Re: [Wikimedia-l] Celebrating Parisian culture and libertarianism

[Gnangarra]

Kaya

I know I have contributed to the confusion here and for that I apologize,
thank you Christophe for express better what I was getting at.


Can I suggest that we choose period to put focus on the positive aspects of
the migration over the last 70 years, including the various UN charters and
treaties that have been signed regarding refugee of ways in which new
cultures have influenced or changed our own societies.  A kind of displaced
peoples month, its something every country has experienced, every community
has dealt with whether its transient populations in temporary settlements
or new residents, its global, its neutral and can be shared equally.
Additionally its an opportunity affiliates can use to open Wikipedia up to
new editors who can share their multilingual capacity to share knowledge
across projects


I like to share what an award winning Australian Journalist said about the
way people have responded to the attacks
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/waleed-aly-hits-out-at-isis-over-paris-attacks-calls-them-weak/story-fn948wjf-1227611388541



On 16 November 2015 at 20:25, Christophe Henner  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My email was an answer to this topic going to the religion ground, sorry if
> it was interpretated otherwise.
>
> More to the point. As a movement, we must never remember that we ARE
> diverse. That is one of the thing I love the most is that twice a year I do
> actually get to meet people from the other side of the world and learn.
> And whatever happens in Paris, I believe, as Wikimedians, this is what we
> should push forward. That no matter what, we cherish that diversity. That
> we're documentin all of knowledge and culture.
>
> To be slightly more blunt, I'm totally unconfortable with giving a focus on
> Paris when, at the same time, people die on a daily basis by the hand of
> the same people in many other countries.
> Sadly, everyday thre are acts of terror all around the world. And the one
> in Paris is not more important in the end. Our westerners bias make it
> looks like more important, but it's not.
>
> So if we could, and I don't know if we could, I would rather see an
> initiative start to digitally document as best as we can every piece of
> culture/architecture/history the're trying to destroy. That would be
> meaningful I think. Though, I have no idea how we could achieve it.
>
> I'm sorry I jumped so quickly, but I'm really pissed of by many many things
> today and seeing that topic going off track berserked me (that is something
> that happens rarely to me :) )
>
> Best,
>
>
> --
> Christophe
>
> On 16 November 2015 at 11:20, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned
> > it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate.
> >
> > While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people
> no
> > longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to
> > religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer
> on
> > their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to
> their
> > own.
> >
> > When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate
> > that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So
> > have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal.
> > Thanks,
> >   GerardM
> >
> > On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos  wrote:
> >
> > > Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and
> > > discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may
> indeed
> > be
> > > bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and
> > > denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not
> addressed. I
> > > don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by
> itself
> > is
> > > meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you
> can
> > > perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and
> > > love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what
> > actually
> > > connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent
> > > tragedies like these.
> > >
> > > But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not
> > > discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this
> aspect
> > > of the thread die on its own.
> > >
> > > We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves.
> > > Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up
> > > related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds,
> > as
> > > these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building
> > upon.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:
> > >
> > >> Just +1 on the stfu.
> > >> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" <
> > christophe.hen...@gmail.com
> > >> 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Celebrating Parisian culture and libertarianism

[Christophe Henner]

Hi,

My email was an answer to this topic going to the religion ground, sorry if
it was interpretated otherwise.

More to the point. As a movement, we must never remember that we ARE
diverse. That is one of the thing I love the most is that twice a year I do
actually get to meet people from the other side of the world and learn.
And whatever happens in Paris, I believe, as Wikimedians, this is what we
should push forward. That no matter what, we cherish that diversity. That
we're documentin all of knowledge and culture.

To be slightly more blunt, I'm totally unconfortable with giving a focus on
Paris when, at the same time, people die on a daily basis by the hand of
the same people in many other countries.
Sadly, everyday thre are acts of terror all around the world. And the one
in Paris is not more important in the end. Our westerners bias make it
looks like more important, but it's not.

