Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread Cristian Consonni
Il 25/Gen/2015 12:18 Martin Kraft martin.kr...@gmx.de ha scritto:
 Did I miss some aspect? Is there a point in converting something visual
into something visual?

I have been told that people born deaf find more easy to read things in
sign language. I imagine it like the difference between reading something
written in your mother tongue and reading something in another language you
know.
Of course the one above was an experiment (and at least a try at getting a
University to release their software with a FLOSS license, let's not
forget), since I expect some differences from a text converted and one
natively written in sign language.

If you look in the Wikimedia Incubator and Meta there are discusions about
a Wikipedia in ASL, that is American Sign Language.

http://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_American_Sign_Language_2

C
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread Andrew Gray
Max Klein and I had a chat with someone from a similar group a couple
of years ago, and he reported much the same thing - the actual site
structure is pretty good for screenreaders and similar software, or
was in early 2013.

(His main suggestion was to look into improved audio materials -
recordings of what things sounds like, soundscapes, etc. - which we
don't really do much with. Andy Mabbett picked up part of this with
the Voice Intro Project, which is great, but the rest is still fertile
ground...)

Anecdotally, I believe the spoken Wikipedia article recordings are
mainly used as surrogates for podcast-type use, rather than
accessibility purposes. However, if anyone has some firm numbers on
this (or even an indication of how much they're used at all...) I'd
love to know about it!

Andrew.


On 25 January 2015 at 12:00, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote:
 We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
 they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
 structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
 and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
 text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
 reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
 any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
 usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
 different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
 before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
 actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.



 2015-01-24 23:21 GMT+01:00 James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com:

 While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
 available for only a fraction of our articles.

 Why don't we have a Listen button beside our read button that when
 clicked will read the article for the person in question?

 There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
 http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
 support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
 Wikimedia Foundation.

 I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?

 --
 James Heilman
 MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

 The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
 www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread
I have used screen readers myself, and often sit on public transport
listening to reports and articles I never otherwise find the time to
read through. Audio screen reader apps are increasingly useful for
mobile and tablet access, it being hard work for someone who has
difficulty reading the equivalent of 'license plates for bumble bees'
that the small screen offers, especially to someone who is too vain to
use their reading glasses on the bus.

Properly up to date how to guides for the better screen readers
currently available, along with projects to improve how our articles
and image pages should be tagged in ways that improve screen reader
navigation, would probably be more practical to benefit a wide
community of readers rather than having a standard button.

Fae

On 25 January 2015 at 12:35, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
 Max Klein and I had a chat with someone from a similar group a couple
 of years ago, and he reported much the same thing - the actual site
 structure is pretty good for screenreaders and similar software, or
 was in early 2013.

 (His main suggestion was to look into improved audio materials -
 recordings of what things sounds like, soundscapes, etc. - which we
 don't really do much with. Andy Mabbett picked up part of this with
 the Voice Intro Project, which is great, but the rest is still fertile
 ground...)

 Anecdotally, I believe the spoken Wikipedia article recordings are
 mainly used as surrogates for podcast-type use, rather than
 accessibility purposes. However, if anyone has some firm numbers on
 this (or even an indication of how much they're used at all...) I'd
 love to know about it!

 Andrew.


 On 25 January 2015 at 12:00, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote:
 We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
 they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
 structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
 and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
 text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
 reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
 any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
 usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
 different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
 before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
 actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.



 2015-01-24 23:21 GMT+01:00 James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com:

 While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
 available for only a fraction of our articles.

 Why don't we have a Listen button beside our read button that when
 clicked will read the article for the person in question?

 There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
 http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
 support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
 Wikimedia Foundation.

 I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?

 --
 James Heilman
 MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

 The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
 www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] proportion of wiki size to what?

2015-01-25 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
I develop the features of MediaWiki that are tightly related to the
multilingual nature of Wikimedia projects, I want to develop these features
in a way that will benefit as many people and languages as (reasonably)
possible, so I want to know whatever can be known about what affects the
size of wikis.

And no, I didn't forget about bots, I just didn't want to overload the
email with disclaimers :)


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http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2015-01-25 22:16 GMT-08:00 Rui Correia correia@gmail.com:

 Hi Amir

 What exactly do you want from this? Is this just some personal
 curiosity or are you going to do someting with it?

 And by the way, you forgot bots - the article counts for some of the
 WP are driven by bots - the Dutch WP, for example.

