Re: [Wikimedia-l] Discussion about proposed Technical Code of Conduct (TCC)

[Adrian Raddatz]

Oh, and similar to WereSpielChequers, I agree that better enforcement
methods would be far more useful than spending staff time and money
worrying about the codes of conduct. I understand that they are all the
rage on the west coast of the US these days, but it's not going to help us
finally stop someone who is using proxies to create more accounts to harass
someone. It's not hard to see that with access to proxies and mobile IP
ranges, someone can engage in sockpuppetry and abuse of our wikis
indefinitely.

The WMF has made progress on this recently, but there is still nothing to
deter someone from engaging in prolonged campaigns of on-wiki harassment
using sockpuppets. Maybe it's time to think about a more strict account-->
operator connection, such as requiring email addresses on new account
creations and a method of checking accounts by email.

Adrian Raddatz

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Adrian Raddatz  wrote:

> Similar to Vito, the safe space/code of conduct crowd has never
> demonstrated that any of these principles are not already held and enforced
> across our projects.
>
> Adrian Raddatz
>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Vi to  wrote:
>
>> Same here, ofc.
>> I still cannot understand how there could be online communities refusing
>> these very basic principles.
>>
>> Vito
>>
>> 2016-11-21 0:57 GMT+01:00 Alex Monk :
>>
>> > On 20 November 2016 at 13:35, Jonathan Cardy <
>> werespielchequ...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > The nastiest trolling, personal attacks and certainly the rape and
>> murder
>> > > threats will get people blocked anywhere in the movement except maybe,
>> > > definitely in the past but hopefully not today, on IRC.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I would kick+block people doing that sort of thing in the IRC channels
>> in
>> > which I am an op (e.g. #mediawiki, #wikimedia-labs and various minor
>> ones).
>> > I would be shocked to see ops of other channels willingly ignoring that.
>> > ___
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>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Discussion about proposed Technical Code of Conduct (TCC)

[Adrian Raddatz]

Similar to Vito, the safe space/code of conduct crowd has never
demonstrated that any of these principles are not already held and enforced
across our projects.

Adrian Raddatz

On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Vi to  wrote:

> Same here, ofc.
> I still cannot understand how there could be online communities refusing
> these very basic principles.
>
> Vito
>
> 2016-11-21 0:57 GMT+01:00 Alex Monk :
>
> > On 20 November 2016 at 13:35, Jonathan Cardy <
> werespielchequ...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The nastiest trolling, personal attacks and certainly the rape and
> murder
> > > threats will get people blocked anywhere in the movement except maybe,
> > > definitely in the past but hopefully not today, on IRC.
> > >
> >
> > I would kick+block people doing that sort of thing in the IRC channels in
> > which I am an op (e.g. #mediawiki, #wikimedia-labs and various minor
> ones).
> > I would be shocked to see ops of other channels willingly ignoring that.
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Discussion about proposed Technical Code of Conduct (TCC)

[Vi to]

Same here, ofc.
I still cannot understand how there could be online communities refusing
these very basic principles.

Vito

2016-11-21 0:57 GMT+01:00 Alex Monk :

> On 20 November 2016 at 13:35, Jonathan Cardy 
> wrote:
> >
> > The nastiest trolling, personal attacks and certainly the rape and murder
> > threats will get people blocked anywhere in the movement except maybe,
> > definitely in the past but hopefully not today, on IRC.
> >
>
> I would kick+block people doing that sort of thing in the IRC channels in
> which I am an op (e.g. #mediawiki, #wikimedia-labs and various minor ones).
> I would be shocked to see ops of other channels willingly ignoring that.
> ___
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Discussion about proposed Technical Code of Conduct (TCC)

[Alex Monk]

On 20 November 2016 at 13:35, Jonathan Cardy 
wrote:
>
> The nastiest trolling, personal attacks and certainly the rape and murder
> threats will get people blocked anywhere in the movement except maybe,
> definitely in the past but hopefully not today, on IRC.
>

I would kick+block people doing that sort of thing in the IRC channels in
which I am an op (e.g. #mediawiki, #wikimedia-labs and various minor ones).
I would be shocked to see ops of other channels willingly ignoring that.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Discussion about proposed Technical Code of Conduct (TCC)

[Jonathan Cardy]

I'm partly in agreement with Pine, this is more about policy than a bug and it 
should be being discussed on meta not phabricator.

I disagree with Pine re the IRC channels. If the people running a particular 
IRC channel want it to continue as the recommended channel from a particular 
Wikimedia wiki then it is reasonable for the community to require that channel 
to comply with community norms. What happens on IRC channels that are 
unconnected with the movement is arguably out of our control. IRC has been a 
problem area in the past, I doubt I'm the only person on this list who has 
discovered, sometimes long after the event that community IRC channels were 
misused either to canvas against them or to say things that you'd be blocked 
for saying on wiki. Clearly we can't implement an IRC policy on freenode 
channels that conflicts with freenode policy. But I'd be surprised if we 
couldn't require a stricter policy than freenode seems to for IRC channels 
promoted on wiki.

More broadly my concern with the approach is that it misses the main target. 
The nastiest trolling, personal attacks and certainly the rape and murder 
threats will get people blocked anywhere in the movement except maybe, 
definitely in the past but hopefully not today, on IRC. We need to think how to 
protect members of our community from people who barely count as members of our 
community and who may not even consider themselves as such.

There is an argument for being stricter about incivility amongst the community, 
I suspect with the ongoing greying of our communities this will happen 
regardless. My main concern is not with shifting the boundary of what is or 
isn't acceptable but with dealing more effectively with the worst stuff that is 
currently happening. That has implications both technical and for 
legal/privacy. I'd like to change our privacy and Checkuser policies to presume 
in favour of "fishing trips". If members of our community are being seriously 
harassed on wiki I think it should be the norm to check the IP address and see 
if any good hand accounts are also run by the same person. We all as 
individuals have patterns around our editing, it shouldn't be beyond the 
capabilities of modern technology to flag up a warning to the check users when 
a new editor appears with a similar pattern to a banned troll. Dealing with off 
wiki harassment is more complex, the technology and social mores may be outside 
our control. But some of the nastiest stuff that happens online such as revenge 
porn is illegal or at least culturally unacceptable pretty much everywhere. 
Tracking down where servers are, whose jurisdiction they are in and liaising 
with local law enforcement are big tasks. I'd like to see the movement and 
specifically the foundation and chapters as trail blazers in this.

Regards

Jonathan/wereSpielChequers


> On 20 Nov 2016, at 12:00, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Discussion about proposed Technical Code of Conduct(TCC) (Pine W)
>   2. Re: Implementing Katherine's Vision: "DiscussingDiscussions"
>  (Pine W)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:45:42 -0800
> From: Pine W 
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List ,  Matthew
>Flaschen 
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Discussion about proposed Technical Code of
>Conduct(TCC)
> Message-ID:
>