This is still up in the air but it has been mentioned on UK television
news in various contexts recently: because the business model of free
online newspapers funded by advertising doesn't seem to be brining in
the bucks, there is much discussion in the media as to whether online
newspapers will
We cite books which aren't available online and in some cases out of
print. I don't see the problem.
On 07/08/2009, Bod Notbod bodnot...@gmail.com wrote:
This is still up in the air but it has been mentioned on UK television
news in various contexts recently: because the business model of free
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:40 AM, michael westmichaw...@gmail.com wrote:
We cite books which aren't available online and in some cases out of
print. I don't see the problem.
I take your point. Although a difference strikes me. I'm not sure it's
valid but I'll throw it out there.
Where a book
This is still up in the air but it has been mentioned on UK television
news in various contexts recently: because the business model of free
online newspapers funded by advertising doesn't seem to be brining in
the bucks, there is much discussion in the media as to whether online
newspapers
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 4:20 AM, Emily Monroebluecalioc...@me.com wrote:
Humans tend to unconsciously focus on the negative. This is something
we do automatically. It probably makes sense in terms of evolutionary
history. It's better to avoid fire than get burned. It's better to
avoid water
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Andrew Grayandrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
More broadly, there's a good side and a bad side to this. The bad
side, yes, a lot of our existing references will break, and it'll be a
bit harder to write good, robustly cited, articles in the future. On
the plus side,
http://business.in.com/column/zen-garden/daddy-has-kira-to-thank/812/0
'Daddy has Kira to Thank: The world's most democratic storehouse of knowledge
really began in a one-room school in Alabama; it took shape in a little girl's
hospital bed'
I decide to ask him that one question:
Tell us about
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Charles
Matthewscharles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:
Note the tension between you can edit this page right now,
which is part of the credo, and you can verify this fact right now,
which isn't...
...unless it's a BLP, right?
gwe...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm a little skeptical that this is any of the real reasons, given the
fallibility of human memory, and never seeing anything like this
mentioned in materials from the early days - but this would be a great
reason, because this doctor is not described as publishing
Bod Notbod wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Charles
Matthewscharles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:
Note the tension between you can edit this page right now,
which is part of the credo, and you can verify this fact right now,
which isn't...
...unless it's a BLP, right?
Hoi,
I think this is relevant and of interest to us all...
Thanks,
GerardM
Report and related press release of interest...
The Minority Rights Group International (MRG) in collaboration with UNICEF
has recently released their State of the World's Minorities and Indigenous
Peoples
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Charles
Matthewscharles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com wrote:
Note the tension between you can edit this page right now,
which is part of the credo, and you can verify this fact right now,
which isn't...
...unless it's a BLP, right?
You say that why? There isn't
Good idea though! What does eeryone think of writing a special Editnotice
for BLP articles? More effective possibly than the talkpage notice.
I can speak from experience, however, that some will still ignore. However,
every little bit helps, yes?
I am not speaking of writing policy there, mind
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Bod Notbod bodnot...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:40 AM, michael westmichaw...@gmail.com wrote:
We cite books which aren't available online and in some cases out of
print. I don't see the problem.
I take your point. Although a difference
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Al Tallymajorly.w...@googlemail.com wrote:
snip
Thing is, I expect most people don't keep newspapers, but people do have
plenty of books, easily accessible in libraries and in their homes (and easy
to buy). I don't know the case for other people, but in my
I can speak from experience, however, that some will still ignore.
However, every little bit helps, yes?
I agree, every bit helps.
As for ignoring issue: I have a (somewhat badly formatted) edit notice
telling people to please use the {{talkback}} temp, and sign/date
their message. I
Al Tally wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Bod Notbod wrote:
I take your point. Although a difference strikes me. I'm not sure it's
valid but I'll throw it out there.
Where a book (possibly out of print) is cited we should be giving
details of Title, Author, ISBN and possibly
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Ray Saintonge wrote:
# It does not take long for a pile of old newspapers to reach the
ceiling.
