[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[Sarai-WMDE]

Sarai-WMDE closed this task as "Invalid".
Sarai-WMDE added a comment.


  This ticket is no longer relevant because we're deprecating our legacy design 
system, WiKit (See T327532 )

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To: Sarai-WMDE
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Tonina_Zhelyazkova_WMDE, Ladsgroup, Michael, egardner, AnneT, Jakob_WMDE, 
Sarai-WMDE, Aklapper, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, Astuthiodit_1, STH, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[egardner]

egardner added a comment.


  In T285045#7247496 , 
@Addshore wrote:
  
  > @egardner do we already have some form of timeline for when we might end up 
using vue3?
  
  This is something we (WMF & WMDE together) can hopefully hammer out once we 
decide on T286948  at the upcoming 
Vue.js Developer Summit next week.

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Tonina_Zhelyazkova_WMDE, Ladsgroup, Michael, egardner, AnneT, Jakob_WMDE, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[Addshore]

Addshore added a comment.


  Just dropping in from T270510: IE browser tests are flaky on saucelabs 
[timebox: 1 day] 
  
  Is this something we want to invest time in?
  
  > One example is Vue 3. Vue's new reactivity features rely on Proxy objects, 
which just don't exist in ES5. Supporting IE will block us from upgrading to 
the latest version of Vue regardless of whether a build tool is used or not. 
(see here for a list of some of Vue 3's benefits)
  
  @egardner do we already have some form of timeline for when we might end up 
using vue3?
  At some point in the past year we did briefly discuss T273592: Migrate WMDE 
vuejs projects to vue3 
  
  On the whole the general direction this is going in makes me feel like we 
could close this ticket and also T270510 
 as it doesn't seem too flakey and 
annoying? and just wait for time to decide for us

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Tonina_Zhelyazkova_WMDE, Ladsgroup, Michael, egardner, AnneT, Jakob_WMDE, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[egardner]

egardner added a comment.


  I understand this is a decision for WMDE, but I'd like to offer a little 
perspective from the WMF side of things.
  
  **I'd argue that we are reaching a point where the cost of retaining IE11 
support is becoming costly enough to outweigh the benefits**. @wiese is right 
that our lack of a front-end build tool makes things more difficult than they 
need to be (something I hope we can remedy soon). However, as the wider 
front-end ecosystem moves on, we will increasingly see places where the 
"compatibility gap" is so wide that even tools like Babel can't bridge it. 
Supporting IE11 will block (or at least complicate) our adoption of certain 
software.
  
  One example is Vue 3. Vue's new reactivity features rely on Proxy objects, 
which just don't exist in ES5. Supporting IE will block us from upgrading to 
the latest version of Vue regardless of whether a build tool is used or not.
  
  Dropping IE11 support may also allow us to run a lighter-weight toolchain, 
even if we do end up adopting some build tools. Vite is a modern build tool 
that seems to have a lot of potential – additional plugins are required to 
support Vue 2 and to enable generation of ES5-compatible bundles.
  
  I'm hopeful that we'll soon reach a point where WMF and WMDE can combine our 
efforts into a single component library (see T286946 
 and the upcoming developer summit). 
If we create a shared library and migrate our projects to that library, but 
remain on Vue 2, we will at some point have to go back and re-migrate things to 
Vue 3. Dropping IE support and moving to Vue 3 sooner than later may save us 
all a non-trivial amount of work in the future.
  
  As of July 2021, IE traffic across all sites 

 is down to 0.6%. Can we provide these users with an adequate no-JS experience 
to benefit the vast majority who don't use a legacy browser?

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Tonina_Zhelyazkova_WMDE, Ladsgroup, Michael, egardner, AnneT, Jakob_WMDE, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[Ladsgroup]

Ladsgroup added a comment.


  My 2c from a rather different perspective.
  
  Support for IE11 in WMF is in this weird stage of "no support for new 
products but keeping support for widely used/old interfaces" but it's not going 
to stay like this forever, we drop support for old browsers once a year or so, 
even if frontend-wise we don't push for dropping support, the platform of IE11 
might lose support (e.g. due to TLS versions or ciphersuites it supports which 
happened with several versions of Firefox and IE9)
  
  My biggest point is that we are currently using wikit for new features now 
and I assume (just assumption) by the time we reach rewriting the old UI with 
wikit, the whole support for IE11 would be already dropped by core. So I don't 
see the point of keeping IE support in wikit or tie it to core's support of 
IE11.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[Sarai-WMDE]

Sarai-WMDE added a comment.


  That's a very important point, @wiese. My message reinforces a relationship 
of causality that doesn't have to be, not necessarily. There's always the 
chance to still provide support for IE, even if we're based on ES6, and 
deciding how to do so, at scale, might even help us avoid making decisions for 
specific browsers in the future. I forgot to link the notes from the last Front 
end standards meeting  
with WMF's Design system team, where the need to rely on progressive 
enhancement was mentioned while discussing the history behind this task.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[wiese]

wiese added a comment.


  A data point to prevent anchoring: the causality "only use the ES6 standard 
to implement new features, and thus we'll be dropping optimal support for IE11" 
(T178356 's gist; @Sarai-WMDE is 
just the messenger) does not exist. It is only valid in a – somewhat artificial 
– universe where there is no way for a computer to help us (stern look at 
T199004 ).
  
  However, for years, WMDE has been implementing in languages (e.g. TypeScript, 
less/sass) and using technologies (webpack, postcss) which allow us to have the 
development enviroment which makes us the most productive //and// have the 
browser support required at the same time – in this respect we //can// have the 
cake and eat it, too (with constraints, but those are not reached).
  
  (This is not an argument for or against IE support, but an argument for 
asking the right questions and keeping discussion chains unentangled unless 
combining them provides a benefit)

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[Sarai-WMDE]

Sarai-WMDE added a subscriber: Lydia_Pintscher.
Sarai-WMDE added a comment.


  Just following up on Tonina's message and pinging @Lydia_Pintscher, since she 
was part of the original discussion: I agree that the Wikidata/Wikibase team 
should make explicit whether we uniformly abide by the Foundation's decision to 
only use the ES6 standard to implement new features, and thus we'll be dropping 
optimal support for IE11 (first for new features, and later for existing 
features and tools once their functionality is "replaced or repaired").
  
  I would support keeping this ticket in case we want to include our own 
supporting arguments (as Tonina mentioned) in our response/agreement with the 
WMF's compatibility stance. Once our standpoint is documented, we could create 
a new ticket to "Drop IE support in WiKit" (and proceed with the technical task 
of removing the IE browser tests, and subsequently modify ADR 10 
).

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

[Tonina_Zhelyazkova_WMDE]

Tonina_Zhelyazkova_WMDE added a comment.


  WiKit is supposed to be used not only in new projects but also in already 
existing ones (Data Bridge, Termbox, Tainted References). As far as I know, 
those front ends support IE11.
  The decision to drop support for IE11 in WiKit must only happen after we know 
we are dropping it for all of our products.
  
  The decision should come from the Wikidata/Wikibase product managers. We (the 
developers) can provide PMs with a list of reasons why IE11 is hard to support 
but refrain from any other user-facing decisions. 
  I think the goal of this ticket should be to collect that list of reasons 
from the developers' perspective, so we can make the ticket actionable.
  Otherwise, it will just sit on the board for a long time. Pinging @Addshore 
as the author. What do you think?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T285045: Consider dropping IE support in wikit

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