Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Love on Wikipedia with a gender gap focus!

2019-02-07 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz
Wouhou, super message, merci, merci merci 

Le 7 février 2019 16:37:23 GMT+01:00, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l 
 a écrit :
>Hi, 
>
>You probably all know that the Commons contest Wiki Loves Love (WLL)
>started since last friday. 
>
>What you might not know yet is that we are now having a multilingual
>wikipedian contest running at the same time from February 10 to March
>31st.
>
>The idea is to generate wikipedian content on the same very theme :
>festivals, ceremonies, testimonies, gestures and other symbols of love,
>and if possible use the photos generated by Wiki Loves Love to
>illustrate content on Wikipedia, with a special focus on reducing the
>gender gap, as this idea stems from les sans pagEs who has been asked
>by Psychoslave to collaborate with WLL. We thought adding encyclopedic
>content would create a win win for everybody and bring visibility to
>what we are all doing. 
>
>We have set up a multilingual and multi project page on meta with
>Rupika. 
>
>To participate you have two options: subscribe individually, or via
>another project. Several projects have already joined and we hope we
>can have others too!
>
>Main page on Meta :
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Love_2019#Timeline
>
>
>Registration page (individuals AND projects most welcome) :
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Love_2019/Project_Page
>
>
>We would gladly accept help to pimp up the page and add ideas on the
>working list as well….
>
>Kind regards, 
>
>Nattes à chat
>
>With Wiki Love !
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

2018-11-18 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz

Hello Peter, and the rest of the rest of the list

(Please let me know if you feel like replying with a few months delay is 
perceived as an unwanted behavior, at list on the list. I don't feel 
like this issue as been closed in the mid time, so it seems to me that 
it is still relevant to provide some feedback.)


I would rather say, "if not recorded". And I think we already have all 
the necessary projects to publish the raw audio/video material (Commons) 
from which can be transcribed original interviews (Wikinews), before 
making researches that cross their informations, analyze them and aim to 
produce some syntheses/conclusions (Wikiversity), that might possibly 
serve as reference for Wikipedia¹. But even in the case were the 
Wikipedia step is not happening, the firsts elements are also worthy 
contributions to the sum of all knowledge and we should, to my mind, 
encourage, conduct and praise them as such.


Cheers,
mathieu

Le 11/05/2018 à 06:34, Peter Southwood a écrit :

If not written, how would they be referenced and verified?
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing
sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider
sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not
written.

JP

On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen,  wrote:


Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for spammers
and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved
invitation.

If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should be made
at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing" a
reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask them
to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article accordingly
based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess what
sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or
whatever else have you types of information. If our references are flawed,
the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not
"correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, we do
not second-guess, dispute, or correct them.

Todd

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:


When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people wanting
to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started
Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone

without

any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed to

fail.

Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not to
remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those
requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing

knowledge. I

think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready to

do

that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia

when

we opened editing to anybody.

JP

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood <
peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:


One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite of
notability and verifiability requirements, Without the verifiability
requirement  it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are

things

that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer evidence,

and

where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is intangible,

the

authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means track
record and proof of identity.
This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see it as
possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a

reliable

source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying the
credibility we have.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Gnangarra
Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

  notability and verifiability are important,  every culture and

language

has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge.  These culture

manage

successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the western

styles

were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives.  The issue is how

do

we bring these sources into the western system, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikipedia's sourcing

2018-11-18 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz
I would suggest to conduct them on Wikiversity, where people can collaborate on 
research projects in the same way that make Wikipedia a place no one is going 
to take an encyclopedic article seriously. 

Le 29 août 2018 22:21:08 GMT+02:00, Robert Fernandez  a 
écrit :
>Interesting metrics and ideas here, but nobody's going to take your
>research particularly seriously if you choose to post it in an open
>sewer.  I'd suggest a Medium or Wordpress blog.
>
>On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 11:44 AM sashi  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I thought I would ask if any of the junior or senior researchers here
>on
>> this mailing list have conducted previous inquiries into Wikipedia's
>> sourcing.
>>
>> I am currently working on a project of determining what proportion of
>> Wikipedia is sourced to newspapers, the military, the Church, social
>> media, etc.
>>
>> The data I've compiled this month, along with a brief write-up, have
>> been posted to Wikipediocracy:
>>
>> http://wikipediocracy.com/2018/08/26/wikipedia-sources-methods/
>>
>> I imagine I'm reinventing the wheel... such studies have been done
>> before, by the WMF, with power tools (bots), right?
>>
>> Thanks for any corrections / suggestions,
>>
>>sashi
>>
>>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wmfall] Invitation to the October 2018 Wikimedia Monthly Activities Meeting: Thursday, October 25th, 18:00 UTC

2018-11-18 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz
Hi Sasha,

Thank you for taking care of taking care of this kind of reminder. While I 
don't necessarily read them at relevant time, I always greatly appreciate them 
when they avoid me missing such an opportunity while I'm available to join.☺️

Cheers, Mathieu 

Le 25 octobre 2018 19:33:10 GMT+02:00, Sasha Redkina  a 
écrit :
>REMINDER: This meeting starts in 30 minutes.Updated agenda in the
>original email.
>
>Sasha Redkina
>Front Office Coordinator
>*The Wikimedia Foundation*
>www.wikimediafoundation.org
>
>
>On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:47 PM Gregory Varnum 
>wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> The next Wikimedia Monthly Activities meeting will take place on
>Thursday,
>> October 25th, 2018 at 6:00 PM UTC (11 AM PDT). The IRC channel is
>> #wikimedia-office on https://webchat.freenode.net, and the meeting
>will
>> be broadcast as a live YouTube stream:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J86J8N1gExk. We’ll post the video
>> recording publicly after the meeting.
>>
>> During the October 2018 meeting, we will have an update on the
>movement,
>> Wikimedia 2030 status update, a presentation on values, principles
>and
>> methods, and more.
>>
>> Meeting agenda:
>> Welcome and introduction to agenda - 2 minutes
>> Movement update - 3 minutes
>> Values, Principles, and Methods, oh my! - 10 minutes
>> Wikimedia 2030 status update and opportunities to participate - 20
>minutes
>> Update from the Wikimedia Foundation Executive Director - 10 minutes
>> Questions and discussion - 10 minutes
>> Wikilove - 5 minutes
>>
>> Please review the meeting's Meta-Wiki page for further information
>about
>> the meeting and how to participate:
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_monthly_activities_meetings
>>
>> The November 2018 and December 2018 monthly activities meetings will
>be
>> combined and will take place on Thursday, December 6th, starting at
>19:00
>> UTC (11:00 Pacific Daylight Time). If you would like to sign up to
>> participate, please visit:
>>
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_monthly_activities_meetings/Sign_up
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory Varnum
>> Communications Strategist
>> Wikimedia Foundation 
>> gvar...@wikimedia.org
>> Pronouns: He/His/Him
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wmfall
>>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Summit 2019: Registration now open

2018-11-17 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz
Hello Paulo,

I just wonder, what is the thing you are concretely lacking to realize this 
projects?

