wikidata recommends.
Sorry if it was already mentioned and I missed it, but where is it written that Wikipedias in the Latin alphabet want this?
My apologies for not
Amire80 added a comment.
So in other words, what Wikipedia wants (in Latin languages) is inconsistent with what Wikidata recommends.
Sorry if it was already mentioned and I missed it, but where is it written that Wikipedias in the Latin alphabet want this?TASK
alexhollender added a comment.
I'm a bit confused because I see people expressing agreement with each other, however it is not clear to me what we're agreeing on. So here is another attempt to clarify things:
Clear
Capitalization does not make sense in certain languages (e.g. Georgian). We
Volker_E added a comment.
Exposing the real, in some cases “wrong” case would make all sense, if there's a connection on where to edit it.
Let's not forget we're automatically uppercasing every article in article namespace, which has provided some kind of order with the drawback of enforcing
JMinor added a comment.
What remains to be decided? How would such a decision be executed?
I agree entirely with your take here:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#3544541
Editing clients shouldn't allow/encourage capitalization (and should in documentation make it clear not to capitalize
Amire80 added a comment.
In T131013#4928746, @Jdlrobson wrote:
The question remains: Do we want to keep capitalisation on languages where it is useful e.g. Deutsch, English, francais.
I'd argue no as it creates tech debt and confusion, but let's make a decision promptly.
I agree.
No
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.
Thank you!TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Lydia_PintscherCc: gerritbot, Mehman97, santhosh, MuhammadShuaib, Liuxinyu970226, matej_suchanek, BukhariSaeed,
gerritbot added a comment.
Change 486102 merged by jenkins-bot:
[mediawiki/skins/MinervaNeue@master] Do not capitalize wikidata descriptions
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/486102TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL
Jdlrobson added a comment.
^ If we were to make this change across the project, this is all that would be needed on Minerva side. Alternatives would limit this styling to latin based languages with a more complicated CSS selector/translateable LESS variable.TASK
gerritbot added a comment.
Change 486102 had a related patch set uploaded (by Jdlrobson; owner: Jdlrobson):
[mediawiki/skins/MinervaNeue@master] Do not capitalize wikidata descriptions
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/486102TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL
Mehman97 added a comment.
In T131013#4832739, @Amire80 wrote:
In T131013#4832714, @Aklapper wrote:
See also T208139: Georgian words are automatically (incorrectly) capitalized when entered about entering.
Sigh.
Georgian is a particularly troublesome example. There is a long controversy about
Amire80 added a comment.
In T131013#4832714, @Aklapper wrote:
See also T208139: Georgian words are automatically (incorrectly) capitalized when entered about entering.
Sigh.
Georgian is a particularly troublesome example. There is a long controversy about the usage of capital letters in its
Sjoerddebruin added a comment.
Example of user that incorrectly uses capitalization using the mobile app, probably due to this behaviour: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/GfkTASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL
Jhernandez added a comment.
Thanks for all the info @RHo!
My guesses definitely don't apply to the Android app, they do apply to edits via mobile web on wikidata.org.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL
Esc3300 added a comment.
I'm not sure about (2.): obviously there are descriptions with caps, possibly due to Android auto-completion, but the bulk of descriptions at Wikidata are bot generated and are unlikely to have incorrect caps.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL
Jdlrobson added a comment.
To summarise the problems im hearing here from all sides:
editors expect how descriptions display to match case when they edit them and this can cause edit confusion
descriptions are inconsistent despite guidelines; wikipedia clients want to be consistent with how they
Esc3300 added a comment.
It seems a bit odd that people view a description "Village in Kafkanistan" and then are expected to type "village in Kafkanistan" for the item of the neighboring village
or get reverted when they change "village in Kafkanistan" to "Village in Kafkanistan".TASK
Jdlrobson added a comment.
mobile edit also applies if wikidata.org mobile domain is being used. And yes @Esc3300 autocapitalisation does happen on a mobile device. I've experienced it first hand. E.g. https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:SetLabelDescriptionAliases/Q31887667/en anyway this is
RHo added a comment.
hi @Jhernandez @Esc3300 - actually the keyboard has been made to default to lowercase when adding/editing Wikidata descriptions specifically to reduce the incidence of incorrect capitalization. In addition we have included a point in the help text explaining not to capitalize
Jhernandez added a comment.
@Esc3300 I believe mobile edit and mobile app edit are edits from the native Android/iOS apps, and this task is about mobile web, which doesn't have a wikidata description editing functionality or is even rolled out, it only is on beta.
If this is the case, mobile
Esc3300 added a comment.