So if we could, and I don't know if we could, I would rather see an
initiative start to digitally document as best as we can every piece of
culture/architecture/history the're trying to destroy. That would be
meaningful I think. Though, I have no idea how we could achieve it.

I'm sorry I jumped so quickly, but I'm really pissed of by many many things
today and seeing that topic going off track berserked me (that is something
that happens rarely to me :) )

Best,


--
Christophe

On 16 November 2015 at 11:20, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned
> it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate.
>
> While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people no
> longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to
> religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer on
> their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to their
> own.
>
> When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate
> that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So
> have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos  wrote:
>
> > Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and
> > discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may indeed
> be
> > bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and
> > denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not addressed. I
> > don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by itself
> is
> > meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you can
> > perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and
> > love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what
> actually
> > connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent
> > tragedies like these.
> >
> > But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not
> > discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this aspect
> > of the thread die on its own.
> >
> > We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves.
> > Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up
> > related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds,
> as
> > these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building
> upon.
> >
> >
> > On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:
> >
> >> Just +1 on the stfu.
> >> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" <
> christophe.hen...@gmail.com
> >> >
> >> a écrit :
> >>
> >> I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
> >>>
> >>> They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing
> more.
> >>>
> >>> It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural
> thing.
> >>> It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
> >>>
> >>> They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that
> jump
> >>> starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better
> >>> culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
> >>>
> >>> Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
> >>>
> >>> So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to
> >>> make
> >>> it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked :
> >>> tolerance,
> >>> understanding, love.
> >>>
> >>> That would the best answer we could make.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that
> >>> week-end I couldn't restrain myself
> >>> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David"  a
> >>> écrit :
> >>>
> >>> Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> 
>  a écrit :
> 
>  Hoi,
> > Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who
> > beliefs
> > on one pile.
> >
> 

[Wikimedia-l] Community revitalization

[Michal Lester]

Dear friends and colleague,



I would to share with you the post we published on Wikimedia Blog (November
13, 2015) [1]. It describes how WMIL works with few *Wiktionary* volunteers
in a process of revitalization of *Wiktionary* community. I believe it
could be useful case study for those of you who deal with similar issues.

I would be happy to provide more info. to anyone who is interested
Michal

[1]
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/11/13/hebrew-wiktionary-community-revitalization/

*Regards,*


*Michal Lester,*

*Executive DirectorWikimedia Israel*
*http://www.wikimedia.org.il   *
*972-50-8996046 ; 972-77-751-6032  *
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[Wikimedia-l] IRC office hour this Thursday: reconnecting with the shared hosting community

[Gilles Dubuc]

As part of T113210 [1], which is a broader discussion on track for the
developer summit, I am hosting an IRC office hour [2] this Thursday at
19:00 UTC.

Since shared hosting is a broad topic, this session will focus specifically
on brainstorming ways to reconnect with the shared hosting community.
Shared hosting mediawiki users are currently underrepresented in the
greater mediawiki community. We rarely run into them in phabricator, on
gerrit or on the mailing lists. Which means that people often have to think
on their behalf about their use cases and issues, instead of getting direct
input.

There must be practical ways to bring those thousands of mediawiki users
back into the fold, so to speak. Hopefully we can come up with interesting
ideas to achieve that.

And if you happen to be a shared hosting user, by all means, please join
this IRC office hour :)

[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113210
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Engineering] IRC office hour this Thursday: reconnecting with the shared hosting community

[Rob Lanphier]

Hi Gilles,

Thanks for leading this!  My reading of your agenda leads me to believe
that this is intended as a "problem solving" meeting, as described in
User:RobLa-WMF/Meetings#Taxonomy.  To quote that article:

*Problem-solving* - Discuss a problem that we don’t know how to solve.
> "Conversation for possibility" as described by 1999 article
> 
>
>- Successful outcome: an idea or a reasonably complete list of ideas
>for how to solve the problem
>
>
>- Successful outcome: consensus on the priority about the importance
>of solving this problem (or consensus that it isn’t a problem after all)
>
>
>- Non-goal: a decision for how to solve the problem
>
>
Does that seem like an accurate characterization for what you have planned
on Thursday?  I recommend structuring the conversation (and figure out
action items) to achieve your imagined goal.

