[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T236295: integrate exceptions as part of Wikibase datamodel of the entity concerned

2021-06-20 Thread Esc3300
Esc3300 added a comment.


  In T236295#7163227 , 
@ChristianKl wrote:
  
  > I still believe that is_exception_to_constraint in the reference section 
would be the best way. (I create the property proposal)
  >
  > I still don't see the case against that proposal. Can someone make it here?
  
  Maybe the exception https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16645 for most constraints 
on https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P5086 : it could be a bunch of 
statements on https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16645 , but it's unclear if that 
would really be better.
  
  OTH, for T275392  anything that is 
based on the items directly seems preferable, even if it may not be 
theoretically appealing to non-contributors. It's still a valid constraint for 
these items and exceptions should be double-checked.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T236295

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To: Esc3300
Cc: abian, ChristianKl, Esc3300, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Aklapper, Bugreporter, 
Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Agabi10, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T236295: integrate exceptions as part of Wikibase datamodel of the entity concerned

2021-06-19 Thread abian
abian added a comment.


  For me, constraints should constrain (unless they have the level of 
suggestion defined), and exceptions should be exceptional. Those cases where 
the number of exceptions ends up skyrocketing are cases where either the 
constraints were conceived trying to generalize too small, specific and biased 
a set of cases, or there's a broader underlying problem of knowledge 
representation that is difficult to address and users choose to add exceptions 
to ignore it. The first reason for this task ("Currently the way to store 
exceptions is not scalable") is an effect of these problems, and I think we 
should solve them instead of thinking of a way to add even more exceptions. The 
Property that motivates this task (`P225`) is also mentioned at 
Wikidata:2020_report_on_Property_constraints#Exceptions 

 in the context of some of the problems caused by exceptions; see also T244045 
.
  
  Property constraints are part of the intensional 
 
definition of each Property, and their usefulness lies in the fact that we can 
check their consistency with an enumerative definition, of which all uses of 
the Property are automatically part. A finite list of current exceptions 
override this automatic enumerative definition, but it does so alongside, or 
with reference to, the intensional definition, which applies to a generally 
infinite number of possible present and future entities. Ideally, the 
intensional definition should never refer to the enumeration or vice versa, and 
in the case of Wikidata it's worse because these references are not controlled: 
as exceptions are implemented now, I can delete a constrained statement and 
still have the Item listed as an exception; and, as proposed to be implemented 
in this task, I could delete a constraint and still have exceptions to it.
  
  For when there are many exceptions I would suggest either using the 
suggestion level or using mechanisms other than standard Property constraints; 
luckily, today there are many ways to check compliance with complex rules that 
don't involve the Property constraint system.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T236295

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To: abian
Cc: abian, ChristianKl, Esc3300, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Aklapper, Bugreporter, 
Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Agabi10, Scott_WUaS, Wikidata-bugs, 
aude, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T236295: integrate exceptions as part of Wikibase datamodel of the entity concerned

2021-06-18 Thread ChristianKl
ChristianKl added a comment.


  I still believe that is_exception_to_constraint in the reference section 
would be the best way. (I create the property proposal)

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T236295

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To: ChristianKl
Cc: ChristianKl, Esc3300, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Aklapper, Bugreporter, 
Invadibot, maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Agabi10, Scott_WUaS, abian, 
Wikidata-bugs, aude, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T236295: integrate exceptions as part of Wikibase datamodel of the entity concerned

2021-06-15 Thread Esc3300
Esc3300 added a comment.


  Yes. The qualifier approach should work well for point #3 you added above: 
"No easy way to mark a violation as exception" when many items fail the 
constraints, but once in a while a value is accurate and should be marked as 
double-checked.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Esc3300
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maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Agabi10, Scott_WUaS, abian, Wikidata-bugs, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T236295: integrate exceptions as part of Wikibase datamodel of the entity concerned

2021-06-15 Thread Bugreporter
Bugreporter added a comment.


  A qualifier does not solve all things: see 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/is_exception_to_constraint.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Bugreporter
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maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Agabi10, Scott_WUaS, abian, Wikidata-bugs, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T236295: integrate exceptions as part of Wikibase datamodel of the entity concerned

2021-06-15 Thread Bugreporter
Bugreporter renamed this task from "Define exceptions to constraint as 
qualifiers of statements with property (instead of as a qualifier of the 
constraint statement)" to "integrate exceptions as part of Wikibase datamodel 
of the entity concerned".

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T236295

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To: Bugreporter
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maantietaja, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Agabi10, Scott_WUaS, abian, Wikidata-bugs, 
aude, Mbch331
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