Cheers

Le 9 novembre 2018 14:34:54 GMT+01:00, Paulo Santos Perneta 
 a écrit :
>(Just a quick followup on the important GLAM and FOSS events that were
>risking being cancelled here in Portugal due to complete lack of WMF
>support: While looking to all our options, I remember we had already
>planned a meeting with the Embassy of the Russian Federation in Lisbon
>about the Wikipedia Asia Month and the divulgation of the Russian
>culture
>here in Portugal, including Madeira Island, where we have a strong
>relation
>since the times of the czars until today, mainly covering arts and
>tourism.
>I've contacted the Embassy, which showed interest on this project, so
>I've
>just added those two events to the project we already add, to try to
>save
>them adjusting them to the scope of the Russian culture, and I expect
>we
>could meet in the next few days, hopefully still in time to save the
>events
>
>Paulo, Wikimedia Portugal)
>
>
>
>Paulo Santos Perneta  escreveu no dia quarta,
>7/11/2018 à(s) 17:57:
>
>> It is very sad that, despite Wikimedia Portugal currently having
>> everything up to date, being a very active and thriving chapter,
>being the
>> only remaining Portuguese-speaking Wikimedia organization in the
>whole
>> Wikimedia movement, also acting as a facilitator to all the Wikimedia
>> communities all over the Portuguese-speaking world on their relation
>with
>> the rest of the Wikimedia movement, and having fulfilled all its
>> obligations, including all those requested by AffCom, AffCom has
>decided to
>> unilaterally force an extension of the chapter suspension for more
>three
>> months, claiming they need more time to look into the case.
>> This not only made it impossible or almost impossible to carry on a
>lot of
>> activities that were already scheduled for those three months,
>including
>> our organization, co-organization and participation on two key
>national
>> scope GLAM and FOSS events, including a GLAM promotion event
>co-organized
>> with the National Library aimed the divulgation of GLAM partnerships
>and
>> projects to other similar institutions in the country, and the first
>Ubuntu
>> Conference in Portugal, with an obvious damage of the name of
>Wikimedia
>> along those GLAM and FOSS institutions and groups, but effectively
>blocked
>> us from taking part on the Wikimedia Summit, as the limit ends next
>17
>> December, much before the new limit of the extension AffCom has
>imposed.
>>
>> These are sad times for the Wikimedia movement here in Portugal.
>>
>> Anyway, I wish the best for those of you that will be attending the
>> Wikimedia Summit next year, and sincerely hope it will be a success.
>>
>> Paulo (DarwIn)
>> Wikimedia Portugal
>>
>> Cornelius Kibelka  escreveu no dia
>sexta,
>> 2/11/2018 à(s) 14:01:
>>
>>> Dear Wikimedians,
>>>
>>> We are delighted to announce that the registration for the Wikimedia
>>> Summit
>>> 2019 [1], which will be held in Berlin at Mercure Hotel Berlin
>Tempelhof
>>> Airport [2] from Friday, March 29, through Sunday, March 31, is now
>open!
>>>
>>> As we have announced previously, the main focus of this redesigned
>event
>>> will be the Movement Strategy Process. We invite affiliates, the
>Wikimedia
>>> Foundation, its committees and Movement Strategy Working Group
>members to
>>> check-in, have a look back and plan the next steps of the process
>>> together.
>>>
>>> We would like to provide you with important information regarding
>the
>>> eligibility for participation, participant number regulation,
>registration
>>> procedure, specifics in regards to the travel and hotel booking as
>well as
>>> the visa application process.
>>>
>>> == Eligibility criteria and participant number regulation ==
>>>
>>> The eligibility criteria for participating in the Wikimedia Summit
>2019
>>> are
>>> aligned to the Affiliates’ Agreements with the Wikimedia Foundation.
>>> Chapters, Thematic Organizations and User Groups must have shown
>signs of
>>> recent activity and be up-to-date on their reporting [3] by the
>>> eligibility
>>> deadline (December 1, 2018). Moreover, affiliations need to have
>been
>>> officially recognized by the Wikimedia Foundation before January 1,
>2018.
>>> Before registering for the Wikimedia Summit, please check the
>eligibility
>>> and status overview of your affiliate as well as the participant
>number
>>> regulation on meta [4].
>>>
>>> ==Registration information==
>>>
>>> To make the summit a success, it will be essential for the invited
>>> affiliates to deliberately choose their delegates. Affiliates are
>asked to
>>> send delegates that are well-informed in goings-on at the affiliate
>and
>>> able to confidently answer questions about it. We have shared
>specific
>>> registration advices and information regarding this [5].
>>>
>>> We are looking forward to also welcoming members of the Wikimedia
>>> Foundation Board of Trustees and 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia-l diversity and level of participation

2018-11-17 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz
Hi Pine,

I hope you are doing well. ☺️

It's nice to see your attention for more diversity, thank you for being a voice 
on this concern.

Here are the few suggestions that come to my mind regarding what could be done 
to make people feeling more at ease in contributing on that list :
- explicitly state in the list description that anyone can contribute in any 
language, and conversely provide way to access /contribute to translation of 
each message (this could go on Meta for example), we could also provide links 
to automated translations were such a tool exists for the implied pair of 
language
- actively promote the list in misc. village pumps, either through a global 
message that summerize recent active threads, with a distribution method 
similar to technews, or making sure that a permanent link with an attractive 
punchline in some main discussion place of each wiki.