Rob

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Gilles Dubuc  wrote:

> As part of T113210 [1], which is a broader discussion on track for the
> developer summit, I am hosting an IRC office hour [2] this Thursday at
> 19:00 UTC.
>
> Since shared hosting is a broad topic, this session will focus
> specifically on brainstorming ways to reconnect with the shared hosting
> community. Shared hosting mediawiki users are currently underrepresented in
> the greater mediawiki community. We rarely run into them in phabricator, on
> gerrit or on the mailing lists. Which means that people often have to think
> on their behalf about their use cases and issues, instead of getting direct
> input.
>
> There must be practical ways to bring those thousands of mediawiki users
> back into the fold, so to speak. Hopefully we can come up with interesting
> ideas to achieve that.
>
> And if you happen to be a shared hosting user, by all means, please join
> this IRC office hour :)
>
> [1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T113210
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours#Upcoming_office_hours
>
> ___
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> engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
>
>
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[Wikimedia-l] Harassment consultation on Meta

[Patrick Earley]

Hello all,

Community Advocacy at the WMF is running a month-long discussion on the
topic of harassment on our projects.  This will be the first in a series -
as it is the initial discussion, we are keeping it open and broad to
encourage brainstorming and creativity.

It is currently live on Meta, and will be open until at least Dec. 16:


   - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment_consultation_2015

We encourage all to participate, share ideas, and provide feedback on the
ideas of others.  Online harassment is a complex, pervasive issue, and we
can't make progress without exploring the best ways forward.

Thanks,
-- 
Patrick Earley
Community Advocate
Wikimedia Foundation
pear...@wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Harassment consultation on Meta

[Anna Stillwell]

I've heard about the hard work that this team has done to launch this and
the kind of transformation you're seeking. Well done. Congratulations.
/a

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Patrick Earley 
wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Community Advocacy at the WMF is running a month-long discussion on the
> topic of harassment on our projects.  This will be the first in a series -
> as it is the initial discussion, we are keeping it open and broad to
> encourage brainstorming and creativity.
>
> It is currently live on Meta, and will be open until at least Dec. 16:
>
>
>- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment_consultation_2015
>
> We encourage all to participate, share ideas, and provide feedback on the
> ideas of others.  Online harassment is a complex, pervasive issue, and we
> can't make progress without exploring the best ways forward.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Patrick Earley
> Community Advocate
> Wikimedia Foundation
> pear...@wikimedia.org
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> 




-- 
Anna Stillwell
Major Gifts Officer
Wikimedia Foundation
415.806.1536
*www.wikimediafoundation.org *
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Celebrating Parisian culture and libertarianism

[Isarra Yos]

Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and 
discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may indeed 
be bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and 
denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not addressed. 
I don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by 
itself is meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, 
and you can perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is 
understanding and love, because for these you have to learn, but these 
are also what actually connect people and allow them to help each other, 
and to help prevent tragedies like these.


But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not 
discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this 
aspect of the thread die on its own.


We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves. 
Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up 
related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds, 
as these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building 
upon.


On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:

Just +1 on the stfu.
Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" 
a écrit :


I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".

They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.

It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing.
It's hate. Simple and plain hate.

They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump
starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better
culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.

Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.

So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make
it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance,
understanding, love.

That would the best answer we could make.

Thanks

PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that
week-end I couldn't restrain myself
Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David"  a
écrit :


Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Celebrating Parisian culture and libertarianism

[Austin Hair]

This thread went to a bad place surprisingly fast, even for this list.

I understand that emotions are high, but please keep your tempers in
check and your discussion on-topic. Whatever you may think of Fæ's
proposal, I don't think it was intended to provoke a religious
argument, which I hope everyone can recognize as being outside the
scope of wikimedia-l.