You've tested this? :-)
- --
Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
Carcharoth wrote:
Some stuff in newspapers is really horribly
unreliable. Books as well. But the best books are nearly always better
than newspapers. Even if a book is written based in part on newspaper
reports, it should go beyond that and establish firmer reliability and
more research into
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Ray Saintonge wrote:
# It does not take long for a pile of old newspapers to reach the
ceiling.
You've tested this? :-)
- --
Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
I have, and God bless people that save old newspapers, but
Gwern Branwen wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Andrew Gray wrote:
More broadly, there's a good side and a bad side to this. The bad
side, yes, a lot of our existing references will break, and it'll be a
bit harder to write good, robustly cited, articles in the future. On
the plus side,
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Ray Saintongesainto...@telus.net wrote:
I don't think that Murdoch's proposal is viable in the long run. Who
will be wanting to pay for so much ephemeral material. What would it
say of readers who bind themselves to one site because that is all they
can
If these things come to pass, it can reasonably be expected that
almost all libraries in the developed world will subscribe to such
newspapers as the WSJ and the NYT, and make them available online to
library members in their communities. This will of course require
first, knowing about this,
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 8:19 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
Interesting examples. For both O.J. and Phil I would assume we can create
fairly complete biographies using appropriate souces.
I am doubtful that we could really make a biography for Gary Glitter
without a lot of unacceptable sources
2009/8/7 Bod Notbod bodnot...@gmail.com:
Savvy media types have made the point that the payment system will
have to be real slick to succeed. It will have to be a one click
payment after registration. Sounds feasible to me. I think I'd be OK
lobbing in 10p (16c) for certain things. Another
Just to address a point about collecting old newspapers (not new ones)
and making those old yellowed decayed faded and spotted newspapers
available online.
Firstly, there is already a company which does this. That is, makes
old newspapers available for viewing online. I use it all the time.
I have access to a newspaper library through my library card, don't
other Wikipedians have a similar access, or at least realise such things
exist? This idea that newspapers will lose utility as a source if they
go behind pay-walls is a non-starter as far as I can make out, because
that would
Because I consider a biography to be an appropriate reduction of a
person's life, while a biography is an inappropriate reduction
focusing on one famous bit and a lot of silly or scandalous bits. That
a person is a pedophile might be interesting to appropriately document
in a biography,
I have access to a newspaper library through my library card, don't
other Wikipedians have a similar access, or at least realise such things
exist? This idea that newspapers will lose utility as a source if they
go behind pay-walls is a non-starter as far as I can make out, because
that
David Goodman wrote:
A much more serious problem is the availability of this material in
the less-developed world, which includes a great many people who rely
on the English Wikipedia--many of whom do not have practical access to
any good library.
Quite. But then the traditional solution has
The flip side of the problem is, while in theory all information is
verifiable, most citations are checked with a thoroughness and multiplicity
of eyeballs in direct correlation to ease of access. If information becomes
pay-only for major sources then false information or selective and
The problem of lack of availability has been with us since the year
3000 BC. We can't solve every problem right away. That we can specify
a citation stating that *if* you had a way to get the item, you could
verify it, satisfies our policy requirement that an item is published
(made
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 9:09 PM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote:
Reuters to Murdoch and AP: Go ahead and kill yourselves. Idiots.:
http://blogs.reuters.com/mediafile/2009/08/04/why-i-believe-in-the-link-economy/
Yes, I'm inclined to believe the link economy works with a caveat
after
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:20 PM, FT2ft2.w...@gmail.com wrote:
The purposes of citations divide roughly into two overlapping needs - 1/ for
people who do edit to verify stated content facts, 2/ for readers to find
further information and (sometimes) to check content.
Nicely done, sir.