I don't feel like those feedback have any chance to be given any resource by 
anyone reading the list, so publishing there don't seem of any use to my mind. 
But since reading your message made these ideas pop in my head, I prefer to at 
least share them with you. Feel free to do whatever you feel appropriate with 
that. 

Cheers

Le 7 novembre 2018 22:58:11 GMT+01:00, Pine W  a écrit :
>Hello Wikimedia-l,
>
>One subject that continues to be a source of concern for me is that I'd
>like to have a greater quantity and greater diversity of participants
>on
>Wikimedia-l. I have heard that some people feel that their English
>skills
>are not good enough to participate here, and I don't know what more we
>can
>do to help with them to feel welcome to participate regardless of their
>choice of language or their level of English skills.
>
>Also, I sometimes wonder whether some of our more pointed or stressful
>discussions on this list make good-faith newbies and quieter people
>feel
>too intimidated to post when I think that no one intends to make them
>feel
>unwelcome.
>
>I hope that this will not sound selfish, but I would like to encourage
>people to comment on what could be done to facilitate greater and more
>diverse participation in discussions here, and that includes feedback
>on
>how those of us (including me) who frequently post here could do better
>at
>helping people to feel that they have an opportunity to be heard.
>Although
>I would encourage public discussion of these subjects, I also welcome
>comments off-list. I realize that it is difficult to balance being
>candid
>with being hospitable, and I am hoping that we can be both.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Pine
>( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Subject lines for WMF fundraising emails

2018-11-17 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz

Hello Caitlin,

Thank you for your feedback. Is there a comprehensive list of data 
inputs which are processed, and maybe even more extensive information on 
your processes? That might come as an interesting source of inspiration 
for other stakeholders  in the movement, whether to provide more 
feedback or feed their own processes.


Cheers

Le 16/11/2018 à 18:16, Caitlin Cogdill a écrit :

Hi all,

Thank you for sharing your concerns. We hear them and we take them
seriously. *As of today, we have pulled this subject line from our testing
rotation.*

On the Fundraising team, we pride ourselves on making data-driven
decisions, and there are many types of data inputs we process outside of
dollar amount raised. For example, how many people choose to unsubscribe
from our list or submit an abuse complaint when we send an email? Does a
certain subject line get very high opens but a low rate of donations per
open--indicating that it is more clickbait than effective content? How much
and what kind of feedback is our Donor Services team getting?

We watched these inputs closely while sending this subject line to donors.
Our unsubscribe and abuse rates were low, the donation per open rate was
even higher than usual, and while our Donor Services team flagged some
negative responses from donors, they determined these comments were not in
a significant volume.

That said, there is a final input which is harder to measure on a per-test
basis: how do we, our colleagues, and volunteers feel about our messaging?
This team cares deeply about Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation, and
about the mission we all work to achieve. We want to represent it
faithfully, and do so in a way our readers and donors can engage with and
understand. This balance can be really hard to strike and it will always be
an ongoing challenge in our work.

We are grateful to be presented with this challenge and with the joy of
telling millions of people about this movement. Thank you for caring so
deeply, for all your contributions, and for keeping this feedback loop
alive.

Sincerely,
Caitlin

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 1:47 PM Pine W  wrote:


  Hi Seddon,

While the fundraising appeal may be successful, the problem that I have
with this subject line is that it can mislead readers into thinking that
someone with the ability to do so is seriously considering, or making an
effort to, delete Wikipedia in entirety. I think that a subject line of
"Block Wikipedia?" might be okay, and I am supportive of encouraging people
not to take Wikipedia for granted. But regarding "Delete Wikipedia?", as
far as I know that generally misrepresents the current situation. I believe
that using "Delete Wikipedia?" as a subject line is inconsistent with
Wikipedia's goals of providing neutral, verifiable, and reliable
information.

I am starting to think that if WMF wants to use the Wikipedia brand name
for WMF fundraising then WMF should first publicly discuss its proposed
uses of the Wikipedia brand name with Wikipedians.

On a related issue, I don't know if it's happening this year, but in the
past another concern that I've had is the conflation of donating to
Wikipedia with donating to WMF. Wikipedia and WMF are related but there is
not a 1:1 relationship, and I hope that WMF makes that clear in its
fundraising. The use of "Delete Wikipedia?" reminds me of these concerns.

I would prefer to avoid diverting the community's limited time into
reviewing WMF's choices, but unfortunately the issues are too significant
to ignore. I don't know how many community members want to volunteer their
time to review fundraising appeals before they go into production, but I
think that it would be good for WMF to ask.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Subject lines for WMF fundraising emails

2018-11-17 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz

Hello Joseph,

Thank you for clarifying the context. For being able to even better 
understand the topic, could we have a copy of the full email, or a link 
to a page containing its text?


Here is a direct permanent link to the discussion Pine was referring to: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales=869210030#Latest_WMF_email 
(conversation might have moved forward at the time you read this)


Interestingly a thread was also launched this week on Wikimedia France 
on the same topic of communication within fund-raising campaign (the one 
for Wikimedia France)[1]. The main difference with this thread is that 
it was launched by Amélie Cabon, the chapter fundraising officer, asking 
feedback on the communication material she produced so far. Similar 
discomforts were raised on punchline wordings that, citing how a 
misleading statement was evoking fakenews. I don't know how the email 
"Delete Wikipedia?" redaction was realized, with or without community 
feedback, if feedback was requested and given, it would be interesting 
to give references.


Personnaly, I think that "Deleting Wikipedia?" is fine as a punchline, 
if it does the job of catching and keeping attention toward a detailed 
explanation of what is the campaign about and make clear and and 
truthful statements of the expected outcomes depending on the campaign 
results (and possibly to make situation even clearer, things that are 
not depending on campaign results). So to my mind, as long as the 
punchline let open an honest development without contradiction, what 
matter is the full text.


[1] https://lists.wikimedia.fr/arc/comm/2018-11/msg3.html


Cheers,
Mathieu

Le 14/11/2018 à 02:12, Joseph Seddon a écrit :

Hey Pine,

I appreciate and understand your feedback about this subject line.

For some time we have been trying to find an alternative subject line to
-/This is a little awkward/-. That line works and works very well but we
have found it very difficult to effectively translate and adapt into other
languages, and despite our best efforts have struggled to find an
alternative.