Thanks,

Austin

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Celebrating Parisian culture and libertarianism

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned
it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate.

While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people no
longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to
religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer on
their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to their
own.

When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate
that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So
have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos  wrote:

> Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and
> discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may indeed be
> bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and
> denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not addressed. I
> don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by itself is
> meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you can
> perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and
> love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what actually
> connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent
> tragedies like these.
>
> But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not
> discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this aspect
> of the thread die on its own.
>
> We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves.
> Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up
> related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds, as
> these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building upon.
>
>
> On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:
>
>> Just +1 on the stfu.
>> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" > >
>> a écrit :
>>
>> I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
>>>
>>> They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
>>>
>>> It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing.
>>> It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
>>>
>>> They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump
>>> starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better
>>> culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
>>>
>>> Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
>>>
>>> So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to
>>> make
>>> it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked :
>>> tolerance,
>>> understanding, love.
>>>
>>> That would the best answer we could make.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that
>>> week-end I couldn't restrain myself
>>> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David"  a
>>> écrit :
>>>
>>> Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen  Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who
> beliefs
> on one pile.
>
> I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the
 problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally

>>> on
>>>
 the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being
 violent.

 Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to

> get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
>
> I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of

>>> how
>>>
 faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the

>>> claims
>>>
 are. However, I do think  religion is one of the ways some people get
 off
 the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated

>>> and
>>>
 unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and
 second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and
 bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as

>>> far
>>>
 as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I
 didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely
 dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam,
 whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however
 disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of
 Muslims.


 As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its

> interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two
> distinct
> questions.
> Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Celebrating Parisian culture and libertarianism

[Gnangarra]

What I said was I think we should be cautious about linking the items Fea
proposed both because of the generalisations - stereotypes it would elevate
because of Wikipedias online authority.

I pointed out that Wikimedians as a community strectches beyond Western
Europe and North America and that we have contributors across the world who
have been affected by terrorism a case in point there was being reported an
attack in Turkey this morning which is when I posted my comment but there
is no changing of french flags for turkish ones on fb(Yes I know not our
problem). Are we going to single out the French community as being more
important than the Turkish Ukrainian, Filipino, Thai,  Nigerian,
Australian, Tunisian, Pakistani and the many others I havent even mentioned
who have suffered attacks in the last 12 months, then we should be very
careful on why and any association we make

I appreciate Fea's reasoning and commend them

On 16 November 2015 at 15:14, Pierre-Selim  wrote:

> Just +1 on the stfu.
> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" 
> a écrit :
>
> > I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
> >
> > They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
> >
> > It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing.
> > It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
> >
> > They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump
> > starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better
> > culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
> >
> > Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
> >
> > So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to
> make
> > it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked :
> tolerance,
> > understanding, love.
> >
> > That would the best answer we could make.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that
> > week-end I couldn't restrain myself
> > Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David"  a
> > écrit :
> >
> > > Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > a écrit :
> > >
> > >> Hoi,
> > >> Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who
> > >> beliefs
> > >> on one pile.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the
> > > problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me
> personally
> > on
> > > the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being
> > > violent.
> > >
> > > Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
> > >> get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of
> > how
> > > faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
> > claims
> > > are. However, I do think  religion is one of the ways some people get
> off
> > > the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated
> > and
> > > unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and
> > > second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance
> and
> > > bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as
> > far
> > > as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because
> I
> > > didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely
> > > dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam,
> > > whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however
> > > disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of
> > > Muslims.
> > >
> > >
> > > As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
> > >> interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two
> distinct
> > >> questions.
> > >> Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
> > >>
> > >
> > > "Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is
> that
> > > they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
> > excuse
> > > to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make
> > > mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
> > problem
> > > at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
> > >
> > > any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this
> > > doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
> > religion
> > > and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that
> > > said major points don't include things like intolerance for other
> faiths,
> > > specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the
> imposition
> > of
> > > Sharia in Western judicial systems and other