I wonder if this leads people to do descriptions starting with caps when doing mobile edits: https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges=mobile+editTASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL
Esc3300 added a comment.
CONVERT TO ALL CAPS .. REALLY THE BEST ;)TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Esc3300Cc: Esc3300, RHo, Mholloway, Kaartic, Niedzielski, siebrand, Amire80, JKatzWMF,
Nirzar added a comment.
@Jhernandez ooo that's excellent. my css knowledge is fading :(
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Cc: siebrand, Amire80, JKatzWMF, dr0ptp4kt,
Jhernandez added a comment.
@Nirzar Just a note that the current CSS implementation actually sentence
cases the sentence by leveraging the `:first-letter` pseudo-selector so it is
actually doing proper sentence casing and not title casing.
TASK DETAIL
Nirzar added a comment.
the first letter being lowercase gives a sense of incompleteness in a
sentence < like this.
It's difficult to quantify or rationalize this but sentence case has a better
sense of human intervention. in branding otherwise, sometimes companies use all
lowercase to
Dbrant added a comment.
Lest I get back on my hobby horse of auto-generated descriptions...
It seems like what we have here is a conflict of use cases. According to the
official guidelines, the purpose of the description is to "disambiguate items
with the same or similar labels," which is
JMinor added a comment.
@Lydia_Pintscher sorry for my ignorance of WikiData norms. I knew there were
standards for good descriptions, but took from this thread that capitalization
was not covered.
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Deskana added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2244215, @Lydia_Pintscher wrote:
> The community standard is very clearly defined:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Help:Description
The standard for entry of the descriptions is quite well defined indeed. That
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.
The community standard is very clearly defined:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Help:Description
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JKatzWMF added a comment.
Um, what @Jminor said :)
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JKatzWMF added a comment.
If we leave it alone, some will be capitalized and some will not and there is
a cost to inconsistency for the reader. This is a cost we bear throughout the
projects, but the top of the page is where the user first lands orients
themselves and begins digesting
JMinor added a comment.
The problem with "just let the contributor decide" is that, in this case, the
editors don't seem to have a consistent policy or knowledge of how these will
be used. They edit one description at a time, but this inconsistency only
becomes problematic in contexts where
Amire80 added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2242968, @Deskana wrote:
> Fair point, so allow me to explain the rationale. This change was made
because having a lower case description created a capitalisation inconsistency
with the article layout; the article
Deskana added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2242692, @Lydia_Pintscher wrote:
> In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2241518, @Deskana wrote:
>
> > What user value do you propose this change adds? So far I see mostly
hyperbole in this task (e.g.
Amire80 added a comment.
I agree with @Lydia_Pintscher and @Sjoerddebruin. Just show whatever Wikidata
has.
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To: Amire80
Cc: siebrand, Amire80,
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2241518, @Deskana wrote:
> In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2241499, @dr0ptp4kt wrote:
>
> > @dbrant, @JMinor, @Nirzar, @JKatzWMF, thoughts on consistently just
keeping the user-provided casing?
Deskana added a comment.
Incidentally, this afternoon I asked a native Dutch speaker whether this
looked wrong in Dutch, showing him the specific example cited in the task, and
he said that it looked fine.
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Deskana added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2241499, @dr0ptp4kt wrote:
> @dbrant, @JMinor, @Nirzar, @JKatzWMF, thoughts on consistently just keeping
the user-provided casing?
What user value do you propose this change adds? So far I see mostly
hyperbole
Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2240368, @dr0ptp4kt wrote:
> @Lydia_Pintscher and @Nirzar, what's the expectation here? I think in the
apps there's capitalization of the `description` field (CC @JMinor and @dbrant
in case they can add
Deskana added a comment.
@dr0ptp4kt The history here is that this was done because it worked better
and looked more correct in English. In honesty, we neglected to consider how
this would look in other languages. In retrospect, it's obvious that some
languages have different rules and
Sjoerddebruin added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2240366, @Jhernandez wrote:
> Doesn't seem to be a CSS added feature.
I see this in the source code:
.heading-holder .tagline:first-letter {
text-transform: capitalize
}
TASK DETAIL
Jhernandez added a comment.
Doesn't seem to be a CSS added feature.
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Cc: Jhernandez, bmansurov, Aklapper, Sjoerddebruin, D3r1ck01,
Sjoerddebruin added a comment.
In https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T131013#2231558, @bmansurov wrote:
> Suer it can. Any links to actual pages where we can see this?
Well, if you use the random function on the Dutch Wikipedia you can see a lot
of examples. Anyway, I've used the
bmansurov added a comment.
Suer it can. Any links to actual pages where we can see this?
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Cc: bmansurov, Aklapper, Sjoerddebruin,
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