We first tested -/Deleting Wikipedia?/- as a subject line a couple of weeks
ago and it was the only winning variant in hundreds of tests. We retested
in case it was a statistical fluke and continued to see it perform well.
The effectiveness of this subject line for the most part does not come from
its apparent clickbaiting. The change in the number of people opening the
emails was relatively small and unsubscribes remained extremely low. The
big driver in terms of its success was from a significant increase in those
people who opened AND read our email appeal. We posed a question and donors
were motivated to donate when presented with the idea of imagining a world
without Wikipedia.

Our motivation behind this sort of subject line is the fact that in three
countries today it is already as if Wikipedia does not exist. The risk that
this could happen in more countries is greater now that it ever has been.
Censorship, impediments to free speech and over regulation of copyright are
threats that Wikipedia, Wikimedia and its communities face every single day
and it is with that context that we want to lead.

Any email that included this subject line came with at least some context
to flesh out the idea, i.e., “If Wikipedia were deleted, it would be a
great loss to the world,”, but going forward it is our full intention to
make even clearer that we intend for the donor to imagine a world without
Wikipedia and the threats it faces every day, not threaten that it is going
away.

Our plan is to continue to testing on this theme, exploring censorship and
copyright restrictions as well as our increasing role as the backbone of
knowledge on the internet, and help donors see that knowledge can and is
threatened all the time. We are definitely and eagerly open to any
feedback, suggestions and ideas you might have.

Best,
Seddon

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:04 PM Pine W  wrote:


There is a report from a user on Jimbo's talk page on ENWP regarding
receiving fundraising a fundraising email with the subject line "[NAME] -
Deleting Wikipedia?"

In previous years I've disagreed with some of WMF's fundraising choices,
and it would be unfortunate if in the era of "fake news" becoming
mainstream WMF chooses to continue to be a part of the problem. If this is
happening then I request that WMF put a stop to it. Regardless of how
effective it is to send misleading fundraising appeals and that WMF has
received minimal repercussions for doing so over the years, it's wrong and
it should stop.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Jamal Khashoggi's call to action

2018-10-20 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz

Hi Erik,

Le 18/10/2018 à 04:51, Erik Moeller a écrit :

I'm wondering what folks in the Wikimedia community and movement make
of this call to action. Is there more that Wikimedia can do, for
example, to support translation of news articles into many languages?

There is nothing in Jamal's own op-ed that indicates that it would be
legally permissible to translate it. This is, unfortunately, the norm
for news; there are few outlets that use a Creative Commons license,
and those that do, typically tend to choose the most restrictive
variants.


What we already have is Wikinews, which use CC-BY-2.5 following a 
community pool of 2005 : 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinews/Licensure_Poll


It seems that the content translation extension is not installed on 
Wikinews:


 * https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Special:Version
 * https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_translation

So installing it might be a way to lower the barrier on this point.

Of course this is not the only issue why Wikinews doesn't attract that 
many people, there are already plethora of analyzes of the subject out 
there I guess, here is one: 
https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Wikinews-so-under-used


Personally, which sadly resonate with the terrible story of Jamal 
Khashoggi, I would add additional uncertainty for mere citizen compared 
to a professional journalist. That said I'm not very knowledgeable about 
this, are secret of sources usable by any citizen which would publish 
something on Wikinews? Documenting risks and how to mitigate them when 
contributing to Wikinews might be an other way to improve what we 
already provide.


With all my sympathy to Jamal's relatives and all journalists around the 
world risking their lives in the name of truth,

Mathieu

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[Wikimedia-l] The Wiki Loves Love (WLL) mailing list is ready!

2018-10-18 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz

Hello everyone,

We are please to announce that the Wiki Loves Love project now has its 
own mailling list. You can get more information and subscribe at 
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wll


Special thanks to Moritz Mühlenhoff for making that possible.

About Wiki Love Love (WLL):

Wiki Loves Love is an international photography campaign which aims to 
document love testimonials across various societies, communities and 
beyond through the whole world. From monuments to ceremonies, from 
miscellaneous objects used as symbol of love to tender gestures, let's 
show to the world how love is expressed everywhere and in various ways.


You can learn more about the contest at:

 * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Love (please help
   translate the page to languages you know)
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Love_2019
 * https://www.facebook.com/WikiLovesLove/
 * https://www.twitter.com/wikiloveslove
 * https://t.me/joinchat/H1K8vk404Yvj-91GHiR-6A (telegram channel)

Cheers,
Mathieu

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource Handbook

2018-10-07 Thread Mathieu Lovato Stumpf Guntz
Thank you very much Ananth I'll look at it as soon as I can. 