Yes, as
As far as when to remove citations to subscription web-sites and when
to leave them intact as convenience links, I use the following rule:
Part A or 1) *If* the article lives exclusively online, then it gets
removed. We should not be requiring or pandering for, commercial
activity, we as
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:30 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
That something is not yet available online, shouldn't be a factor in
considering whether or not we should cite it. Even the library of Bora
Bora *could* (theoretically at least) request a copy of an item for
you, provided you have the
I found this interesting:
http://www.malcolmcoles.co.uk/blog/cited-uk-papers-wikipedia/
Basically, en:wp cites the BBC and Guardian more than any other UK
news outlet. Because they're easy to link to.
Paywall for generic news = sink without trace.
- d.
Worldcat is the freely available listing of the contents of hundreds
perhaps thousands of libraries. If you cannot locate a print item
there, it's very likely it is fictitious. A small caveat in that,
items which are not quite ancient, but not modern (say medieval) may
have names that are
David that isn't what I stated.
I said if it lives *exclusively* online. The word exclusive means
solely, only, alone, uniquely.
If the item has been printed in some format, it would not be an
exclusively online item so Part A would not apply to it.
Will Johnson
-Original Message-
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:44 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
As far as when to remove citations to subscription web-sites and when
to leave them intact as convenience links, I use the following rule:
I'm sorry, you've completely and utterly confused me... so let's look:
Part A or 1) *If* the
2009/8/8 wjhon...@aol.com:
David that isn't what I stated.
I said if it lives *exclusively* online. The word exclusive means
solely, only, alone, uniquely.
If the item has been printed in some format, it would not be an
exclusively online item so Part A would not apply to it.
That still
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Bod Notbodbodnot...@gmail.com wrote:
snip
I found a new article the other day and it was all about this guy who
was described as the greatest child genius the world has ever seen.
There was a long list of verifications although not enough to cover
most of
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, David Gerarddger...@gmail.com wrote:
I found this interesting:
http://www.malcolmcoles.co.uk/blog/cited-uk-papers-wikipedia/
Basically, en:wp cites the BBC and Guardian more than any other UK
news outlet. Because they're easy to link to.
Paywall for
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:52 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
I would submit however, that every print publication over the past 100
years or perhaps even 200, lives in at least one worldcat repository
(library) somewhere in the world.
OK, thank you. I expect I'll be spending a lot of time on that
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:00 AM, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
Just combed back through my last 500 contribs. Can't find it. If an
article had been deleted would it disappear from my contribs?
Yes.
05:24, 30 July 2009 David Eppstein (talk | contribs | block) deleted
James
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:00 AM, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:44 AM, Bod Notbodbodnot...@gmail.com wrote:
snip
I found a new article the other day and it was all about this guy who
was described as the greatest child genius the world has ever seen.
That's right. So in my article on Jodie Foster I state that her
brother Buddy wrote a book in which he claims that the name Jodie
(which we know was not her birth name) was invented as a sort of
honorary name based on her mother's lesbian lover's name, Josephine
Dominguez... Jo... D.
And I
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Bod Notbodbodnot...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:00 AM, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
Just combed back through my last 500 contribs. Can't find it. If an
article had been deleted would it disappear from my contribs?
Yes.
05:24, 30
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
I also looked at the deleted version of the article, and it was a copy
of this, I think:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_Sidis
Yes, the intro is. Definitely. Then I think the hoaxer played around
with the
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:30 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
The problem of lack of availability has been with us since the year
3000 BC. We can't solve every problem right away. That we can specify
a citation stating that *if* you had a way to get the item, you could
verify it, satisfies our
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:17 AM, Bod Notbodbodnot...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
I also looked at the deleted version of the article, and it was a copy
of this, I think:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_Sidis
Yes,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:15 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
At times what I've done is say would you be willing to quote the exact
passage with quotation marks? Sometimes that works if I'm skeptical
that they really paraphrased it accurately, and if they are willing to
do that, but I wouldn't
I'm not really seeing any solution in your words.
