Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

2016-03-03 Thread James Salsman
>... board meetings are confidential so board members under duress can > always claim they tried to do whatever they were told to but got voted down? Board votes are published. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Craig Franklin
This sounds like an excellent strategy if you're looking to have the board meetings turn into a rubber stamp for issues that have been discussed and decided elsewhere. Rather than solving the transparency problem through gimmicks like wheeling a video camera into the board room, we should look at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Trillium Corsage
The "minutes" released to the public are ridiculously scant. I tried to find out more last year about the board's removing the identification requirement from those the WMF grants access to the non-public information of contributors, but ran into dead-ends. The only thing I could decipher

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 2016-03-03 18:17, Nathan wrote: So instead - why not ask the board to hold quarterly public meetings? The WMF engages with the community through the model of public meetings all the time, and participants have been happy with the opportunity to hear staff work through issues and offer

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Meeting in Berlin (was: Executive transition planning)

2016-03-03 Thread Tanweer Morshed
Thanks Tim for addressing the burning issues. Let's focus on these issues along with regular topics in Berlin. We hope, we would come up with constructive, positive and forward-looking sustainable solutions at the conference. Regards, Tanweer On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:50 AM, Sam Klein

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

2016-03-03 Thread Gergo Tisza
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: > So I would like to hear from Susanna how easy it would be for her to > disobey direct instructions from her superiors related to her Wikimedia > volunteer work, because *they* are clearly taking a keen interest in the >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] What it means to be a *volunteer* organization

2016-03-03 Thread Tanweer Morshed
Hi David, I wholeheartedly support your words. The Wikimedia movement relies on the energy and enthusiasm of the Wikipedians or the volunteers from around the world. Technology is a tool in this case, but not the driving agent. The other tools which you mentioned are indeed important in the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Nathan
What do we want? We want to understand what board members think about major issues, we want some sense of the direction of the organization as driven by the board, we want to be able to see and verify that issues important to stakeholders throughout the movement are being considered and addressed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Andrew Lih wrote: > > I’d be eager to try this idea of observers/scribes from the community, > with the slight amendment that I don’t think it *needs* to be a different > person every time, though it should certainly be open to participation

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Andrew Lih
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Dariusz Jemielniak wrote: > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Risker wrote: > > Thanks. I think one idea would be to e.g. invite a community representative > to each meeting as an observer, responsible for reviewing the

[Wikimedia-l] recording board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread James Salsman
Wikimedia Australia has recorded their Board meetings, e.g. at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYnlRWxFpX0 If accurate minutes are too hard, this solution seems a lot easier. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
On Mar 3, 2016 8:19 AM, "Pete Forsyth" wrote: > > Enjoying this discussion, glad to see it happening. One question I haven't > seen addressed: > > Are there notes kept during executive sessions? Per the minutes policy listed on wiki yes they are kept; they are kept

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Gregory Varnum
Speaking from my non-Wikimedia experiences with nonprofit boards, I think Risker makes some good points. Even a very good notetaker is going to make mistakes. There are things said they accidentally didn’t hear, they misunderstood what someone was saying, or simply summarized a point using

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
*nod* very good points; it may be worth thinking about whether "minutes" and "communicating a clear reference of what's going on" should be distinct issues treated separately. If we've been conflating them in out discussion that might be leading some of us down wrong paths in potential solutions.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Pete Forsyth
Enjoying this discussion, glad to see it happening. One question I haven't seen addressed: Are there notes kept during executive sessions? From what I've seen, it seems that the answer might be no -- and that doesn't seem good. Having minutes is not the same thing as publishing minutes; but

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Risker
On 3 March 2016 at 10:36, Brion Vibber wrote: > On Mar 3, 2016 7:00 AM, "Risker" wrote: > Those who think it's an easy task that should be > > able to be done practically after the meeting is over tend to have no > real > > experience with writing and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
On Mar 3, 2016 7:00 AM, "Risker" wrote: Those who think it's an easy task that should be > able to be done practically after the meeting is over tend to have no real > experience with writing and managing minutes at the international > non-profit board level and may not fully

[Wikimedia-l] [Affiliate-selected Board seats] Osmar Valdebenito candidacy

2016-03-03 Thread Osmar Valdebenito
Hi everyone, I would like to inform you that I have published my candidacy to the Affiliate-Selected Board Seats. You can see my declaration and résumé in https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Osmar_Valdebenito You can ask me some questions here:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
On Mar 3, 2016 6:16 AM, "Risker" wrote: > > I often participate and present at meetings where I am not formally part of > the group or committee, and will be asked to review sections of the minutes > that relate to my presentation/participation/comments. I've discovered >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Armenia candidate for the board

2016-03-03 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
for the interest of people interested in this thread, Susanna replied on wiki: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Affiliate-selected_Board_seats/2016/Nominations/Susanna_Mkrtchyan#Questions_about_government_support_for_Wikimedia_Armenia I suggest continuing the discussion there, since it is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Risker wrote: > >> > "Responsible for reviewing the minutes". This is a lovely ideal. Can we > now be realistic? What do we really expect that "observer" to do? Will > they have input in to what the minutes finally say? Do they have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Risker
On 3 March 2016 at 09:22, Dariusz Jemielniak wrote: > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Risker wrote: > > > > > > > For the WMF board, we throw in the additional complexity of having a > large > > part of the board working in a non-primary language. This