Le 6 octobre 2018 14:50:23 GMT+02:00, Ananth Subray  a 
écrit :
>Dear Mathieu,
>
>As per your suggestion, I have created the meta version
><https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikisource_Handbook>[1] of the
>Wikisource
>Handbook. I request you all to have a look and it and give your
>valuable
>suggestions.
>
>[1].https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikisource_Handbook
>
>Thanks and Regards,
>
>*ANANTH SUBRAY P V*
>
>Programme Associate
>
>Access to Knowledge program
>
>The Centre for Internet & Society
>
>+91-9739811664
>
>Thank you Ananth and Tanveer for your answers.
>
>CC0 would of course also works to thereafter publishing it on Meta.
>Please
>feel free to ping me in the discussion page when the meta version is
>published.
>
>Thanks again to all participants
>
>Le 14/09/2018 à 15:08, Ananth Subray a écrit :
>
>Dear Mathieu,
>
>I don't have any issue in re-licensing the book. I will be starting the
>meta version soon. Since the final version was directly done on Adobe
>InDesign
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_InDesign_CC_2015_%28Macintosh%29>.
>The
>older version of it is available
><https://docs.google.com/document/d/11CbKSR4NiNt_qO3N0bBqws5keMwdKeGpLUiDAbFsCR8/edit?usp=sharing>.
>
>
>Thanks and Regards,
>
>
>*ANANTH SUBRAY P V*
>
>Programme Associate
>
>Access to Knowledge program
>
>The Centre for Internet & Society
>
>+91-9739811664
>
>
>On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 6:29 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
>bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mathieu,
>>
>> I have no problem re-licensing the book at all. I assume, Ananth will
>> confirm soon from his part. He also assured me that he will start
>working
>> on the meta version soon.
>>
>> I was responsible for creating the draft of the handbook and I have
>the
>> draft text version with me. I guess, the finalized text version is
>with
>> Ananth as he did the rest of the work of designing and finalizing the
>> handbook. I guess, he will share the text version soon, so that it
>can be
>> translated into other languages, including Indic languages.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bodhisattwa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 18:00, mathieu lovato stumpf guntz <
>> psychosl...@culture-libre.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Peter, thank you for the incitive to go on.
>>>
>>> Actually, I didn't watched the license before, but it's
>CC-by-sa-4.0, so
>>> as it is, I couldn't copy/paste it into a Wikimedia wiki, as most of
>>> them are CC-by-3.0, and the other licenses used on some wiki are
>even
>>> less possibly compatible. I have little doubt Ananth and Bodhisattwa
>>> will grant us persmission to also publish the document under the
>>> CC-by-sa-3.0, but we still need their consent.
>>>
>>> More importantly, my implicit questioning was "were could I find the
>>> original working document of from which this PDF was generated
>from?".
>>> Sure we can always make copy/paste from the PDF, but having the
>working
>>> document is often far more useful as a base to wikify.
>>>
>>> Thank you again to Ananth and Bodhisattwa for the document, I hope
>we
>>> will be able to make a wiki version together, and thank you Peter
>for
>>> pointing the license issue and the lake of explicit demand for the
>>> working document.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 14/09/2018 à 13:53, Peter Southwood a écrit :
>>> > It is CC-by-sa. Of course you can.
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Peter
>>> >
>>> > -Original Message-
>>> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org]
>On
>>> Behalf Of mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
>>> > Sent: 14 September 2018 10:25
>>> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Ananth Subray; wikimediaindia-l@lists.
>>> wikimedia.org
>>> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource Handbook
>>> >
>>> > Great, thank you.
>>> >
>>> > Could we also launch a Wiki version that would allow
>localizations, for
>>> > example on Meta or Wikibooks?
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Le 11/09/2018 à 20:25, Ananth Subray a écrit :
>>> >> Dear All,
>>> >>
>>> >> We all know that Wikisource is one of the trending Wikimedia
>projects.
>>> We
>>> &

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Recognition of the Vietnam Wikimedians User Group

2018-09-16 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Great, congratulations to the Vietnam Wikimedians User Group!


Le 16/09/2018 à 04:43, Kirill Lokshin a écrit :

Hi everyone!

I'm very happy to announce that the Affiliations Committee has recognized
[1] the Vietnam Wikimedians User Group [2] as a Wikimedia User Group. The
group aims to encourage and promote participation and contribution to the
Wikimedia projects by Vietnamese-speaking users.

Please join me in congratulating the members of this new user group!

Regards,
Kirill Lokshin
Chair, Affiliations Committee

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Recognition_Wikimedians_of_Vietnam_Wikimedians_User_Group
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Wikimedians_User_Group
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource Handbook

2018-09-14 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Thank you Ananth and Tanveer for your answers.

CC0 would of course also works to thereafter publishing it on Meta. 
Please feel free to ping me in the discussion page when the meta version 
is published.


Thanks again to all participants


Le 14/09/2018 à 15:08, Ananth Subray a écrit :

Dear Mathieu,

I don't have any issue in re-licensing the book. I will be starting 
the meta version soon. Since the final version was directly done on 
Adobe InDesign 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_InDesign_CC_2015_%28Macintosh%29>. 
The older version of it is available 
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/11CbKSR4NiNt_qO3N0bBqws5keMwdKeGpLUiDAbFsCR8/edit?usp=sharing>. 



Thanks and Regards,*
*


*ANANTH SUBRAY P V*

Programme Associate

Access to Knowledge program

The Centre for Internet & Society

+91-9739811664



On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 6:29 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal 
mailto:bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Mathieu,

I have no problem re-licensing the book at all. I assume, Ananth
will confirm soon from his part. He also assured me that he will
start working on the meta version soon.

I was responsible for creating the draft of the handbook and I
have the draft text version with me. I guess, the finalized text
version is with Ananth as he did the rest of the work of designing
and finalizing the handbook. I guess, he will share the text
version soon, so that it can be translated into other languages,
including Indic languages.

Regards,
Bodhisattwa




On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 18:00, mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
mailto:psychosl...@culture-libre.org>> wrote:

Hey Peter, thank you for the incitive to go on.

Actually, I didn't watched the license before, but it's
CC-by-sa-4.0, so
as it is, I couldn't copy/paste it into a Wikimedia wiki, as
most of
them are CC-by-3.0, and the other licenses used on some wiki
are even
less possibly compatible. I have little doubt Ananth and
Bodhisattwa
will grant us persmission to also publish the document under the
CC-by-sa-3.0, but we still need their consent.

More importantly, my implicit questioning was "were could I
find the
original working document of from which this PDF was generated
from?".
Sure we can always make copy/paste from the PDF, but having
the working
document is often far more useful as a base to wikify.

Thank you again to Ananth and Bodhisattwa for the document, I
hope we
will be able to make a wiki version together, and thank you
Peter for
pointing the license issue and the lake of explicit demand for
the
working document.

Cheers


Le 14/09/2018 à 13:53, Peter Southwood a écrit :
> It is CC-by-sa. Of course you can.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
<mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org>] On Behalf Of
mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
> Sent: 14 September 2018 10:25
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Ananth Subray;
wikimediaindi...@lists.wikimedia.org
<mailto:wikimediaindi...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource Handbook
>
> Great, thank you.
>
> Could we also launch a Wiki version that would allow
localizations, for
> example on Meta or Wikibooks?
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Le 11/09/2018 à 20:25, Ananth Subray a écrit :
>> Dear All,
>>
>> We all know that Wikisource is one of the trending
Wikimedia projects. We
>> are getting many new editors and new books to Indic
language Wikisource's.
>> At the same time, we even noticed that there are many
problems faced by the
>> new editors and a few of the existing editors. To help all
of the editors
>> we have created a Handbook titled as *Wikisource Handbook
for Indic
>> communities
>>

<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikisource_Handbook_for_Indian_Communities.pdf>.
>> *Which is now available[1] to everyone to make the best use
of it. I
>> request everyone to share this with all those who are in
need of support in
>> editing Wikisource.
>>
>>
>> Authors of the book: Bodhisattwa Mandal and Ananth Subray P V.
>>
>>
>> [1].
>>

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikiso

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource Handbook

2018-09-14 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Hey Peter, thank you for the incitive to go on.