 Rui

 2015-01-26 4:05 GMT+02:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il:
  (And yes, I know that Language planning and some of the other items are
 not
  measurable as numbers. I'm throwing ideas around.)
 
 
  --
  Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
  http://aharoni.wordpress.com
  ‪“We're living in pieces,
  I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
 
  2015-01-25 17:57 GMT-08:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il
 :
 
  Hi,
 
  It is well-known that the size of a Wikipedia in a given language is not
  proportional to the number of people who speak that language. By size
 I
  mean the article count and the active editor count.
 
  This begs the question: Is it proportional to anything else?
 
  I can think of a bunch of possible things (to most items you can add
 ...
  in the countries where this language is spoken):
 
  * Penetration of Internet access
  * Quality of education
  * Number of people who know other major languages, such as English,
  French, Russian, Spanish, etc.
  * Number of people who *don't* know other major languages
  * Gross domestic product
  * Human Development Index
  * The level of usage of this language in the education system (in some
  countries schools function in foreign languages)
  * Amount of published literature in that language
  * Level of censorship and press freedom
  * [[Language planning]] policies (think Catalonia, Ukraine, Quebec,
 Israel)
 
  It is quite possible that the size of a Wikipedia is proportional not to
  one of these things, but to a combination of them. It is also possible
 that
  it is not proportional to any of the above, or to anything at all.
 
  Did anybody ever try to research this?
 
  --
  Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
  http://aharoni.wordpress.com
  ‪“We're living in pieces,
  I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] proportion of wiki size to what?

2015-01-25 Thread Rui Correia
Hi Amir

What exactly do you want from this? Is this just some personal
curiosity or are you going to do someting with it?

And by the way, you forgot bots - the article counts for some of the
WP are driven by bots - the Dutch WP, for example.

Rui

2015-01-26 4:05 GMT+02:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il:
 (And yes, I know that Language planning and some of the other items are not
 measurable as numbers. I'm throwing ideas around.)


 --
 Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
 http://aharoni.wordpress.com
 ‪“We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

 2015-01-25 17:57 GMT-08:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il:

 Hi,

 It is well-known that the size of a Wikipedia in a given language is not
 proportional to the number of people who speak that language. By size I
 mean the article count and the active editor count.

 This begs the question: Is it proportional to anything else?

 I can think of a bunch of possible things (to most items you can add ...
 in the countries where this language is spoken):

 * Penetration of Internet access
 * Quality of education
 * Number of people who know other major languages, such as English,
 French, Russian, Spanish, etc.
 * Number of people who *don't* know other major languages
 * Gross domestic product
 * Human Development Index
 * The level of usage of this language in the education system (in some
 countries schools function in foreign languages)
 * Amount of published literature in that language
 * Level of censorship and press freedom
 * [[Language planning]] policies (think Catalonia, Ukraine, Quebec, Israel)

 It is quite possible that the size of a Wikipedia is proportional not to
 one of these things, but to a combination of them. It is also possible that
 it is not proportional to any of the above, or to anything at all.

 Did anybody ever try to research this?

 --
 Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
 http://aharoni.wordpress.com
 ‪“We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant

Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
Número de Telemóvel na África do Sul +27 74 425 4186
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread Dariusz Jemielniak
hi,

while this proposal will not add value for the blind, most likely (they
surely have their preferred solutions already), it may be useful for those
who do not have time to look for audio output, but would appreciate it if
it was available straightaway. I think there is some benefit in that,
clearly.

best,

dj pundit

On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote:

 I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put
 on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
 have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
 likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
 sighted that need the help.

 I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a
 great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
 stuff that is simple.

 --
 James Heilman
 MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

 The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
 www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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__
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kierownik katedry Zarządzania Międzynarodowego
i centrum badawczego CROW
Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
http://www.crow.alk.edu.pl

członek Akademii Młodych Uczonych Polskiej Akademii Nauk
członek Komitetu Polityki Naukowej MNiSW

Wyszła pierwsza na świecie etnografia Wikipedii Common Knowledge? An
Ethnography of Wikipedia (2014, Stanford University Press) mojego
autorstwa http://www.sup.org/book.cgi?id=24010

Recenzje
Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml
Pacific Standard:
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/books-and-culture/killed-wikipedia-93777/
Motherboard: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/an-ethnography-of-wikipedia
The Wikipedian:
http://thewikipedian.net/2014/10/10/dariusz-jemielniak-common-knowledge
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread Tomasz Ganicz
We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.