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Nathan
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Chris Sherlock wrote: > > > Do you serve on any non-profit boards Chris? > > Chris > Chris Keating is on the board of the WMUK. In any case, it seems like there are many deliberative or legislative bodies that see themselves as

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Risker wrote: > > > For the WMF board, we throw in the additional complexity of having a large > part of the board working in a non-primary language. This should not be > discounted as an issue; it is actually one of the bigger factors that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Risker
On 3 March 2016 at 07:53, Brion Vibber wrote: > On Thursday, March 3, 2016, Chris Keating > wrote: > > > > > > > Why would minutes be written after the fact instead of during the > meeting > > > by the designated note taker(s)? > > > > > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

2016-03-03 Thread
On 3 March 2016 at 11:53, Gerard Meijssen wrote: ... > The ED has been sacrificed. It is obvious that the baying for blood has not > stopped. Last time I checked, Lila was still alive and supporting the WMF for the rest of the month. Fortunately the age of martyrs is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
On Thursday, March 3, 2016, Chris Keating wrote: > > > > Why would minutes be written after the fact instead of during the meeting > > by the designated note taker(s)? > > > Because the notes you take as you go along aren't in a fit state to serve > as minutes? I'd

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Sherlock
On 3 Mar 2016, at 11:36 PM, Chris Keating wrote: >> Sent from my iPhone >> On 3 Mar 2016, at 11:22 PM, Chris Keating >> wrote: >>> >>> Out of interest, Chris, have you ever served on a nonprofit board? >> >> Nope. > If you ever do, I

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Keating
> A few reflections on this subject: > (snip) I forgot one. Herewith: 4) Minutes while helpful aren't a substitute for proactive communication. Having just written about this subject at length* I won't go into it again. But when the WMF Board simply makes a controversial decision and putting

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

2016-03-03 Thread Derek V.Giroulle
Pine , One of the things iḿ missing is the wiki movement is an independant judiciary The Wiki community does not apply the following principles : - Presumtion of innocence : Innocent until proven guilty - Favor of the doubt for the accused - Clear procedure - No independant judges : often

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
On Thursday, March 3, 2016, Chris Sherlock wrote: > > > That does NOT take 3 weeks. I would also suggest if the Board are too busy > to provide input on the minutes of Board business then they need to either > reduce their commitments, or they need to step away from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Keating
> > > > Sent from my iPhone > On 3 Mar 2016, at 11:22 PM, Chris Keating > wrote: > > > > Out of interest, Chris, have you ever served on a nonprofit board? > > Nope. > > If you ever do, I think you will end up with a very different perspective on the commitment of time

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Sherlock
Sent from my iPhone On 3 Mar 2016, at 11:22 PM, Chris Keating wrote: > > Out of interest, Chris, have you ever served on a nonprofit board? Nope. Chris ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Keating
> > > That does NOT take 3 weeks. I would also suggest if the Board are too busy > to provide input on the minutes of Board business then they need to either > reduce their commitments, or they need to step away from the Board. They > have responsibilities that they committed to when they accepted

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Sherlock
On 3 Mar 2016, at 10:56 PM, Brion Vibber wrote: > > Why would minutes be written after the fact instead of during the meeting > by the designated note taker(s)? > > -- brion And why is the entire board writing up the minutes? In fact, the job of a scribe is to be able

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Andrew Gray
On 3 March 2016 at 11:51, Chris Keating wrote: > A few reflections on this subject: > > 1) I would however endorse the idea of publishing more papers / > presentations, and fuller notes of discussions in minutes. These give a > lot of context to what is going on, and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Keating
> > Why would minutes be written after the fact instead of during the meeting > by the designated note taker(s)? Because the notes you take as you go along aren't in a fit state to serve as minutes? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
On Thursday, March 3, 2016, Chris Keating wrote: > > 3) 3 weeks for publication of minutes sounds like a reasonable time frame > to me. I'm seeing a few "How can it take 3 WEEKS??!!?!?" reactions from > people. Probably because the Board spends all weekend meeting then

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

2016-03-03 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, To be brutally honest. The way several people on this list have behaved has been really distressing. The format they used has been a disguise for hostility. The problem is that these "pillars of society" bring the house down. At issue was trust. Trust between staff and the ED. There were

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Keating
A few reflections on this subject: 1) I would however endorse the idea of publishing more papers / presentations, and fuller notes of discussions in minutes. These give a lot of context to what is going on, and often it's lack of context that makes people concerned about what is actually going

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Using this list to tear people down

2016-03-03 Thread Anthony Cole
Keegan, regarding "...actively or passive-aggressively seeking to hurt others in the guise of all of our shared concerns." Given the nature of the recent crises, some of the things that needed saying were, simply, going to hurt people. You can't accuse someone of incompetence or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Chris Sherlock
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 6:22 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > > To discuss which practices to adopt, it's worth first looking at the > existing Board manual, which is a remarkably detailed document that > goes into many of these issues including the exact process for minutes >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Open and recorded WMF Board meetings

2016-03-03 Thread Brion Vibber
On Wednesday, March 2, 2016, Erik Moeller wrote: > > > To discuss which practices to adopt, it's worth first looking at the > existing Board manual, which is a remarkably detailed document that > goes into many of these issues including the exact process for minutes >