Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-10 Thread Todd Allen
I think making available and funding conflict resolution training is a good idea (provided it's available online of course, it would not be reasonable to expect a worldwide group of people to physically attend it). Making it mandatory via a grant is a nonstarter, though, adminship standards are a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-10 Thread Pine W
Responding to a few different points: (1) I don't envision this training as being sufficient to make anyone an expert in harassment or incivility response; the goal isn't to train all administrators to handle large-scale harassment. Rather, the goal is to train the administrators who take this

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-07 Thread Adrian Raddatz
Many volunteer organisations have mandatory training for volunteers, so that in itself is not a bad idea. But what about the cross-project differences that Risker brings up? And more importantly, how could such training help when faced with the type of harassment that is referenced 99% of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-07 Thread Anders Wennersten
I fully agree with Risker. I feel this discussion is only (mainly) looking at enwp. Harassment probably exist on all versions but the seriously of the issue look very differently. Being the most active user and sysop on a smaller version (svwp) I do not recognize the issues being discussed.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-07 Thread Risker
Hmmm. I find this recommendation concerning. There *might* be some validity on large projects with hundreds of administrators, but there are a lot of projects with only a few admins, and they were "selected" because they were willing to do the grunt work of deletions, protections, and blocks.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-07 Thread Pine W
Hi Sydney, I think that if individual communities create a consensus to mandate training, or if arbitration committees issue that mandate on particular wikis, that's completely fine and good. I'm hesitant to say that WMF should wield a stick to mandate this kind of training for administrators on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-07 Thread Sydney Poore
My suggestion is to come up with a general type training that can work for all administrators and functionaries since all have the freedom and permission to do all types of work on WMF projects. And that training should be mandatory. Then people who are focusing on a particular type of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-07 Thread Pine W
Hi Sydney, Thanks for that link. I think that for now I would suggest avoiding making the training mandatory because we won't know how successful it is until after we've used it for awhile. After the training has been tested and refined based on feedback, and if the consensus is that the training

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-06 Thread Sydney Poore
Hi James, I more or less agree with your comments and suggestions. But one consideration is the damage that comes from ideas left unchallenged and the readers of the ideas feel dispirited or alienated that no one spoke up pointing out the problems/concerns. That is the reason that take the time

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-06 Thread Sydney Poore
Rosie Stephenson-Goodknight suggested Annual Training during the Harassment Consultation, 2015. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment_consultation_2015/Ideas/Annual_training If you've not seen it, it is worth your time to read the talk page discussion. Sydney Sydney Poore User:FloNight

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-06 Thread Pine W
I have created https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Training_for_administrators and would welcome feedback there. On the subject of block evasion, I have some ideas but would defer to our experienced CheckUsers. Pine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-06 Thread Pax Ahimsa Gethen
Thank you, Sydney/FloNight. More outspoken editors with attitudes like yours would help make Wikipedia in general and the Inspire Campaign in specific a safer and more welcoming space for editors from diverse backgrounds. - Pax On 6/6/16 3:10 PM, Sydney Poore wrote: Thank you,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-06 Thread Sydney Poore
Thank you, Pax/Funcrunch, for bringing this topic to the broad wikimedia community. I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience contributing to Wikipedia. And I'm glad that you are staying around to add and improve content, and also to offer your ideas about how to address harassment. I appreciate

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Trillium Corsage
Obviously racial criticisms and so forth are awful like Pax said, but on the matter of "troublemakers who are banned" I say it's a greatly overblown issue chiefly emphasized by administrative participants who feel their authority is threatened. One should really look to the nature of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Pine W
Agreed that uncivil administrators can be a part of a negative feedback loop of stress and cynicism, as can uncivil WMF staff and others in positions of authority. However, there are no perfect human beings and if we demanded that all administrators and WMF staff be perfect at all times then there

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Adrian Raddatz
Hi all, As someone who deals with a lot of long-term abuse on the community side, I can give a bit of a comment here. Most of the abuse response comes from the community, not the WMF- they only get involved through their Trust & Safety team on the worst cases. Our ability to deal with block

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread James Alexander
In general discussing specific cases on public mailings lists is not useful at helping the situation (Pax is, of course, feel free to do so if they feel it would be right). I think if people want to help then thinking about, and talking about, ways to do so is the best way to tackle the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Pine W
Thanks, Patrick. The community regularly expends considerable volunteer time and effort to protect the intrgrity of article content and to deal with block evasion. I think it would be helpful if further efforts could be made to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of tools and processes for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Patrick Earley
Pine, As many of our admins and functionaries are well aware, both the Wikimedia sites, and the internet architecture as a whole, favour anonymity and protection of privacy over the ability to track individuals. When a user is technically proficient in hiding themselves, platforms and even law

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Pine W
Hi Pax and Pete, It sounds like part of the issue in this case may be that may we need more effective tools for dealing with troublemakers who are banned but continue to return and cause problems. I'm wondering if Patrick Early can comment on what efforts WMF is making in terms of dealing with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Pete Forsyth
Pine, as one of the admins who has worked to fend off this sustained attack, I can attest it is exactly that. Your point is a valid one, but it does not apply to this situation. Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Jun 5, 2016 7:13 AM, "Pax Ahimsa Gethen" wrote: > I am

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Pax Ahimsa Gethen
I am defining harassment primarily as personal attacks, not merely disputes (even strongly-worded disagreement) over content. Some examples of what I consider harassment: - Vandalizing an editor's user or talk page (hence my Inspire proposal:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-05 Thread Pine W
Hi Pax, I agree that blaming the victim is an unsatisfactory resolution. On the other hand, defining what is meant by "incivility" and "harassment" can be very tricky. Just because there is a strong disagreement doesn't imply that people are being uncivil, and we cannot expect that no one will

[Wikimedia-l] Harassment and blaming the victim

2016-06-04 Thread Pax Ahimsa Gethen
Hi all, I'm Pax aka Funcrunch [1]. I've been a Wikipedian since 2008, but this is my first post to this mailing list. (I've been reading list messages on the archives page occasionally for the last several months.) I'm writing because of a concern I have about the community's attitude toward