Actually, I didn't watched the license before, but it's CC-by-sa-4.0, so 
as it is, I couldn't copy/paste it into a Wikimedia wiki, as most of 
them are CC-by-3.0, and the other licenses used on some wiki are even 
less possibly compatible. I have little doubt Ananth and Bodhisattwa 
will grant us persmission to also publish the document under the 
CC-by-sa-3.0, but we still need their consent.


More importantly, my implicit questioning was "were could I find the 
original working document of from which this PDF was generated from?".  
Sure we can always make copy/paste from the PDF, but having the working 
document is often far more useful as a base to wikify.


Thank you again to Ananth and Bodhisattwa for the document, I hope we 
will be able to make a wiki version together, and thank you Peter for 
pointing the license issue and the lake of explicit demand for the 
working document.


Cheers


Le 14/09/2018 à 13:53, Peter Southwood a écrit :

It is CC-by-sa. Of course you can.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
Sent: 14 September 2018 10:25
To: Wikimedia Mailing List; Ananth Subray; wikimediaindi...@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource Handbook

Great, thank you.

Could we also launch a Wiki version that would allow localizations, for
example on Meta or Wikibooks?

Cheers


Le 11/09/2018 à 20:25, Ananth Subray a écrit :

Dear All,

We all know that Wikisource is one of the trending Wikimedia projects. We
are getting many new editors and new books to Indic language Wikisource's.
At the same time, we even noticed that there are many problems faced by the
new editors and a few of the existing editors.  To help all of the editors
we have created a Handbook titled as *Wikisource Handbook for Indic
communities
<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikisource_Handbook_for_Indian_Communities.pdf>.
*Which is now available[1] to everyone to make the best use of it. I
request everyone to share this with all those who are in need of support in
editing Wikisource.


Authors of the book: Bodhisattwa Mandal and Ananth Subray P V.


[1].
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikisource_Handbook_for_Indian_Communities.pdf

Thanks and Regards,


*ANANTH SUBRAY P V*

Programme Associate

Access to Knowledge program

The Centre for Internet & Society

+91-9739811664
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikisource Handbook

2018-09-14 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Great, thank you.

Could we also launch a Wiki version that would allow localizations, for 
example on Meta or Wikibooks?


Cheers


Le 11/09/2018 à 20:25, Ananth Subray a écrit :

Dear All,

We all know that Wikisource is one of the trending Wikimedia projects. We
are getting many new editors and new books to Indic language Wikisource's.
At the same time, we even noticed that there are many problems faced by the
new editors and a few of the existing editors.  To help all of the editors
we have created a Handbook titled as *Wikisource Handbook for Indic
communities
.
*Which is now available[1] to everyone to make the best use of it. I
request everyone to share this with all those who are in need of support in
editing Wikisource.


Authors of the book: Bodhisattwa Mandal and Ananth Subray P V.


[1].
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikisource_Handbook_for_Indian_Communities.pdf

Thanks and Regards,


*ANANTH SUBRAY P V*

Programme Associate

Access to Knowledge program

The Centre for Internet & Society

+91-9739811664
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[Wikimedia-l] Wiki Loves Love 2019 edition theme proposals are open, share your ideas!

2018-08-12 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Hello everybody,

Please join the discussion on Meta regarding the precise theme of the 
2019 Wiki Loves Love edition: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki_Loves_Love#2019_edition_theme_proposals_are_open,_share_your_ideas! 



Spread the word wherever you feel apropriate. ❤️

With a lot of wikilove,
mathieu

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikimedia Social: non-profit social networking service ?

2018-08-08 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Hello,

Following a discussion on a Wikisource Telegram group, I searched a bit 
about mastodon and Wikimedia, and I found back this current thread[1] as 
well as the following


- https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T198363
  - pointing to 
https://mastodon.technology/@danielhglus/100278498498332671
    - evoking a conversation on WP:VPIL, that is actually (most likely) 
refering to 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)/Archive_25#Mastodon_instance?

- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Social_media
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Social_networking

I was initially looking for something able to do at least the same as 
Telegram groups, with at least the same cross-devices ease of use. With 
what I played so far on Mastodon, I don't think it would fulfill the 
same feature set as Telegram, but I was already suggested a few other 
solution to further this inquiry:


- Signal https://signal.org/ 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software) 

- Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_(software) 

- Wire https://wire.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_(software) 


- Tox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox_%28protocol%29
- Matrix http://matrix.org/ 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(communication_protocol) 



My experience with the two former don't make feel like they could be 
used for the same purpose as Telegram. I still have to check the three 
later, but please be bold with any feedback and complementary ideas you 
might have on this topic.


Although Mastodon doesn't seem to be what I was looking for at start, I 
do think it would be great to launch a Wikimedia instance and completely 
in phase with the aim of becoming an essential infrastructure of the 
ecosystem of free knowledge. So let me know if I can help in any way on 
this regard. :)


Cheers.


[1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-April/089977.html


Le 11/04/2018 à 11:17, Quim Gil a écrit :

(These are personal opinions based on my own personal interest in free and
volunteer-driven social networks, not an opinion as a WMF member.)

On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:46 AM, Leinonen Teemu 
wrote:


Hi,

I have been looking for social networking service that would be fair: not
abusing personal data, funded by community, respecting privacy, accepting
anonymity, free/libre/ open source etc. Haven’t found many. The Diaspora*
Project[1] is not moving forward very fast and the Mastodon[2] is more a
microblogging service rather than a social network service.


Can it be that the difference between "microblogging service" and "social
network" might be too subtle and subjective to be noticed by the majority
of their users? And for the problem you are presenting here?


Would it make sense for Wikimedia movement to build its own social network

service?


Depends on what you mean by "build". If you mean create the software for a
new social network service, I don't think it makes sense. Providing support
and development of multilingual wiki projects
 to collect and develop
educational content to empower and engage people around the world is
already a daunting task in terms of software development, and there is so
much to do.

If you mean to run the software developed by someone else, sure, why not
experimenting. Thanks to free software licenses anyone can try, and thanks
to Wikimedia trademarks licenses I am sure a decent solution could be found
by whoever wants to run this experiment.