2015-01-24 23:21 GMT+01:00 James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com:

 While human read articles are great they quickly become out of date and are
 available for only a fraction of our articles.

 Why don't we have a Listen button beside our read button that when
 clicked will read the article for the person in question?

 There are 37 open source text-to-speech listed here
 http://www.findbestopensource.com/tagged/text-to-speech. Some of them
 support up to 50 languages. This of course would require the support of the
 Wikimedia Foundation.

 I guess we could also do it with a gadget initially. Thoughts?

 --
 James Heilman
 MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

 The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
 www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread Keegan Peterzell
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 4:00 AM, Tomasz Ganicz polime...@gmail.com wrote:

 We were discussing it with an association of blind people in Poland - and
 they told us - that for them the most important thing is clear and logic
 structure of the website - plain main text, menu/navigation in plain text
 and descriptions of media in plain text. They are using their own free
 text-to-speach software to which they are used to. Such software simply
 reads everything on the screen in the same neutral way. So they don't need
 any other tools for voice reading - if other websites provide it - they
 usually do not use it. Maybe in some other languages the situation is
 different - but it would be better to discuss it with relevant associations
 before investing time and money for such solutions. Fortunately, Wikipedia
 actually is quite  text-to-speach friendly at the moment.


Anecdotal to Tomasz's point, there was an editor on IRC the other day in
-commons that is Deaf/Blind and considers Wikimedia sites to be, in its
current state, one of the friendly- to disability-adaptive software of any
website. Mucking that up would be...bad.

What I suppose I'm challenging, James, is this: are our websites playing
well with accessibility? What are the specific points of failing? It is
subject to the disability, there's no patch to make it all right. What is
the path to make it right? How can I help? Where can we document this?

-- 
Keegan Peterzell
Community Liaison, Product
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread Andrew Lih
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 7:32 AM, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Il 25/Gen/2015 12:18 Martin Kraft martin.kr...@gmx.de ha scritto:
  Did I miss some aspect? Is there a point in converting something visual
 into something visual?

 I have been told that people born deaf find more easy to read things in
 sign language. I imagine it like the difference between reading something
 written in your mother tongue and reading something in another language you
 know.


Yes, I had a deaf student who opened my eyes to this -- he wanted to create
a video site for the deaf that would have signed videos and movies. He had
staffers and volunteers take viral YouTube videos and sign them for the
deaf.

My first question was, wouldn't reading subtitles simply solve the problem?
Why do you need to do ASL versions?

He gave me an annoyed look. It's something the deaf community finds
frustrating to explain to outsiders.

There's a reason its called American SIGN LANGUAGE and not signed English
language. It's a primary language in itself, and reading off the screen is
as inferior an experience as if we read the subtitles with the sound off.

-Andrew
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] A Listen Button

2015-01-25 Thread James Heilman
I guess I see this as making it easier for people to generate files to put
on their ipod or for those with a limited ability to read who might not
have figured out more complicated solutions. Those who are blind have
likely already figured out good solutions. It is those of us who are
sighted that need the help.

I know that I personally would find such a button helpful. But through a
great many steps I could likely figure out a work around. People prefer
stuff that is simple.

-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] proportion of wiki size to what?

2015-01-25 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
(And yes, I know that Language planning and some of the other items are not
measurable as numbers. I'm throwing ideas around.)


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

2015-01-25 17:57 GMT-08:00 Amir E. Aharoni amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il:

 Hi,

 It is well-known that the size of a Wikipedia in a given language is not
 proportional to the number of people who speak that language. By size I
 mean the article count and the active editor count.

 This begs the question: Is it proportional to anything else?

 I can think of a bunch of possible things (to most items you can add ...
 in the countries where this language is spoken):

 * Penetration of Internet access
 * Quality of education
 * Number of people who know other major languages, such as English,
 French, Russian, Spanish, etc.
 * Number of people who *don't* know other major languages
 * Gross domestic product
 * Human Development Index
 * The level of usage of this language in the education system (in some
 countries schools function in foreign languages)
 * Amount of published literature in that language
 * Level of censorship and press freedom
 * [[Language planning]] policies (think Catalonia, Ukraine, Quebec, Israel)

 It is quite possible that the size of a Wikipedia is proportional not to
 one of these things, but to a combination of them. It is also possible that
 it is not proportional to any of the above, or to anything at all.

 Did anybody ever try to research this?

 --
 Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
 http://aharoni.wordpress.com
 ‪“We're living in pieces,
 I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬

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