[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  It is in standard [https://translatewiki.net/wiki/Category:ISO_15924:Hani ISO 
15924], and it was still used officially until the mid of the 20th century. It 
is still used at least by scholars and some people that like to continue to use 
it in Vietnam.
  
  - [[:File:1938 Vietnamese Birth Certificate in Nôm.jpg]] 1938
  - [[:File:Vietnamese_Mixed_Script_in_the_Ho_Chi_Minh_Museum_in_2016.jpg]] 1966

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  Is vi-x-Q8201 a standard? If it's not, why for create a new name please? They 
are one variant of Hani characters (called Hán tự (漢字) in vietnamese) chữ Nôm

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn changed the task status from "Stalled" to "Open".

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  Wikidata’s Vietnamese-language lexemes are currently using `vi-x-Q8201` as 
the language code for chữ Nôm, as a workaround for this issue:
  
  phở : 얾, 頗
  râu : 鬍, 酺, 魶, 鯁

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  Generally, in en.wiktionary, article in the Category:Sino-Vietnamese_word 
have their vi-Hani version.
  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Sino-Vietnamese_words

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  On the vietnamese wikipedia:
  
  https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chữ_Hán
  
  - 名 “danh”
  - 書 “thư”
  - 文 “văn”
  - 字 “tự”
  - 漢字 “Hán tự”.
  
  Or more specialized article: https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chữ_Nôm

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Popolon]

Popolon added a comment.


  The Wiktionary as a lot of samples in vi-Hani.
  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/留#Vietnamese

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 changed the task status from "Open" to "Stalled".
Esc3300 added a comment.


  This is still lacks samples, despite the request at T180345#6710271 
 (see 
Requirements_for_a_new_language_code 
)
  
  I think we should //decline// this. If still needed, new requests can be made 
(ideally one per language).

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  In T180345#6710271 , 
@Nikki wrote:
  
  > I think it would be useful to see some examples of how these would be 
used/what they would be used for.
  >
  > I'm not sure that `ko-kore` (or `ko-hani`) would be the best way to add 
text containing hanja because wouldn't we want it to be linked to the 
corresponding hangul? Years ago, I proposed a "hanja" property for Korean 
(proposal here 
) . 
It was rejected at the time but I still think that would be the best way to do 
it and perhaps it would be a good idea to revisit it.
  >
  > I imagine it's a similar situation for `vi-hani`.
  
  I also proposed a chữ Nôm property 
 for lexemes 
that was similarly rejected in favor of a semantically distinct property 
. I remain convinced about the 
need for the property I proposed, but I haven’t had a chance to press that 
point. For the time being, there isn’t really a path to bring the Vietnamese 
Wiktionary’s large body of chữ Nôm data to Wikidata in a semantically correct 
way.
  
  Anyhow, that proposal only made sense in the context of a lexeme. A “chữ Nôm 
name” property on an item would have to be qualified by applies to name of item 
(P5168) , with a constraint that 
it could only apply to a Vietnamese label, and there would have to be separate 
properties for “chữ Nôm given name”, “chữ Nôm birth name”, “chữ Nôm 
inscription”, etc. I think a monolingual language code would be cleaner.
  
  Another issue is that the Vietnamese Wikisource currently hosts a number of 
older Vietnamese works with the Latin and chữ Nôm transcriptions either side by 
side  or on 
separate pages . 
I suspect that, in the long term, better supporting this diglossia will require 
software support for `vi-hani` as a language code somewhere or other.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[C933103]

C933103 added a comment.


  Should the task be spilt to two?
  
  In T180345#6709988 , 
@Mahir256 wrote:
  
  > I'd just like to note that the Suppress-Script value for Korean according 
to the official subtag registry 

 is in fact Kore (meaning ko-Kore as a code is redundant in the eyes of a 
number of organizations).
  
  The thing with the "Kore" script tag is that, it indicate mixed use of Korean 
Hangul (Phonetic) and Hanja (Ideographic) characters, but it didn't indicate 
the ratio.
  Currently in regular Korean text, almost everything are being written in 
Hangul. But from time to time there can still be a few common shorthand Hanja 
characters in use in Korean text, in addition pf writing out Hanja as 
disambiguation in some situation. So I guess you can say it is a mixed script 
as well.
  On the other hand, what I originally have in mind was that, since many Korean 
term, especially proper noun, are originated or created based on Han characters 
and that they can be written as Hanja completely, it would not be possible to 
write Hanja for terms natively used in Korean or terms imported from Western 
languages in modern time. Such that, there are terms that can partially be 
written in Hanja but other parts need to be written as Hangul instead, like 
"Seoul Special City" or "Asiana Airlines", thus constitute another forn of 
mixed usage.
  I guess one can say it should use the "Hani" script tag instead since the 
intention is to show the Hanja characters of the terms, but then a problem is I 
don't think Hangul characters are to be expected for the Hani scripte value?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Nikki]

Nikki added a comment.


  I think it would be useful to see some examples of how these would be 
used/what they would be used for.
  
  I'm not sure that `ko-kore` (or `ko-hani`) would be the best way to add text 
containing hanja because wouldn't we want it to be linked to the corresponding 
hangul? Years ago, I proposed a "hanja" property for Korean (proposal here 
) . 
It was rejected at the time but I still think that would be the best way to do 
it and perhaps it would be a good idea to revisit it.
  
  I imagine it's a similar situation for `vi-hani`.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 added a comment.


  I'd just like to note that the Suppress-Script value for Korean according to 
the official subtag registry 

 is in fact Kore (meaning ko-Kore as a code is redundant in the eyes of a 
number of organizations).

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Mbch331]

Mbch331 added a comment.


  In T180345#6458503 , 
@jhsoby wrote:
  
  > These seem reasonable to me, but I'd like to see if @Amire80 has any 
comments.
  
  Ping @Amire80 Could you please respond?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[mxn]

mxn added a comment.


  Adding chữ Nôm would be a nice improvement for Vietnamese-language Wikimedia 
projects as well as for federated projects. For example, an infobox at the 
Vietnamese Wikipedia could display the historical chữ Nôm name of a place or 
person. OpenStreetMap currently has a nonnegligible number of chữ Nôm names 
, even though the 
project is supposed to focus on current details rather than historical details. 
It’s likely that the people who contributed these names would be less likely to 
add them to OSM if they were able to add them to Wikidata, where historical 
nuances could be better accounted for (like the distinction between Ho Chi Minh 
City and Saigon).

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Mbch331]

Mbch331 added a comment.


  In T180345#6458503 , 
@jhsoby wrote:
  
  > These seem reasonable to me, but I'd like to see if @Amire80 has any 
comments.
  
  Ping @Amire80 Can you respond to jhsoby?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[Bugreporter]

Bugreporter removed a parent task: T144272: [DO NOT USE] new monolingual 
language code requests for Wikidata (tracking)  [superseded by #language_codes].

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[jhsoby]

jhsoby added a subscriber: Amire80.
jhsoby added a comment.


  These seem reasonable to me, but I'd like to see if @Amire80 has any comments.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T180345: Add monolingual language code vi-hani, ko-kore

[jhsoby]

jhsoby added a project: Language codes.

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