In the "2017 Movement strategy” we state: “By 2030, Wikimedia will become

the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free knowledge”. If we
consider discussions and information shared on social network services to
be “knowledge”, I think we should have a role in here too.


With some caveats and observations, I agree on the principle, just not on
the implication that this means we need to create a free social network for
us from scratch, starting with a first line of code. If we consider social
networks useful, and free social networks the right and consistent thing to
use in an ecosystem of free knowledge, then the first step can be as simple
as opening a Mastodon instance. Dozens (hundreds) of volunteers (including
amateur sysadmins) are doing just that without much discussion, just
scratching their own itch, or for fun, or to learn, or to experiment...


We have 33 million registered users and fulfil all the requirements of

being a “fair service”. A minimum list of features to make Wikimedia Social
would be:

(1) Status updates
(2) Comments
(3) Likes


This is provided by Mastodon, GNUSocial, etc today. They look like minimum
features for a social network indeed.



(4)Groups


Mmm can you specify your use cases here? There is a chance, that the 

[Wikimedia-l] Favoring FLOSS solutions and services [WAS: Re: Update #4: Upcoming call for participation in Working Groups]

2018-07-31 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Hi Katherine and everyone,

Reading this email, my attention was caught by the fact that the video 
link is pointing to YouTube. I don't question the idea of publishing 
videos of the foundation on YouTube, the rational of having an immediate 
larger audience is obvious. But I think that wherever we can, we should 
promote FLOSS solutions and services first. All the more when we aim at 
becoming the essential infrastructure of the ecosystem of free 
knowledge, with anyone who shares our vision able to join us.


When it comes to host video, we should encourage Commons, at least when 
we point to them in official communications of the foundation. And 
include a link to the same video on Commons on every Youtube publication 
by the foundation would also be a way to better promote our own 
platform, maybe. Regarding video we might also have a look at 
peertube[1] as a potential element to add in the Wikimedia supported 
service stack. But that's an other point, for now pointing preferably to 
Commons would, to my mind, already be a best practice.


On the same topic, there are documents of the foundation which are 
written though Google Docs. That might be perceived as less problematic 
from a participation point of view as long as they are strictly internal 
documents. But of course once people are accustomed to a tool they will 
spontaneously use it for other documents, including documents on which 
community is expected to participate. When we invite the community to 
participate to edit a document using this kind of closed platform, I'm 
affraid that the tacit message will be "anyone can join us as long as 
they accept the terms of service of the closed platforms we use". /D//e 
facto,/ we promote them simply by using them and requiring others to 
also use them to participate, thus contributing to the reinforcement of 
closed platforms through network effects. I don't say that all feature 
of all closed platforms out there have complete FLOSS equivalents, but 
most of the time I don't see much interest to use closed platforms given 
what FLOSS services can provide. One might look at all services that 
Framasoft provide out of the box, based only on free software[2], each 
of them could have a wikimedia instance if needed.


Cheers

[1] https://joinpeertube.org/
[2] https://degooglisons-internet.org/fr/list/

Le 07/06/2018 à 03:36, Katherine Maher a écrit :

Dear all,

It’s been a while since I sent out the last movement strategy update. A lot
has happened in the meantime, and I wanted to give you a heads-up regarding
an upcoming call for participation!

But first things first:

1. The report from the Wikimedia Conference Movement Strategy Track

has been published[1]. It captures all the conversations, insights and
outputs from three days of intense strategy work, so it’s a (quite) long
but very interesting read. It is meant to document the state of the process
and to allow for a deep dive into it. It should be especially valuable for
those of you who did not have a chance to participate in the conference or
attended another conference track.

2. Based on WMCON outputs (and various conversations we’ve been having in
our movement for years), the core strategy team has mapped eight key
thematic areas

[2] -- and some initial guiding questions -- that should to be answered to
enable us to advance towards our strategic direction. These areas include:

- Roles & Responsibilities
- Resource Allocation & Revenue Streams
- Diversity
- Partnerships
- Capacity Building
- Community Health
- Technology
- Advocacy

3. The core team will be supporting the creation of Working Groups to take
on these critical conversations. These working groups will be asked to
assess the current situation of the thematic area, and obstacles and
opportunities. They’ll have access to all the relevant information already
collected, and the chance to do further research if needed. They’ll be
asked to identify the changes needed in movement structures and develop
concrete recommendations for the movement on how to ratify and implement
them.[3] An open call for working group members will go out to the movement
this week -- please stay tuned for an update from Nicole!

I also had the chance to present more about these plans at last week’s
Metrics Meeting. Please do take a look, either look it all up on the
Meta[3] or watch the video![4]

Cheers,
Katherine


[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conference_2018/Documentation/Movement_Strategy_track

[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups#What_are_the_key_thematic_areas%3F

[3]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups
[4] 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata] Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata

2018-07-10 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz
Although we discussed about that more extensively off-list, I just 
wanted to make publicly clear that:


- I don't make "forum-shopping", I batch reply to some messages where my 
name was explicitely appearing in the message body. I have close to 2000 
untreated messages in the Wikimedia directory of my mailbox alone.
- On the phabricator ticket I refered to an email that Karima posted on 
mailling list, but didn't quoted the message itself as I prefered to not 
be out of terms of use of the list. I thought that the mailling list was 
reserved to WMfr members, Denny rightfully pointed that it was hard to 
judge on a message he didn't have access to.
- I thought that was ambarassing not to be able to give access to this 
information, and in order not to fall in the same ambarrassing situation 
again I thought it would be great to make future posts public by default
- I didn't asked for "for total and absolute transparency and openness" 
however. To make it perfectly clear and explicit I don't support any 
form of absolutism. And in the end it happened that the mailling list 
archives in question was already accessible to anyone subscribing freely 
online, unlike what we had previously as a policy for some lists in WMfr 
which led me to wrong assumptions. It's a fine level of transparency 
from my expectations which might be high, but not absolute.
- Karima wen't out of the mailling list demanding the message I was 
referring to to be deleted, and saying that in fact she was not a 
Wikidata contributor. Anyone is free to look at that more closely and 
draws its own conclusions.
- I don't expect any change in Wikidata license, and anyone interested 
in the legal issue should proferably look at the phabricator ticket as 
it was previously suggested


I hope that giving a bit of context might help dispel misinterpretations.

Cheers.