Would you then change policy to state that if an item is behind a
subscription wall, then it cannot be cited at all, regardless of
whether others can access it freely (with an existing subscription,
library card, or on site). Is that what you'd
It's a tiny bit highbrow, so I wouldn't expect really that much of it.
When a person (like myself) can easily research a subject and show that
no he did not win the Fat Butt Award from MTV in 2005 and no he did not
write a book called How to Have Sex with Dolphins and Get Paid For it,
and no he
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:24 AM, Carcharothcarcharot...@googlemail.com wrote:
When you get the admin tools, you get a neat little link saying
deleted user contributions. There is also something called a block
button, but mine is buried under six feet or so of dust. I really must
log out one
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:26 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
I'm not really seeing any solution in your words.
Would you then change policy to state that if an item is behind a
subscription wall, then it cannot be cited at all, regardless of
whether others can access it freely (with an existing
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Bod Notbod bodnot...@gmail.com wrote:
Do you get the sense that wp:en *needs* more admins?
If not, I'm happy where I am, really.
That's fair, but it's really the wrong question. It's rarely about does WP
need more admins. The much more appropriate question is,
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:31 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
It's a tiny bit highbrow, so I wouldn't expect really that much of it.
Agreed. The average vandal doesn't look at policy. They simply look at
a page and want to mess with it in some way. Oftentimes it's just
writing their name or swearing.
You have completely ignored the requirement that I am here *solely*
referring to items which live, online, behind subscription walls. If
the item is free, then it does not. So that removes the majority of
your counter-argument.
-Original Message-
From: Bod Notbod bodnot...@gmail.com
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:46 AM, FT2ft2.w...@gmail.com wrote:
Hope that clarifies? :)
Yes, it really truly does. I hadn't thought about in those terms.
Looking at it that way, I don't think I need to be an admin to do my stuff.
As you say, if you're constantly butting up against situations
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 2:27 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
snip
At some point, we had a project page where you could list your services
to do lookups in various sources. I don't really know if that got a
head of steam or died the death of obscurity. I thought I had posted
myself there, but
Yes! There I am!
# A Brief History of Byzantium Wjhonson (talk) 04:35, 7 February 2008
(UTC)
So I wasn't dreaming it.
And here is the request a lookup page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request#New_requests
This page however seems to be can you
That's very evil. You just made me read his article to confirm that it
doesn't say this at all!
By the way the under-age were female not male.
-Original Message-
From: Bod Notbod bodnot...@gmail.com
To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 7:02 pm
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 2:27 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
At some point, we had a project page where you could list your services
to do lookups in various sources. I don't really know if that got a
head of steam or died the death of obscurity. I thought I had posted
myself there, but I've
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2009/Candidates/en
Isn't this person Jussi-Ville Heiskanen a regular contributor to this
list ?
Jussi is the only person up for election who doesn't present a
photograph.
___
WikiEN-l mailing list
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:37 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2009/Candidates/en
Isn't this person Jussi-Ville Heiskanen a regular contributor to this
list ?
Jussi is the only person up for election who doesn't present a
photograph.
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 3:13 AM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
That's very evil. You just made me read his article to confirm that it
doesn't say this at all!
Oh gosh! Sorry, I should have pointed out that I was Trying To Prove A Point.
Although, I think that falls under [[WP:DICK]].
Not sure if
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:37 PM, wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
Isn't this person Jussi-Ville Heiskanen a regular contributor to this
list ?
I believe he is, yes, foundation-l too.
Jussi is the only person up for election who doesn't present a
photograph.
Keep in mind that that's not a
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Casey Brownli...@caseybrown.org wrote:
Keep in mind that that's not a requirement, he's well within his own
rights to not post a picture.
And given majorly's link, I'd say that's a canny move on his part!
--
gwern
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital
Gwern Branwen wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Casey Brownli...@caseybrown.org wrote:
Keep in mind that that's not a requirement, he's well within his own
rights to not post a picture.
And given majorly's link, I'd say that's a canny move on his part!
I'll take that as a compliment
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