Le 06/07/2018 à 23:37, Alphos OGame a écrit :

Hello,

Mathieu, not only are you forum-shopping here as Maarten pointed out, you
are also consecutively trying one "what if" after the other instead of
providing an actual formal case against the CC0 license currently in effect
on Wikidata.
So far each of your individual arguments has been debunked :
- incompatibly licensed database imports (Nemo_bis [1] and Denny [2][3]
replied to that concern on May 14th on Phabricator ; same applies to
CC-BY-SA on Wikipedia : we get rid of incompatible stuff all the time)
- provenance and traceability of data (Maarten Dammers replied to that
concern on this email thread on July 4th ; licenses have nothing to do with
either of those things : references are there for that, and edit history
can help too)
- conflation of licensing of an entire text and facts stated within it -
which is pretty much one of the main purposes of Wikidata, or am I mistaken
? - (Martijn Hoekstra replied to that concern on this email thread on July
4th ; facts aren't long blobs of complicated text that are works of the
mind, although it could be a tad more complex when it comes to large
compilations of facts - but the definition of "large" is nowhere properly
determined)
On May 25th, you mentionned on Phabricator "discussing face to face with a
professional lawyer specialized on free licenses" [4]. She was supposed to
forward you "more information later". Has she done that ? Barring anything
new from her or any other lawyer, I see no reason whatsoever to keep going
on with that discussion which, so far, seems to only be able to determine
the morals and ethos of sticking to CC0, and not the actual legality of it.

However, I'd like to point out as an aside that in the process of your - so
far it seems purely intellectual - exercice, you have pushed Karima out of
a mailing list, which culminated in you asking from Wikimedia France that
all messages from all their mailing lists be immediately and irrevocably
made public "for total and absolute transparency and openness" as I recall
it, for the measly sake of this very argument. Your request was thankfully
denied on the basis of, if anything, privacy protection of their members.
Her message on May 4th on Phabricator [5] doesn't leave much to the
imagination that her leaving the Wikimedia France Wikidata mailing list and
your actions are directly related.

I suggest you either provide a strong legal argument (which is more than
"this thing and that stuff could happen", I mean something with actual
legal babble, including law and case law, with help from an actual lawyer)
or drop the splintered stick you hit that long-since dead horse with. And
whichever you choose, if you could stop bullying people to get your point
across, that'd be swell.

Thank you.

Roger / Alphos

[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728#4204583
[2] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728#4204771
[3] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728#4204779
[4] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728#4231434
[5] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728#4182444



2018-07-05 20:30 GMT+02:00 Yann Forget :



Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata] Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata

2018-07-07 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Hi Andra,


Le 04/07/2018 à 13:00, Andra Waagmeester a écrit :



No, Wikidata is not going to change the CC0. You seem to be the
only person wanting that and trying to discredit Wikidata will not
help you in your crusade. I suggest the people who are still
interested in this to go to
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728
 and make useful
comments over there.

It seems all this assertions are following some erroneous assumptions. 
This ticket is not about changing Wikidata license. It aims at making 
sure what can and what can not be legally imported into a database using 
CC0, and in which juridiction it can be legally used safely or not in 
downstream projects.


It would certainly be interesting that Wikimedia infrastructure would 
allow to host projects using Wikibase with other topic/license scopes 
that are queriables within other Wikimedia projects. Surelly it would 
make a good match with the "become the essential infrastructure of the 
ecosystem of free knowledge" goal. But that's an other story, and I 
didn't found time to work on that topic so far.


It would also be great if we could avoid to imput the title of "crusader 
dedicated to discredit Wikidata" to someone that not later than this 
afternoon helped a new contributor to make its first edit on this project.


Cheers.



Maarten


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[Wikimedia-l] On traceability and reliability of data we publish [was Re: [Wikidata] Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata]

2018-07-07 Thread mathieu lovato stumpf guntz

Hi Andra,

I agree this is misconception that a copyright license make any direct 
change to data reliability. But attribution requirement does somewhat 
indirectly have an impact on it, as it legally enforce traceability. 
That is I strongly disagree with the following assertion: "a license 
that requires BY sucks so hard for data [because] attribution 
requirements grow very quickly". To my mind it is equivalent to say that 
we will throw away traceability because it is subjectively judged too 
large a burden, without providing any start of evidence that it indeed 
can't be managed, at least with Wikimedia current ressources.


Now, I don't say traceability is the sole factor one should take into 
account in data reliability, but certainly it is one of them. Maybe we 
should first come with clear criteria to put in a equation that enable 
to calculate reliability of information. Since it's in the core goals of 
the Wikimedia strategy, it would certainly worth the effort to establish 
clear metrics about reliability of information the movement is spreading.


Cheers


Le 04/07/2018 à 13:00, Andra Waagmeester a écrit :
I agree with Maarten and to add to that. It is a huge misconception 
that CC0  makes data unreliable. It is only a legal statement about 
copyright, nothing more, nothing less. Statements without proper 
references and qualifiers make data unreliable, but Wikidata has a 
decent mechanism to capture that needed provenance.


On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Maarten Dammers > wrote:


Hi Mathieu,

On 04-07-18 11:07, mathieu stumpf guntz wrote:

Hi,

Le 19/05/2018 à 03:35, Denny Vrandečić a écrit :


Regarding attribution, commonly it is assumed that you
have to respect it transitively. That is one of the
reasons a license that requires BY sucks so hard for data:
unlike with text, the attribution requirements grow very
quickly. It is the same as with modified images and
collages: it is not sufficient to attribute the last
author, but all contributors have to be attributed.

If we want our data to be trustable, then we need
traceability. That is reporting this chain of sources as
extensively as possible, whatever the license require or not
as attribution. CC-0 allow to break this traceability, which
make an aweful license to whoever is concerned with obtaining
reliable data.

A license is not the way to achieve this. We have references for that.


This is why I think that whoever wants to be part of a
large federation of data on the web, should publish under CC0.

As long as one aim at making a federation of untrustable data
banks, that's perfect. ;)

So I see you started forum shopping (trying to get the Wikimedia-l
people in) and making contentious trying to be funny remarks.
That's usually a good indication a thread is going nowhere.

No, Wikidata is not going to change the CC0. You seem to be the
only person wanting that and trying to discredit Wikidata will not
help you in your crusade. I suggest the people who are still
interested in this to go to
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728
 and make useful
comments over there.

Maarten


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